[Andrew Crouch]

I am looking to get advice on the best combination of lens, shutter speeds etc to use with a K5 specifically for shooting fast flying bird species. As this question has a mix of ingredients, which is the best forum to post it in?

[Adam]

This very one

[Andrew Crouch]

Ok, thanks Adam - looking forward to advice.

Cheers,

Andrew

[rbefly]

Hello Andrew,
I'm no expert on photographing birds, but from what I've seen, most folks use a medium-long telephoto (300mm-400mm), a monopod or tripod and shutter speeds of about 1/250s and upwards.
To get that fast of a shutter speed, you'll need a reasonably fast lens (f 2.8-f 4.0 or thereabouts) except in very bright sunlight. These lenses are big and heavy, hence the use of the tripod support.
I would think auto focus would be a help, but perhaps not.
If you go to the "Post Your Photos" section and look for bird photos, you should be able to get more reliable lens, shutter speed and technique info.
Good Luck!
Ron

[NotSteve]

I'll try to offer some advice based on my limited experience and hopefully more expert advice will soon be forthcoming.

So, you're looking at shooting birds, but birds in flight, and not just any birds, but quick ones... Well then:

Shutter speed:
- Will need to be fairly high, possibly in the 1/1600 to 1/2500 range. I realize that looks high, but at the very least one has to apply the rule of 1 over the focal length as the minimum shutter speed and in likelihood you will be using a lens at least 250-300 mm long to get decent magnification
- with the shutter speed so high, you will need to be shooting in pretty good light to keep the ISO down

Lens:
- When you say fast flying birds, I tend to think small birds, so you'll be looking at a longer zoom or prime lens. Pentax goes up to 300 mm (a prime) and then there are the Sigma zooms that reach up to 500 mm.
- there is the cheaper consumer grade zoom, the 55-300mm (which I have), which is a very good lens for the price, however, the auto focus mechanism is screw-driven which is generally slower I believe as compared to the above lenses have motors built into them, a faster quieter design. Still very usable however, for someone who is just checking things out. The other lenses I mentioned are about $1000-1200, so a real investment. I don't have either of these.

Support
- In the case of long/heavy glass, I think support can be useful to reduce fatigue. The fact that you will be using quite high shutter speeds I think means that the issue of camera shake from a too low shutter speed is not relevant. So, if you are up to it, or the lens you use is not so heavy, then you could shoot handheld. If you are trying to keep up with fast moving birds and need to use a tripod, I think you might have to consider investing in a solid tripod and a gimbal head which will balance the camera nicely on the tripod and allow it to move very freely.

This genre of photography is potentially very expensive gear wise, so seeing as you are just starting out, I think you'd be fine go with the 55-300 and whichever Pentax DSLR you have to get your feet wet and see if this is really your thing.

Positioning
- For fast moving birds, it helps to find them in a place where they are not moving quite to fast, or are moving in a more predictable manner. I tried very hard last summer to get shots of flying swallows which were nesting under a foot bridge over some water. They emerged very unpredictably and I got maybe one decent shot out of hundreds. Later in the summer I discovered that they were hanging on the some rushes close to shore elsewhere in the park, taking off and landing very regularly which made for a much better shooting experience.

Visit a park
- If you have a local wildlife park that attracts a lot of photographers, I recommend heading out there. I did that at one of the main urban parks where I live and was pleasantly surprised by how friendly people were -- everyone else had Canon or Nikon but none were gear snobs so far as I could tell -- and they all had a range of equipment for shooting.

So, some that's some advice that will hopefully point you in the right direction.

[Andrew Crouch]

Thanks Ron and NotSteve for your advice.

I have in fact also been inspired to shoot swallows amongst other birds recently, and it was that experience that made me realize just how challenging birds in flight can be, and seek some further advice. The good thing about swallows is that they don't fly away so much - they keep coming back, but boy are they aerobats. As mentioned I have a K5 purchased fairly recently, and my only long lens equipment is a manual Pentax 200mm F4 SMC and a Teleplus Pz-AF 1.7 teleconverter, so 340mm combined. With the speed and unpredictability of the birds' movement, hand held was the only option, and I had to change focus, compose and shoot virtually all at once. Occasionally I used the green button to set the speed, but I didn't have time to do that while taking the shot itself. It was exhausting! I surprised myself by getting a bird in most of the frames, but only about 10 of 150 shots were tolerable, and none were really sharp. Some of my specific questions are:

