Expose to the right (ETTR) new article

**Hornet** · 08-12-2011, 08:15 PM - **1 Like**

Apologies if this was already mentioned elsewhere but a new article on ETTR was added to Luminous Landscape this month and it challenges the whole metering interpretation method used by DSLR cameras. Maybe Pentax could take advantage of this and be a leader again.

Optimizing Exposure

sagiboy · 08-13-2011, 03:44 AM

ahhh the X100...!!!!!

foto guy · 08-13-2011, 04:37 AM

Good article. Thanks for "enlightening" us!

reeftool · 08-13-2011, 06:10 AM

A good article. It shows that there is still a lot of work yet to be done before the "perfect camera" hits the market.

Just my 2 cents worth as to why camera makers haven't changed this. Habit. For years, meters have worked this way. I think the technology is in place to design a superior light meter but the 18% gray design has been around so long that it is just accepted. All cameras pretty much work the same as far as metering goes and the same practices apply to every brand. Somebody comes up with a system that doesn't meter 18% gray, it better be darn near to perfect because every shot that isn't perfect, the reviewers will rip it to bits. Photographers are a pretty conservative bunch and change doesn't come easy.

**Just1MoreDave** · 08-13-2011, 01:06 PM

I think there are two good reasons for the old technology hanging on. With a mirror and shutter involved, it's not that trivial to get the sensor exposed to the scene, which is the starting point to gather the information he wants to use. Also, the camera processing power isn't infinite and free. The camera may not be able to do all the real-time processing he wants to add.

Rupert · 08-16-2011, 08:27 PM

Very interesting article. I still think that ETTR will render more bad shots than good for all but the best of shooters. This is especially true with the K5 in Raw where you have so much room to pull up the shadows. Blown highlights are blown forever, but we see, and often, that shadows can be nicely salvaged with the K5.

The next big advance in cameras will most likely be in DR, either through breakthrough sensors or highly advanced and very fast computing within the camera. In camera HDR is in its infancy, but with faster computing and advanced programming, it could make highly expanded DR a reality in the near future.

All just my opinion, and other than having an opinion, I admit I don't know a damn thing about this.

Best Regards!

bimjo · 08-17-2011, 06:08 AM

Well Rupert, the point of ETTR is to not blow out the highlights, but to stop just short of that.

As sensors improve, this will be less of an issue (may already be to some extent) than it once was, but nailing the exposure is still the holy grail of many photographers.

Unfortunately I seldom remember that.

reeftool · 08-17-2011, 07:16 AM

While we can complain about metering, we are often taking pictures outside in conditions where we need sunglasses approaching the darkness of welders goggles and expect our cameras to somehow make pretty pictures.

Rupert · 08-17-2011, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by bimjo

Well Rupert, the point of ETTR is to not blow out the highlights, but to stop just short of that.

As sensors improve, this will be less of an issue (may already be to some extent) than it once was, but nailing the exposure is still the holy grail of many photographers.

Unfortunately I seldom remember that.

Agreed! If you get it just right...but if you don't, you have a non repairable photo. Somewhere off a little to the left of right, well within a safe distance from blown works best by far on my K5.
Preventing blown highlights should be coming along very soon in new technology, since it is still a often encountered problem.

Again, this is coming from a technical idiot....that often makes good guesses!

Best Regards!

adr1an · 08-17-2011, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by Rupert

Agreed! If you get it just right...but if you don't, you have a non repairable photo. Somewhere off a little to the left of right, well within a safe distance from blown works best by far on my K5.

90% of it is knowing how the Metering works on your camera. Set it to spot mode, meter on the brightest object, AE-L, and Focus and bam. Sounds like its complicated - but it takes no time at all..

