[ve2vfd]

jfdavis58, I think we got our wires crossed... the ziplock bag is ONLY when taking the camera FROM a cold place into a WARM place, not the other way around.

Remember that the condensation you see forming on the lenses when coming in from the cold is also forming on all the components and circuit boards inside the camera... I like to avoid that if I can

Travis, don't worry about it you'll be ok if you're always in the cold. I'd be more worried about the camera being hit by a snowball thrown by an unruly Scout

I always have a few ziplocks in my camera bag just in case as I spend a lot of time in the outdoors.

Pat

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Last edited by ve2vfd; 01-10-2008 at 02:48 PM.

[deejjjaaaa]

cold is good - should be less noise in sensor

[jfdavis58]

To clarify further: Pentax never says (in the manual) seal the plastic bag or use a sealable plastic bag--they reference your bag i.e. camera bag and as an alternative suggest plastic. Like the film clarification already stated--wait for temperature stabilization, i.e. camera at ambient temperature.

[jfdavis58]

And you've seen condensation when going from a cold place to a warm place---that defies physics, sir.

What you may have seen is rime icing and subsequent thawing of that ice appearing on the surface.

Regardless, sealing that moisture in a bag with the camera is stil BAD--and you cannot remove it from the air inside the box! Place a warming camera in a stream of warm air to assist in sublimation or direct evaporation of any rime ice.(do not use the direct heat from a furnace or stove--a draft will do--keep the towel handy.

jfdavis58, I think we got our wires crossed... the ziplock bag is ONLY when taking the camera FROM a cold place into a WARM place, not the other way around.

Remember that the condensation you see forming on the lenses when coming in from the cold is also forming on all the components and circuit boards inside the camera... I like to avoid that if I can

Travis, don't worry about it you'll be ok if you're always in the cold. I'd be more worried about the camera being hit by a snowball thrown by an unruly Scout

I always have a few ziplocks in my camera bag just in case as I spend a lot of time in the outdoors.

Pat

[jfdavis58]

Who said anything about putting it in the ziplock bag when going outside? The idea is to put it in the bag when you go inside. So the bag is full of cold air, you put your camera in it, then you go inside, where you just pointed out the air is warmer and can hold more water, so now my camera is in a bag that has cold air in it, in a room that has warm air in it. By your logic the bag is a good idea too.

So cold wet air becomes warm wet air--in a bag. With your camera.

Like i said, use your head! It's not about the air; it's about where the water goes.

Not by a long shot.

[ve2vfd]

And you've seen condensation when going from a cold place to a warm place---that defies physics, sir.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then... my experience doesn't reflect that.

All I know is that if I spend a few hours outside at 20f my camera will be a 20F.

If I come inside my house which is at 68F with a camera thats 20F, within seconds the entire thing fogs up and and condensation literally bead off it. Vewfinder fogs up, and mirror fogs up.

The same happens to my laptop which has been sitting in my cold car, and the same used to happen to my glasses when I used to wear some...

If I put the camera is inside a ziplock just before I enter the house, that doesn't happen. It stays nice and dry and fogless.

Pat

[LeoTaylor]

As an amateur astrophotographer my K110D has spent many hours outdoors running at below 15 Degrees F (-9 C). I have found it fogs up going from the cold outdoors to the warm house. The 15 degree camera is way below the dew point of the 70 degree house. I have not used the plastic bag trick since the moisture drys fairly soon and that is my, "less important" camera which never has a good lens on it.

If I was going to spend some time in the cold with my K100D and my new Pentax Macro I would use a bag.

[khardur]

I always just put my camera in the (camera) bag and zip it up before I come in the house from the cold. I've never had a problem with condensation unless I've unzipped the camera bag too soon.

That said, I take my memory cards and put them in an outer zipper pocket before I come in.. This way, and since they're small, they warm up faster than my camera does, and I can unzip the small pouch and look at my photos while my camera is still safely tucked away in the bag's main pouch.

