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travis_cooper · 01-07-2008, 11:34 AM

My wife loves our 540 flash, I know how to get it to work, but thats about it since I don't use it much. However, she isn't the best at learning on her own, usually I have to figure it out and teach her. Anyway, she has been getting discouraged with harsh shadows even when bouncing off ceilings and using the diffuser we got for it and recently stumbled across a concept she thinks will help with this, it is "Dragging the Shutter". I read a little bit about it, and understand the concept, just set the shutter speed slower and you can get more ambient light and less flash. My question is, what setting on our flash is the best to use when trying this? I would just play around and figure it out myself, but I'm at work, and she has some time now to try some things out. She is shooting the camera in manual mode and from a tutorial I read it is good to under-expose by 1.5-2 stops from what the ambient light should be, then let the flash expose the rest. So what flash setting should be used to accomplish this?

Sorry I hope that made sense, it worked in my head, but sometimes I can't explain things exactly right when I'm typing.

Tom M · 01-07-2008, 11:57 AM

I'm not a flash photographer but, I did read here on this site some good info regarding your dragging the shutter comment and flash use techniques. I'm certain it was posted in the 'photos' forum and the topic was some night club shots of people.

Have you tried trailing curtain, leading curtain flash settings yet?

travis_cooper · 01-07-2008, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Tom M

I'm not a flash photographer but, I did read here on this site some good info regarding your dragging the shutter comment and flash use techniques. I'm certain it was posted in the 'photos' forum and the topic was some night club shots of people.

Have you tried trailing curtain, leading curtain flash settings yet?

I'll search for that, my search for dragging the shutter didn't get anything good. Like I said, I haven't tried anything, I am mostly asking this for my wife, I won't have a chance to play with it until I get home tonight, that is if my wife doesn't figure it out first. I am not a flash photographer either, I very rarely use it, my subjects are usually pretty still and I would much rather use a tripod and get it with natural light.

**Canada_Rockies** · 01-07-2008, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by travis_cooper

I'll search for that, my search for dragging the shutter didn't get anything good. Like I said, I haven't tried anything, I am mostly asking this for my wife, I won't have a chance to play with it until I get home tonight, that is if my wife doesn't figure it out first. I am not a flash photographer either, I very rarely use it, my subjects are usually pretty still and I would much rather use a tripod and get it with natural light.

The actual phrase you could search on is "slow speed synchronization".

**jfdavis58** · 01-07-2008, 12:11 PM

Summarizing this technique into a nutshell will lead to a, well a mess. Try this article: from Planet Neil. It covers all the basics and has some examples.

Originally posted by travis_cooper

My wife loves our 540 flash, I know how to get it to work, but thats about it since I don't use it much. However, she isn't the best at learning on her own, usually I have to figure it out and teach her. Anyway, she has been getting discouraged with harsh shadows even when bouncing off ceilings and using the diffuser we got for it and recently stumbled across a concept she thinks will help with this, it is "Dragging the Shutter". I read a little bit about it, and understand the concept, just set the shutter speed slower and you can get more ambient light and less flash. My question is, what setting on our flash is the best to use when trying this? I would just play around and figure it out myself, but I'm at work, and she has some time now to try some things out. She is shooting the camera in manual mode and from a tutorial I read it is good to under-expose by 1.5-2 stops from what the ambient light should be, then let the flash expose the rest. So what flash setting should be used to accomplish this?

Sorry I hope that made sense, it worked in my head, but sometimes I can't explain things exactly right when I'm typing.

**Lowell Goudge** · 01-07-2008, 12:54 PM

Typically if you want to eliminate shadows, and you are in relitively strong lighting, you can set your camera to manual, and the exposure to about -1/2 stop, then set your flash to -1/2 stop (assuming you can remain below the sync speed of about 1/125 - 1/180 (depending on camera)

This will give you approximately equal contribution of flash and natural lighting.

travis_cooper · 01-07-2008, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by jfdavis58

Summarizing this technique into a nutshell will lead to a, well a mess. Try this article: from Planet Neil. It covers all the basics and has some examples.