Plus - thats why you have the ability to display your Histogram - sure you might not use ETTR in the middle of a 'make or break' shot - but the other 98% of the time - it takes a simple check on the LCD Screen in review to see if the Histogram is blown or if there is any red 'Blinkies' (Highlight set to view in preview/review)

Like anything - its a simple technique that is quickly mastered and can often be of great advantage on many other cameras. I'm sure it still helps on the K5 - since its a simple technological fact the way the sensors work that there is more detail in the right side of the histogram than the left side.. You might be able to stretch the shadows a lot on a 'normal' K-5 shot - but you'll still record more detail like texture, contrast etc by using ETTR (I would assume - based on the known way sensors record data and the matrix used to store that data...)

ETTR is about 'detail' - not about getting great boosted shadows - if that makes sense ? On any sensor - there is more bits to store data on the right of the Histogram versus the left... But at the end of the day - if the K-5 shot 'normally' and then stretched in PP works for you - go for it - just having a shot to do it with is whats important right

(p.s - maybe this could break your slump - spend some time reading how to actually expose to the right properly and look at how it works for you - Check the "Roll your own ETTR Meter" for a quick way to get a grip on it all.. http://daystarvisions.com/Docs/Tuts/K20D_Tips/pg1.html and do read the LL guides about it as well! )

**Hornet** · 08-18-2011, 06:35 PM

Thanks Adrian1 for the link to the "roll your own ETTR meter" article. It compliments the LL article nicely with some Pentax specific technique. One point I'd like to make about your message above is that one must set the exposure compensation to +3 to use the technique of metering the brightest object. Otherwise everything will be seriously ETTL.

**Ash** · 08-18-2011, 06:57 PM

Getting ETTR right is more than just avoiding blowing out highlights. It's about knowing where the details you want to record to the right are, and meter with bias according to that.

In other words, if there is a subject that in the scheme of the whole image registers low on the histogram, blowing out other parts of the image might be less of an issue, and therefore exposing the subject adequately in camera (more to the right) will preserve better detail of this subject.

If on the other hand, you have highlights that are important to the setting and the image in total, they ought to be preserved, ETTR isn't appropriate and the subject should boosted in PP rather than spot metered. Each image has its need for exposure taken on a case-by-case basis.

bymy141 · 08-19-2011, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by adr1an

90% of it is knowing how the Metering works on your camera. Set it to spot mode, meter on the brightest object, AE-L, and Focus and bam. Sounds like its complicated - but it takes no time at all..

Are you sure that is what gets you ETTR?
I guess you will get Exosure To The Left instead...

If you spot mode your brightest object, your camera metering will adjust its exposure to the "average" light of that brightest object.
In my opinion that would make the camera's metering system to *lower* the exposure (shorter T, smaller A, Lower ISO) to adjust for that bright object.
The whole picture will become darker.
Hence you will get ETTL instead of ETTR.

Or am I making a mistake here?

Bert

JeffJS · 08-19-2011, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by adr1an

90% of it is knowing how the Metering works on your camera.

100% of it is knowing how metering works.

Quote:

Set it to spot mode, meter on the brightest object, AE-L, and Focus and bam. Sounds like its complicated - but it takes no time at all..

This is going to put your highlights or rather the 'brightest object' in the middle of the exposure. That is, unless you are applying exposure compensation which, goes back to understanding exposure and knowing what the camera is going to do with the light. Without EC, whether this will put you ETTR or ETTL depends on What that brightest object Is. Your method of metering and using AE-L is certainly workable using spot metering but you should be looking for a mid tone rather than the 'brightest' object. That is, Again, unless you are applying exposure compensation.

timh · 08-19-2011, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by JeffJS

Without EC, whether this will put you ETTR or ETTL depends on What that brightest object Is. Your method of metering and using AE-L is certainly workable using spot metering but you should be looking for a mid tone rather than the 'brightest' object. That is, Again, unless you are applying exposure compensation.

I expect he's using +3 EV when doing that, should generally work quite nicely.