As far as other considerations to the original poster - With my K110D I usually take 3 sets of rechargeables with me. When the meter goes to half I replace them. I've got a jacket that has a pocket on the inside, I keep the batteries there to warm them up. It works well for me, and I haven't yet run totally out, but I only go out for 5 or 6 hour stretches at the very most.

[Jodokast96]

So cold wet air becomes warm wet air--in a bag. With your camera.

Like i said, use your head! It's not about the air; it's about where the water goes.

If you were talking about a rapid change in temperature. It's not about whether the air is wet or dry, but about what happens to it and what state it is in, not where it is. If all of the air in the bag comes up to temp slowly, it will stay just that, air. If it were rapidly heated, then yes, you could get condensation on the inside as well. But as it is, the plastic acts as an insulation barrier slowing down the heating of the air inside.

[travis_cooper]

If you were talking about a rapid change in temperature. It's not about whether the air is wet or dry, but about what happens to it and what state it is in, not where it is. If all of the air in the bag comes up to temp slowly, it will stay just that, air. If it were rapidly heated, then yes, you could get condensation on the inside as well. But as it is, the plastic acts as an insulation barrier slowing down the heating of the air inside.

So if the plastic is just a barrier, wouldn't my camera bag be a barrier too? It zips up and seals off like a plastic bag, although I don't know which one has the tighter seal, probably the ziplock. I think I will still put it in the bag, inside my camera case just to be safe. I like the idea mentioned above to take out the memory card first and put it where I can get to it to start looking at my pictures. Thanks for that pointer.

Again, thanks to everything that has been said. I have been looking all over the Internet as well as this post and it seems like the overwhelming opinion is to use a sealed plastic bag. My wife also picked up some sillica gel packets so that should help too. I know I am just being over-paranoid since this is the first time I have done this, and I'm sure everything will be just fine.

[Maxington]

And you've seen condensation when going from a cold place to a warm place---that defies physics, sir.

Err, ever had a cold bottle of drink in a warm humid environment? Watch what happens. That drink bottle has gone from a cold place to a warm place, is it defying physics now?

[Jodokast96]

Yes, the camera bag does the same thing. Can you get away with just that? Most likely. It depends on the bag. The Ziploc is just an added precaution. The silica is a great idea too.

Are you being too cautious? Not really. Yes, you could probably take it from outside after an entire day and walk right in the house and not have it do anything. Not 100%, but chances of immediately frying are most likely low. The bigger "danger" would be from any moisture trapped inside of it causing corrosion which could cause problems down the road. Chances of this are greater. Doing it once chances are probably almost as low as frying it. Doing it more often would increase your chances of damage. But since it's something easy to protect against, why chance any of it? Anyway, just my opinion on the whole thing.

[tybeck]

GEli is right. As for the zip lock bag trick it will work because the camera is coming up to room temperature in air that is most likely has lower water content then the inside air (because it used to be cold). Since the zip lock bag is air tight you don't have any water exchange between the air inside and outside the bag. Could water still get on the camera, sure, but it won't condense. Otherwise it would have condensed while you were outside in the cold. Just basic thermodynamics.

[ve2vfd]

I know I am just being over-paranoid since this is the first time I have done this, and I'm sure everything will be just fine.

He he he, not paranoid... just carefull with some very expensive "grown up" toys

Now come on, have a great time with the kids this weekend and show us a few pics from the good times and awesome vistas when you come back!

Pat

[GEli]

And you've seen condensation when going from a cold place to a warm place---that defies physics, sir.

What you may have seen is rime icing and subsequent thawing of that ice appearing on the surface.

Regardless, sealing that moisture in a bag with the camera is stil BAD--and you cannot remove it from the air inside the box! Place a warming camera in a stream of warm air to assist in sublimation or direct evaporation of any rime ice.(do not use the direct heat from a furnace or stove--a draft will do--keep the towel handy.

