Shooting in a church

**miltona580** · 08-22-2011, 06:20 PM

I'm taking pictures for my church, and I have several problems that I am looking for some help to work through.

1. The room is very dark.
2. A flash is considered distracting, so they would prefer I do not use a flash. I do have one capable of filling the small room (Sigma DG-610).
3. Low ISO is desirable because they want to blow up the better pictures.

I'm using a Pentax K-x with either the limited 31mm or 77mm at f/1.8.

I'm getting very blurry pictures because I am misjudging the bokeh effect at f/1.8, AND the shutter speed is really too slow (usually 1/6 or 1/10 of a second).

What can I do to get better pictures, other than the obvious "turn the lights on" or "use a flash"?

Last edited by miltona580; 09-07-2011 at 08:24 PM.

**ManuH** · 08-22-2011, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by miltona580

What can I do to get better pictures, other than the obvious "turn the lights on" or "use a flash"?

- Use a tripod if you can, but this will not help for moving people, for that you need at least 1/60s
- Use a high ISO, 3200 should be the maximum OK on the K-x

Not much else you can do actually.

**firefly** · 08-22-2011, 06:42 PM

Well, in my opinion you have only one option: you need more light!

Seriously, there are a few things to try:

1. open up your aperture, if you're already near wide open you could also
2. raise the ISO. I know they want low ISO pics, but it's a tradeoff, they keep the lights out, your ISO raises. The k-x really is good at high ISO stuff, try 3200, expose to the right (1/3 or 1/2 stop over exposed), and you could always
3. shoot RAW, that way you allow yourself the highest post processing overhead and recovery, and finally, if all else fails,
4. explain that photos are taken by the camera collecting light, and hopefully they allow you to used the flash. Get it off camera or bounce it.

**firefly** · 08-22-2011, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by ManuH

- Use a high ISO, 3200 should be the maximum OK on the K-x

Not much else you can do actually.

Well ManuH beat me to it, but yeah, push till 3200 on the K-x, it will surprise you.

MysteryOnion · 08-22-2011, 06:45 PM

If you use the SR already, it may not work well with a tripod... So as ManuH suggest about the ISO, also how is your shooting in manual skills. If you lock the setting or use a Tv to 40th or higher, would that work for you?

**miltona580** · 08-22-2011, 06:46 PM

That's the answers I thought I'd get guys. I will try next week at ISO 3200. This week I was at 800, and it still was not enough. Barring that, I'm breaking out the insane Sigma flash.

**miltona580** · 08-22-2011, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by MysteryOnion

If you use the SR already, it may not work well with a tripod... So as ManuH suggest about the ISO, also how is your shooting in manual skills. If you lock the setting or use a Tv to 40th or higher, would that work for you?

I've been in Manual mode, metering before each shot. I guess I need to learn what Tv mode does.

SlickYamaha · 08-22-2011, 07:08 PM

Here is some of the work I have done at my church, No flash. K20d, ISO 3200 (kinda high for the K20) 1/45 sec, f5.6. Its still a little blurry, but handheld there isnt much that can be done at 1/45.
I also have a 50mm 1.4 I want to try, but we dont have "concerts" too often.
I would suggest getting a little more out of the ISO on your Kx, (it can do much better work in that dept than the K20) and then if needed use some noise reducer.

Keep posting photos!

hcc · 08-22-2011, 07:09 PM

I am surprised by the problem that you have using the FA31mm and K-x. This is not normal IMHO.

I have shot several evenings in the local school hall. The lighting was poor and IMO poorer than in your church. (Rember it was evening time.) Using my K-7 and FA31mm (K-7 in hyper mode P), I got some excellent results of children dance photographs.

I use the following settings:
FA31mm in AF mode

K-7 dial mode in P (fully-automatic)
Auto ISO (with up to 1600)

For ISO from and above 800, noise removal with Noiseware.

After reviewing the shots, the shutter speed was typically 1/50 to 1/80 s and the shots look great.

In summary:
* you have a camera K-x with greater high ISO performances than my K-7. Do use this feature.
* try fully auto (dial mode P) incl. auto ISO
* the FA31mm is a great lens for this type of shots.

Hope that the comments will help.

AOShep · 08-22-2011, 07:15 PM

Sense they are asking for images for large prints, use a flash for those shots. Maybe even rehearsal shots. Try bouncing the flash or off camera. It's a trade off you will have to communicate to the pastor, worship leader, or whoever is in charge. Otherwise, it's high ISO and faster shutter speed. Looks like the interior is light in color so it really wouldn't take much of a flash to light it up.

**miltona580** · 08-22-2011, 07:20 PM

I do have a FA 50mm f/1.4, but it's too long for the crowd shots (where I use the 31) and too short for the worship team/pastor shots (I use the 77 for this). I guess I might could make it work if I got closer. Would that help? I'm just a little concerned about the depth of field. It's already crazy short at f/1.8. I will try fully automatic next week.