08-12-2011, 08:15 PM - 1 Like	#1
Hornet Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 169	Expose to the right (ETTR) new article Apologies if this was already mentioned elsewhere but a new article on ETTR was added to Luminous Landscape this month and it challenges the whole metering interpretation method used by DSLR cameras. Maybe Pentax could take advantage of this and be a leader again. Optimizing Exposure

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08-13-2011, 03:44 AM	#2
sagiboy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: LI Posts: 230	ahhh the X100...!!!!!

08-13-2011, 04:37 AM	#3
foto guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Vernon, Connecticut Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 292	Good article. Thanks for "enlightening" us!

08-13-2011, 06:10 AM	#4
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,555	A good article. It shows that there is still a lot of work yet to be done before the "perfect camera" hits the market. Just my 2 cents worth as to why camera makers haven't changed this. Habit. For years, meters have worked this way. I think the technology is in place to design a superior light meter but the 18% gray design has been around so long that it is just accepted. All cameras pretty much work the same as far as metering goes and the same practices apply to every brand. Somebody comes up with a system that doesn't meter 18% gray, it better be darn near to perfect because every shot that isn't perfect, the reviewers will rip it to bits. Photographers are a pretty conservative bunch and change doesn't come easy.

08-13-2011, 01:06 PM	#5
Just1MoreDave Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Aurora, CO Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,340	I think there are two good reasons for the old technology hanging on. With a mirror and shutter involved, it's not that trivial to get the sensor exposed to the scene, which is the starting point to gather the information he wants to use. Also, the camera processing power isn't infinite and free. The camera may not be able to do all the real-time processing he wants to add.

08-16-2011, 08:27 PM	#6
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	Very interesting article. I still think that ETTR will render more bad shots than good for all but the best of shooters. This is especially true with the K5 in Raw where you have so much room to pull up the shadows. Blown highlights are blown forever, but we see, and often, that shadows can be nicely salvaged with the K5. The next big advance in cameras will most likely be in DR, either through breakthrough sensors or highly advanced and very fast computing within the camera. In camera HDR is in its infancy, but with faster computing and advanced programming, it could make highly expanded DR a reality in the near future. All just my opinion, and other than having an opinion, I admit I don't know a damn thing about this. Best Regards!

08-17-2011, 06:08 AM	#7
bimjo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pasco, WA Posts: 967	Well Rupert, the point of ETTR is to *not* blow out the highlights, but to stop just short of that. As sensors improve, this will be less of an issue (may already be to some extent) than it once was, but nailing the exposure is still the holy grail of many photographers. Unfortunately I seldom remember that.

08-17-2011, 07:16 AM	#8
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,555	While we can complain about metering, we are often taking pictures outside in conditions where we need sunglasses approaching the darkness of welders goggles and expect our cameras to somehow make pretty pictures.

08-17-2011, 08:01 AM	#9
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	Originally posted by bimjo Well Rupert, the point of ETTR is to *not* blow out the highlights, but to stop just short of that. As sensors improve, this will be less of an issue (may already be to some extent) than it once was, but nailing the exposure is still the holy grail of many photographers. Unfortunately I seldom remember that. Agreed! If you get it just right...but if you don't, you have a non repairable photo. Somewhere off a little to the left of right, well within a safe distance from blown works best by far on my K5. Preventing blown highlights should be coming along very soon in new technology, since it is still a often encountered problem. Again, this is coming from a technical idiot....that often makes good guesses! Best Regards!