That is actually the article that I read. The real question is what mode should the flash be in? Right now I have it in high-sync mode, but it defaults to the far left setting, whatever that is, if there isn't enough light. The other two modes are pre and post curtain. Which to use? If nobody knows, thats okay, I will just play with it when I get home.

stanjo · 01-07-2008, 01:23 PM

As others have already said, you can bring this technique to a "pro" level, but in a nutshell:
- Set camera ISO to 400
- Set camera mode to shutter priority (Tv)
- Dial shutter speed between 1/30 - 1/60 depending on how steady your hands are. I use 1/45 with great results.
- Turn on the "Shake Reduction" feature - it really helps.
- Leave your flash in P-TLL, front curtain - the default settings, everything in auto. Use the widest possible zoom setting on the flash. I believe the 540 does this automatically when bounced (head is tilted).
- Bounce your flash and shoot away.

If this doesn't take care of the harsh shadows, I suggest you work on your bouncing technique.
You can try a Sto-fen omni bouncer to disperse yet more ambient light - it's cheap to try.
If you want to go fancy, try the Gary Fong's Lightsphere.

travis_cooper · 01-07-2008, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by stanjo

As others have already said, you can bring this technique to a "pro" level, but in a nutshell:
- Set camera ISO to 400
- Set camera mode to shutter priority (Tv)
- Dial shutter speed between 1/30 - 1/60 depending on how steady your hands are. I use 1/45 with great results.
- Turn on the "Shake Reduction" feature - it really helps.
- Leave your flash in P-TLL, front curtain - the default settings, everything in auto. Use the widest possible zoom setting on the flash. I believe the 540 does this automatically when bounced (head is tilted).
- Bounce your flash and shoot away.

If this doesn't take care of the harsh shadows, I suggest you work on your bouncing technique.
You can try a Sto-fen omni bouncer to disperse yet more ambient light - it's cheap to try.
If you want to go fancy, try the Gary Fong's Lightsphere.

I'll give it a try when I get home, or maybe my wife can try it out now. We do have a diffuser on the flash already, and usually bounce it off the ceiling. My personal opinion is that we don't have enough room where she takes her pictures, so the subject is too close to the backdrop, I think getting into a bigger space and moving the subject would solve her problem. Also, I have the K110D, so I don't have SR. Thanks though, I'll see how it works.

**jfdavis58** · 01-07-2008, 02:26 PM

"Neil" is using a combination of manual and TTL flash-that article and his equipment are a bit 'dated'==a pair of D100 cameras?!?!?!

I really hate making things like this into a list--you seem to be showing a great deal of tolerance for those that do!! If I was backed into a corner I would summarize the process as flash less than what it calls for on automatic (camera other than manual, flash in any auto mode) this plus a little ambiient light gets the subject; background 1-4 stops more to get the dragging part of the shutter/aperture.

Leading and trailing curtain might come into play when you add the second part of Planet Neils article-motion. Trailing current sync will put the motion on the right side.

The best thing you have going at this point is your willingness to experiment--this technique really requires an intuitive feel approach--that would be the 'pro way'.

Originally posted by travis_cooper

That is actually the article that I read. The real question is what mode should the flash be in? Right now I have it in high-sync mode, but it defaults to the far left setting, whatever that is, if there isn't enough light. The other two modes are pre and post curtain. Which to use? If nobody knows, thats okay, I will just play with it when I get home.

mattdm · 01-07-2008, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by travis_cooper

The other two modes are pre and post curtain. Which to use?

"Pre" makes the flash fire at the beginning of the exposure. This has the advantage of having the flash-exposed portion happen exactly when you tell it to -- you can capture the instant you intended. It has the side effect, though, of causing motion trails from the action that happened after that -- so, for example, if you take a picture of a car, you get a blur and the trail from the headlights in front, making it look like it's going backwards.