SpecialK · 08-22-2011, 07:51 PM

Perhaps bring in some continuous lighting? (That is sort of like "turn on the lights", but more specifically pointed at the musicians.)

Or, ask to move outside.

**dms** · 08-22-2011, 09:00 PM

Looking at the photo's it seems you have a lot of camera movement (look at background). The photo's would likely be quite good if the camera was stationary--you should have some subject motion (e.g., hands) to suggest the actual process/action. Do you allow time for the SR to activate? 1/10 second w/ 31-77 mm lens is not that slow! If SR is working you need to practice and/or get some camera support. A chain/loop from camera to your foot. BTW I find a monopod/tripod is not so good for theatre/stage work--really it's best to have free motion.

**ManuH** · 08-23-2011, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by miltona580

That's the answers I thought I'd get guys. I will try next week at ISO 3200. This week I was at 800, and it still was not enough. Barring that, I'm breaking out the insane Sigma flash.

You're pretty much at the limit already. Going to ISO 3200 will give you 2 more stops, so instead of shooting at 1/10, you'll be at 1/40. Still not really enough but much better.

Even with SR on, you'll need around at least 1/25s to get sharp pictures on the FA77mm. On the K-x maybe even more as I'm not sure the SR is as good as upper models.

That's why I suggest a tripod and a bit of patience: there's always a moment when people almost don't move. you could go as low as 1/4s ISO 400. Even if they move the scene will be sharp and that can make some nice effects, you don't always want to stop any movement. Be creative

**ManuH** · 08-23-2011, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by dms

BTW I find a monopod/tripod is not so good for theatre/stage work--really it's best to have free motion.

Why not? It's usually difficult to move anyway without bothering everybody. A light tripod with a good ballhead that allow free movement can be a good alternative. And SR has its limits: about 2 stops. For 77mm it means around 1/30s. The best is to test your own limit to see how low you can go.

Another trick I thought of is to put wireless flashes close to the scene. That way the flashes don't have to run at full power. People get less distracted, light is better and the recycle time is much better. That would be the strobist way. And it doesn't have to cost a lot of money: cheap manual flashes, chinese cactus triggers, etc.

08-22-2011, 06:20 PM	#1
miltona580 Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 309	Shooting in a church I'm taking pictures for my church, and I have several problems that I am looking for some help to work through. 1. The room is very dark. 2. A flash is considered distracting, so they would prefer I do not use a flash. I do have one capable of filling the small room (Sigma DG-610). 3. Low ISO is desirable because they want to blow up the better pictures. I'm using a Pentax K-x with either the limited 31mm or 77mm at f/1.8. I'm getting very blurry pictures because I am misjudging the bokeh effect at f/1.8, AND the shutter speed is really too slow (usually 1/6 or 1/10 of a second). What can I do to get better pictures, other than the obvious "turn the lights on" or "use a flash"? Last edited by miltona580; 09-07-2011 at 08:24 PM.

08-22-2011, 07:08 PM	#8
SlickYamaha Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Bel Air MD Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 840	Here is some of the work I have done at my church, No flash. K20d, ISO 3200 (kinda high for the K20) 1/45 sec, f5.6. Its still a little blurry, but handheld there isnt much that can be done at 1/45. I also have a 50mm 1.4 I want to try, but we dont have "concerts" too often. I would suggest getting a little more out of the ISO on your Kx, (it can do much better work in that dept than the K20) and then if needed use some noise reducer. Keep posting photos! Attached Images

08-22-2011, 09:00 PM	#13
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	Camera Motion! Looking at the photo's it seems you have a lot of camera movement (look at background). The photo's would likely be quite good if the camera was stationary--you should have some subject motion (e.g., hands) to suggest the actual process/action. Do you allow time for the SR to activate? 1/10 second w/ 31-77 mm lens is not that slow! If SR is working you need to practice and/or get some camera support. A chain/loop from camera to your foot. BTW I find a monopod/tripod is not so good for theatre/stage work--really it's best to have free motion.

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08-22-2011, 06:37 PM	#2
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by miltona580 What can I do to get better pictures, other than the obvious "turn the lights on" or "use a flash"? - Use a tripod if you can, but this will not help for moving people, for that you need at least 1/60s - Use a high ISO, 3200 should be the maximum OK on the K-x Not much else you can do actually.

08-22-2011, 06:42 PM	#3
firefly Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Brunswick Photos: Albums Posts: 200	Well, in my opinion you have only one option: you need more light! Seriously, there are a few things to try: 1. open up your aperture, if you're already near wide open you could also 2. raise the ISO. I know they want low ISO pics, but it's a tradeoff, they keep the lights out, your ISO raises. The k-x really is good at high ISO stuff, try 3200, expose to the right (1/3 or 1/2 stop over exposed), and you could always 3. shoot RAW, that way you allow yourself the highest post processing overhead and recovery, and finally, if all else fails, 4. explain that photos are taken by the camera collecting light, and hopefully they allow you to used the flash. Get it off camera or bounce it.