What? No, you're wrong. Water vapour in the air is in a state of high energy - a gas. When the gas comes into contact with a very cold surface, such as a frozen camera, heat energy transfers down the energy gradient (as per the laws of thermodynamics) to the area of lower energy, which is in this case a frozen camera. The loss of energy causes the water vapour to condense on the colder surface, meaning water vapour will appear on the cold surface. The vapour will then proceed to evaporate slowly, leading to an eventually dry but very traumatized camera.

It is not rime icing. This would occur while you're still outside amongst the supercooled water droplets in the air, and which are not in high enough concentration in dry, winter air at ground level to cause any appreciable amount of ice to develop. Unless you find yourself in a crisp, winter fog with a frozen camera, this is not likely to be an issue.

Generally, unless you keep an exceptionally dry house, in freezing conditions the outside air will be much less moist than the warm air in your house. Sealing your camera in a bag filled with very dry air is much preferred to leaving it to fend for itself in your drippy house. The use of a desiccant makes this an even better plan.

You can place the camera in a stream of warm air to speed up the evaporation of the condensation that will form, as you mentioned. I'd still be leery of operating the camera for a good long while after doing this, though, as condensation forming inside the body if your lens doesn't seal very well is a definite possibility, and one which will lead to massive and possibly fatal damage to the internal circuitry should you flip the 'On' switch too soon. If you do bring a camera in from the very cold without bagging it and it isn't a K10D with a DA lens mounted on it, give it at least a day for everything to evaporate.

Yeah, yeah, I know the manual says use a plastic bag too-----doesn't anybody ever use their own brain????????????????



You're in your warm house; they are never hermetically sealed, they breathe through stove and furnace vents, ceiling and rafter vents and around doors and windows--just to name a few places. The wet air outside is the same wet air inside--just warmer. And that warm air can actually hold more water---oh, btw chemical engineers can prove this--I'm one! And what's in house air is full of human debris too--goopy sloppy stuff!

So seal your spiffy camera in a plastic bag of nasty warm wet air and take it into the cold---You'll have fun watching it short-out and rust.

Forget the straw and vacuum trick--how you gonna get the air out of the inside of the camera with just lung power????

A towel to dry off the outside; let the condensation on the lens evaporate naturally as much as possible then a good lens cloth; shield it with it's own rain jacket (they make them or you can just use a garbage bag up-side-down cutting a hold for the lens) or an umbrella.


Quote:
Originally Posted by travis_cooper View Post
Well, now we are getting mixed replies, use a ziplock bag, don't use a ziplock bag, don't seal it in anything it needs to breathe. Make up your minds people.


There is one and AFAIK only one use for sealable plastic bags in photography--when refrigerating or freezing film. The atmosphere in the typical home refrigerator/icebox is very much wetter than the surrounding room air. The bag keeps the film dry. You never open the bag until the bag and contents reach room temperature. And you dry the outside before unsealing! If you're using your head.

You contradict yourself several times in this post. First you say that warm air is capable of holding more moisture than cold air - this is true. You then go on to say that the air in your freezer is much wetter than the surrounding room air - this is false, and contradictory to the point you made a few paragraphs above. The reason why you would need to keep the film bagged is the same reason why you want to bag your camera - condensation once you move the film from a cold, dry environment to a warmer, wetter one.

You also mention sealing your camera in a bag with warm air and moving this system into a cold environment, and this being detrimental to the health of both the camera and the camera owner's wallet. I propose that this would do absolutely nothing to your camera. The warm air would cool much faster than a warm camera, meaning you won't get any condensation on the camera (any heat lost by the camera would immediately be dispersed amongst the gas and find its way to the environment outside bag in an instant). In fact, it'd be very, very similar to bagging the camera once you get outside, as the air in the bag would cool in a matter of seconds.

Nothing personal, jfdavis, but I disagree with most every point you make in these two posts and feel it is some very poor advise.