"Post" solves that by firing the flash at the end of the exposure (also called "rear curtain" or "trailing curtain" flash), which makes your motion lines look right, but has the disadvantage of making it hard to sense exactly when the flash will fire unless you have a robotic timing circuit in your brain. So if you're like me, this ends up leaving more to chance.

roscot · 01-07-2008, 05:43 PM

Lots of info links here:
dragging the shutter - Google Search

HGMonaro · 01-07-2008, 06:08 PM

my interpretation of what your trying to do is, the flash exposes your subject correctly and you increase exposure of the camera (via longer shutter speeds) to lighten the background or surroundings. The flash is giving enough light for the selected aperture but the duration of the flash doesn't matter as long as it's quicker than your camera shutter speed (which it will be).

Since this is digital... you can experiment! Set the flash up to expose correctly, then increase shutter speed (longer time) until your getting some of the background captured as you want. If the background is too dark, then you'll get to the point where the shutter speed is too long to handhold, so use a tripod. As the flash exposes the main subjuct for only a short time, you'll probably get away with longer shutter speeds than you think, especially if it's someone you can ask to sit still.

Cheers, Nige.

Kaimarx · 01-07-2008, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by roscot

Lots of info links here:
dragging the shutter - Google Search

That'll pretty much do it lol..those wedding links are pretty good. Also you may want to check out Codiacs blog from an earlier post for a variation on the technique using the same flash...Photography 2.0 - Reaching the Masses with Technology

LaRee · 01-07-2008, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Kaimarx

That'll pretty much do it lol..those wedding links are pretty good. Also you may want to check out Codiacs blog from an earlier post for a variation on the technique using the same flash...Photography 2.0 - Reaching the Masses with Technology

I hadn't seen this video by Chris. That is a gem of a piece for anyone to view. Thanks for posting the link here.

01-07-2008, 11:34 AM	#1
travis_cooper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 300	Dragging the Shutter My wife loves our 540 flash, I know how to get it to work, but thats about it since I don't use it much. However, she isn't the best at learning on her own, usually I have to figure it out and teach her. Anyway, she has been getting discouraged with harsh shadows even when bouncing off ceilings and using the diffuser we got for it and recently stumbled across a concept she thinks will help with this, it is "Dragging the Shutter". I read a little bit about it, and understand the concept, just set the shutter speed slower and you can get more ambient light and less flash. My question is, what setting on our flash is the best to use when trying this? I would just play around and figure it out myself, but I'm at work, and she has some time now to try some things out. She is shooting the camera in manual mode and from a tutorial I read it is good to under-expose by 1.5-2 stops from what the ambient light should be, then let the flash expose the rest. So what flash setting should be used to accomplish this? Sorry I hope that made sense, it worked in my head, but sometimes I can't explain things exactly right when I'm typing.

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01-07-2008, 11:57 AM	#2
Tom M Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Lincoln Park, NJ Photos: Gallery Posts: 780	I'm not a flash photographer but, I did read here on this site some good info regarding your dragging the shutter comment and flash use techniques. I'm certain it was posted in the 'photos' forum and the topic was some night club shots of people. Have you tried trailing curtain, leading curtain flash settings yet?

01-07-2008, 12:01 PM	#3
travis_cooper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 300 Original Poster	Originally posted by Tom M I'm not a flash photographer but, I did read here on this site some good info regarding your dragging the shutter comment and flash use techniques. I'm certain it was posted in the 'photos' forum and the topic was some night club shots of people. Have you tried trailing curtain, leading curtain flash settings yet? I'll search for that, my search for dragging the shutter didn't get anything good. Like I said, I haven't tried anything, I am mostly asking this for my wife, I won't have a chance to play with it until I get home tonight, that is if my wife doesn't figure it out first. I am not a flash photographer either, I very rarely use it, my subjects are usually pretty still and I would much rather use a tripod and get it with natural light.