08-22-2011, 06:44 PM	#4
firefly Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Brunswick Photos: Albums Posts: 200	Originally posted by ManuH - Use a high ISO, 3200 should be the maximum OK on the K-x Not much else you can do actually. Well ManuH beat me to it, but yeah, push till 3200 on the K-x, it will surprise you.

08-22-2011, 06:45 PM	#5
MysteryOnion Giveaway winner! Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: beantown Photos: Albums Posts: 944	If you use the SR already, it may not work well with a tripod... So as ManuH suggest about the ISO, also how is your shooting in manual skills. If you lock the setting or use a Tv to 40th or higher, would that work for you?

08-22-2011, 06:46 PM	#6
miltona580 Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 309 Original Poster	That's the answers I thought I'd get guys. I will try next week at ISO 3200. This week I was at 800, and it still was not enough. Barring that, I'm breaking out the insane Sigma flash.

08-22-2011, 06:48 PM	#7
miltona580 Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 309 Original Poster	Originally posted by MysteryOnion If you use the SR already, it may not work well with a tripod... So as ManuH suggest about the ISO, also how is your shooting in manual skills. If you lock the setting or use a Tv to 40th or higher, would that work for you? I've been in Manual mode, metering before each shot. I guess I need to learn what Tv mode does.

08-22-2011, 07:09 PM	#9
hcc Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,004	I am surprised by the problem that you have using the FA31mm and K-x. This is not normal IMHO. I have shot several evenings in the local school hall. The lighting was poor and IMO poorer than in your church. (Rember it was evening time.) Using my K-7 and FA31mm (K-7 in hyper mode P), I got some excellent results of children dance photographs. I use the following settings: FA31mm in AF mode K-7 dial mode in P (fully-automatic) Auto ISO (with up to 1600) For ISO from and above 800, noise removal with Noiseware. After reviewing the shots, the shutter speed was typically 1/50 to 1/80 s and the shots look great. In summary: * you have a camera K-x with greater high ISO performances than my K-7. Do use this feature. * try fully auto (dial mode P) incl. auto ISO * the FA31mm is a great lens for this type of shots. Hope that the comments will help.

08-22-2011, 07:15 PM	#10
AOShep Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Eastern PA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 293	Sense they are asking for images for large prints, use a flash for those shots. Maybe even rehearsal shots. Try bouncing the flash or off camera. It's a trade off you will have to communicate to the pastor, worship leader, or whoever is in charge. Otherwise, it's high ISO and faster shutter speed. Looks like the interior is light in color so it really wouldn't take much of a flash to light it up.

08-22-2011, 07:20 PM	#11
miltona580 Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 309 Original Poster	I do have a FA 50mm f/1.4, but it's too long for the crowd shots (where I use the 31) and too short for the worship team/pastor shots (I use the 77 for this). I guess I might could make it work if I got closer. Would that help? I'm just a little concerned about the depth of field. It's already crazy short at f/1.8. I will try fully automatic next week.

08-22-2011, 07:51 PM	#12
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,481	Perhaps bring in some continuous lighting? (That is sort of like "turn on the lights", but more specifically pointed at the musicians.) Or, ask to move outside.

08-23-2011, 06:25 AM	#14
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by miltona580 That's the answers I thought I'd get guys. I will try next week at ISO 3200. This week I was at 800, and it still was not enough. Barring that, I'm breaking out the insane Sigma flash. You're pretty much at the limit already. Going to ISO 3200 will give you 2 more stops, so instead of shooting at 1/10, you'll be at 1/40. Still not really enough but much better. Even with SR on, you'll need around at least 1/25s to get sharp pictures on the FA77mm. On the K-x maybe even more as I'm not sure the SR is as good as upper models. That's why I suggest a tripod and a bit of patience: there's always a moment when people almost don't move. you could go as low as 1/4s ISO 400. Even if they move the scene will be sharp and that can make some nice effects, you don't always want to stop any movement. Be creative

08-23-2011, 06:34 AM	#15
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by dms BTW I find a monopod/tripod is not so good for theatre/stage work--really it's best to have free motion. Why not? It's usually difficult to move anyway without bothering everybody. A light tripod with a good ballhead that allow free movement can be a good alternative. And SR has its limits: about 2 stops. For 77mm it means around 1/30s. The best is to test your own limit to see how low you can go. Another trick I thought of is to put wireless flashes close to the scene. That way the flashes don't have to run at full power. People get less distracted, light is better and the recycle time is much better. That would be the strobist way. And it doesn't have to cost a lot of money: cheap manual flashes, chinese cactus triggers, etc.