08-17-2011, 08:06 AM	#10
adr1an Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canberra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 739	Originally posted by Rupert Agreed! If you get it just right...but if you don't, you have a non repairable photo. Somewhere off a little to the left of right, well within a safe distance from blown works best by far on my K5. 90% of it is knowing how the Metering works on your camera. Set it to spot mode, meter on the brightest object, AE-L, and Focus and bam. Sounds like its complicated - but it takes no time at all.. Plus - thats why you have the ability to display your Histogram - sure you might not use ETTR in the middle of a 'make or break' shot - but the other 98% of the time - it takes a simple check on the LCD Screen in review to see if the Histogram is blown or if there is any red 'Blinkies' (Highlight set to view in preview/review) Like anything - its a simple technique that is quickly mastered and can often be of great advantage on many other cameras. I'm sure it still helps on the K5 - since its a simple technological fact the way the sensors work that there is more detail in the right side of the histogram than the left side.. You might be able to stretch the shadows a lot on a 'normal' K-5 shot - but you'll still record more detail like texture, contrast etc by using ETTR (I would assume - based on the known way sensors record data and the matrix used to store that data...) ETTR is about 'detail' - not about getting great boosted shadows - if that makes sense ? On any sensor - there is more bits to store data on the right of the Histogram versus the left... But at the end of the day - if the K-5 shot 'normally' and then stretched in PP works for you - go for it - just having a shot to do it with is whats important right (p.s - maybe this could break your slump - spend some time reading how to actually expose to the right properly and look at how it works for you - Check the "Roll your own ETTR Meter" for a quick way to get a grip on it all.. http://daystarvisions.com/Docs/Tuts/K20D_Tips/pg1.html and do read the LL guides about it as well! )

08-18-2011, 06:35 PM	#11
Hornet Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 169 Original Poster	Thanks Adrian1 for the link to the "roll your own ETTR meter" article. It compliments the LL article nicely with some Pentax specific technique. One point I'd like to make about your message above is that one must set the exposure compensation to +3 to use the technique of metering the brightest object. Otherwise everything will be seriously ETTL.

08-18-2011, 06:57 PM	#12
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Getting ETTR right is more than just avoiding blowing out highlights. It's about knowing where the details you want to record to the right are, and meter with bias according to that. In other words, if there is a subject that in the scheme of the whole image registers low on the histogram, blowing out other parts of the image might be less of an issue, and therefore exposing the subject adequately in camera (more to the right) will preserve better detail of this subject. If on the other hand, you have highlights that are important to the setting and the image in total, they ought to be preserved, ETTR isn't appropriate and the subject should boosted in PP rather than spot metered. Each image has its need for exposure taken on a case-by-case basis.

08-19-2011, 06:13 AM	#13
bymy141 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,563	Originally posted by adr1an 90% of it is knowing how the Metering works on your camera. Set it to spot mode, meter on the brightest object, AE-L, and Focus and bam. Sounds like its complicated - but it takes no time at all.. Are you sure that is what gets you ETTR? I guess you will get Exosure To The Left instead... If you spot mode your brightest object, your camera metering will adjust its exposure to the "average" light of that brightest object. In my opinion that would make the camera's metering system to lower the exposure (shorter T, smaller A, Lower ISO) to adjust for that bright object. The whole picture will become darker. Hence you will get ETTL instead of ETTR. Or am I making a mistake here? Bert

08-19-2011, 09:56 AM	#14
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by adr1an 90% of it is knowing how the Metering works on your camera. 100% of it is knowing how metering works. Quote: Set it to spot mode, meter on the brightest object, AE-L, and Focus and bam. Sounds like its complicated - but it takes no time at all.. This is going to put your highlights or rather the 'brightest object' in the middle of the exposure. That is, unless you are applying exposure compensation which, goes back to understanding exposure and knowing what the camera is going to do with the light. Without EC, whether this will put you ETTR or ETTL depends on What that brightest object Is. Your method of metering and using AE-L is certainly workable using spot metering but you should be looking for a mid tone rather than the 'brightest' object. That is, Again, unless you are applying exposure compensation.

08-19-2011, 11:02 AM	#15
timh Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wales Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 445	Originally posted by JeffJS Without EC, whether this will put you ETTR or ETTL depends on What that brightest object Is. Your method of metering and using AE-L is certainly workable using spot metering but you should be looking for a mid tone rather than the 'brightest' object. That is, Again, unless you are applying exposure compensation. I expect he's using +3 EV when doing that, should generally work quite nicely.