01-07-2008, 12:04 PM	#4
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by travis_cooper I'll search for that, my search for dragging the shutter didn't get anything good. Like I said, I haven't tried anything, I am mostly asking this for my wife, I won't have a chance to play with it until I get home tonight, that is if my wife doesn't figure it out first. I am not a flash photographer either, I very rarely use it, my subjects are usually pretty still and I would much rather use a tripod and get it with natural light. The actual phrase you could search on is "slow speed synchronization".

01-07-2008, 12:11 PM	#5
jfdavis58 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 13 S 0357397-3884316 Photos: Gallery Posts: 887	Summarizing this technique into a nutshell will lead to a, well a mess. Try this article: from Planet Neil. It covers all the basics and has some examples. Originally posted by travis_cooper My wife loves our 540 flash, I know how to get it to work, but thats about it since I don't use it much. However, she isn't the best at learning on her own, usually I have to figure it out and teach her. Anyway, she has been getting discouraged with harsh shadows even when bouncing off ceilings and using the diffuser we got for it and recently stumbled across a concept she thinks will help with this, it is "Dragging the Shutter". I read a little bit about it, and understand the concept, just set the shutter speed slower and you can get more ambient light and less flash. My question is, what setting on our flash is the best to use when trying this? I would just play around and figure it out myself, but I'm at work, and she has some time now to try some things out. She is shooting the camera in manual mode and from a tutorial I read it is good to under-expose by 1.5-2 stops from what the ambient light should be, then let the flash expose the rest. So what flash setting should be used to accomplish this? Sorry I hope that made sense, it worked in my head, but sometimes I can't explain things exactly right when I'm typing.

01-07-2008, 12:54 PM	#6
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,892	Typically if you want to eliminate shadows, and you are in relitively strong lighting, you can set your camera to manual, and the exposure to about -1/2 stop, then set your flash to -1/2 stop (assuming you can remain below the sync speed of about 1/125 - 1/180 (depending on camera) This will give you approximately equal contribution of flash and natural lighting.

01-07-2008, 01:06 PM	#7
travis_cooper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 300 Original Poster	Originally posted by jfdavis58 Summarizing this technique into a nutshell will lead to a, well a mess. Try this article: from Planet Neil. It covers all the basics and has some examples. That is actually the article that I read. The real question is what mode should the flash be in? Right now I have it in high-sync mode, but it defaults to the far left setting, whatever that is, if there isn't enough light. The other two modes are pre and post curtain. Which to use? If nobody knows, thats okay, I will just play with it when I get home.

01-07-2008, 01:23 PM	#8
stanjo Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: California Posts: 71	As others have already said, you can bring this technique to a "pro" level, but in a nutshell: - Set camera ISO to 400 - Set camera mode to shutter priority (Tv) - Dial shutter speed between 1/30 - 1/60 depending on how steady your hands are. I use 1/45 with great results. - Turn on the "Shake Reduction" feature - it really helps. - Leave your flash in P-TLL, front curtain - the default settings, everything in auto. Use the widest possible zoom setting on the flash. I believe the 540 does this automatically when bounced (head is tilted). - Bounce your flash and shoot away. If this doesn't take care of the harsh shadows, I suggest you work on your bouncing technique. You can try a Sto-fen omni bouncer to disperse yet more ambient light - it's cheap to try. If you want to go fancy, try the Gary Fong's Lightsphere.

01-07-2008, 01:46 PM	#9
travis_cooper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 300 Original Poster	Originally posted by stanjo As others have already said, you can bring this technique to a "pro" level, but in a nutshell: - Set camera ISO to 400 - Set camera mode to shutter priority (Tv) - Dial shutter speed between 1/30 - 1/60 depending on how steady your hands are. I use 1/45 with great results. - Turn on the "Shake Reduction" feature - it really helps. - Leave your flash in P-TLL, front curtain - the default settings, everything in auto. Use the widest possible zoom setting on the flash. I believe the 540 does this automatically when bounced (head is tilted). - Bounce your flash and shoot away. If this doesn't take care of the harsh shadows, I suggest you work on your bouncing technique. You can try a Sto-fen omni bouncer to disperse yet more ambient light - it's cheap to try. If you want to go fancy, try the Gary Fong's Lightsphere. I'll give it a try when I get home, or maybe my wife can try it out now. We do have a diffuser on the flash already, and usually bounce it off the ceiling. My personal opinion is that we don't have enough room where she takes her pictures, so the subject is too close to the backdrop, I think getting into a bigger space and moving the subject would solve her problem. Also, I have the K110D, so I don't have SR. Thanks though, I'll see how it works.

01-07-2008, 02:26 PM	#10
jfdavis58 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 13 S 0357397-3884316 Photos: Gallery Posts: 887	"Neil" is using a combination of manual and TTL flash-that article and his equipment are a bit 'dated'==a pair of D100 cameras?!?!?! I really hate making things like this into a list--you seem to be showing a great deal of tolerance for those that do!! If I was backed into a corner I would summarize the process as flash less than what it calls for on automatic (camera other than manual, flash in any auto mode) this plus a little ambiient light gets the subject; background 1-4 stops more to get the dragging part of the shutter/aperture. Leading and trailing curtain might come into play when you add the second part of Planet Neils article-motion. Trailing current sync will put the motion on the right side. The best thing you have going at this point is your willingness to experiment--this technique really requires an intuitive feel approach--that would be the 'pro way'. Originally posted by travis_cooper That is actually the article that I read. The real question is what mode should the flash be in? Right now I have it in high-sync mode, but it defaults to the far left setting, whatever that is, if there isn't enough light. The other two modes are pre and post curtain. Which to use? If nobody knows, thats okay, I will just play with it when I get home.

01-07-2008, 02:49 PM	#11
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by travis_cooper The other two modes are pre and post curtain. Which to use? "Pre" makes the flash fire at the beginning of the exposure. This has the advantage of having the flash-exposed portion happen exactly when you tell it to -- you can capture the instant you intended. It has the side effect, though, of causing motion trails from the action that happened after that -- so, for example, if you take a picture of a car, you get a blur and the trail from the headlights in front, making it look like it's going backwards. "Post" solves that by firing the flash at the end of the exposure (also called "rear curtain" or "trailing curtain" flash), which makes your motion lines look right, but has the disadvantage of making it hard to sense exactly when the flash will fire unless you have a robotic timing circuit in your brain. So if you're like me, this ends up leaving more to chance.

01-07-2008, 05:43 PM	#12
roscot Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach VA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,363	Lots of info links here: dragging the shutter - Google Search

01-07-2008, 06:08 PM	#13
HGMonaro Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Melb. Aust Posts: 840	my interpretation of what your trying to do is, the flash exposes your subject correctly and you increase exposure of the camera (via longer shutter speeds) to lighten the background or surroundings. The flash is giving enough light for the selected aperture but the duration of the flash doesn't matter as long as it's quicker than your camera shutter speed (which it will be). Since this is digital... you can experiment! Set the flash up to expose correctly, then increase shutter speed (longer time) until your getting some of the background captured as you want. If the background is too dark, then you'll get to the point where the shutter speed is too long to handhold, so use a tripod. As the flash exposes the main subjuct for only a short time, you'll probably get away with longer shutter speeds than you think, especially if it's someone you can ask to sit still. Cheers, Nige.

01-07-2008, 07:38 PM	#14
Kaimarx Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Auckland Photos: Gallery Posts: 452	Originally posted by roscot Lots of info links here: dragging the shutter - Google Search That'll pretty much do it lol..those wedding links are pretty good. Also you may want to check out Codiacs blog from an earlier post for a variation on the technique using the same flash...Photography 2.0 - Reaching the Masses with Technology

01-07-2008, 08:27 PM	#15
LaRee Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Diego Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,225	Originally posted by Kaimarx That'll pretty much do it lol..those wedding links are pretty good. Also you may want to check out Codiacs blog from an earlier post for a variation on the technique using the same flash...Photography 2.0 - Reaching the Masses with Technology I hadn't seen this video by Chris. That is a gem of a piece for anyone to view. Thanks for posting the link here.