• my 200 lens is not super sharp anyway, I'm wondering how much difference a sharper lens would make (including for subjects that are better behaved!)
• would an auto focus lens be of any use in this kind of situation, as it would have to focus in probably 1/10 second or less (I'm guessing here)?
• there is a trade-off between all the factors (shutter speed, aperture - fixed in my case, ISO), and you are more or less forced in this situation to go for high speed around 1/2000 (the wings can blur with anything less), stop down for better depth of field, and high ISO to compensate for the resulting light reduction. Have you found any kind of magic combo?
• these birds are so small that with 340mm the resulting shot needs cropping anyway to increase the size of the subject, but I wonder whether it would even be possible to use a longer lens like a 500 to get a bigger image because it would become increasingly hard to track the bird.
• I have seen some suggestions elsewhere about whether SR helps in this situation or not. Any thoughts?

I am posting a few shots for illustration, but I am hoping I can make some steps up from these in due course.

Cheers,

Andrew

[wildman]

my 200 lens is not super sharp anyway, I'm wondering how much difference a sharper lens would make (including for subjects that are better behaved!)

For this purpose no. Ultimate resolution is the least of your worries.

would an auto focus lens be of any use in this kind of situation, as it would have to focus in probably 1/10 second or less (I'm guessing here)?

No. To reliably lock in on flying swallows some kind of military grade gear would be required. Turn off AF and don't even try to manual focus on the fly - will explain later.

here is a trade-off between all the factors (shutter speed, aperture - fixed in my case, ISO), and you are more or less forced in this situation to go for high speed around 1/2000 (the wings can blur with anything less), stop down for better depth of field, and high ISO to compensate for the resulting light reduction. Have you found any kind of magic combo?

No. But your K5 is your best friend in this case. You have relatively good high ISO performance in your K5 - use it and if need be touch up later in PP.

these birds are so small that with 340mm the resulting shot needs cropping anyway to increase the size of the subject, but I wonder whether it would even be possible to use a longer lens like a 500 to get a bigger image because it would become increasingly hard to track the bird.

With a Gimbal fork mount 500mm would be manageable. Bear in mind that going from 340mm (10x) to 500m (15x) would still not give you a big advantage with a bird the size of a swallow. however.

I have seen some suggestions elsewhere about whether SR helps in this situation or not. Any thoughts?

Leave it off for this purpose.

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If I was going to try BIF shots of your swallows...

The first thing I would do is just sit and observe the birds. They are not just randomly flying around for the fun of it. They are feeding on flying insects and these insects are sensitive to temp gradients in the air. After a while you will probably notice that there is some method to the madness of their flight patterns and that these patterns repeat themselves.

Once I know where the birds will mostly likely be I would set up my gear:
Choose an appropriate ISO and manually prefocus at that distance and leave it.

For this kind of shooting I wouldn't use the camera viewfinder. I shoot with my gear mounted on a fork mount and mounted on this is a red dot gun sight. This sight has no magnification and is just 1:1 with infinite eye relief. This allows me to shoot with both eyes open and at once track the BIF until they come within distance then "fire". Setup this way my only concern is firing at the right moment. Hard enough but a lot better than also worrying about tracking and focus as well.

Not all shots will be keepers but a lot more will be than any other way I can think of. Remember for this kind of shooting you are not a military sniper trying to drop an enemy at 800 yards with a match grade rifle and ammo but a guy with 20 gauge tracking woodcock in the brush.

Hopefully this will at least give you something to think about. Good luck.

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Here is a shot of the kind of gear I use. Not exactly set up for a BIF shot but you get the idea.

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Last edited by wildman; 08-13-2012 at 11:39 PM.

[Andrew Crouch]

thanks for these tips - plenty of food for thought!

[Paleo Pete]

Swallows are some of the toughest birds to shoot, they fly fast and erratic. You got a really good pointer earlier, sit and watch them, get to know how they fly.

I try to shoot swallows and Purple Martins on the wing now and then, it's not easy. A good idea is to find a bridge where they nest. Loads of them will be flying around, and you can usually get pretty close. Close enough to make a 135mm lens worth a try. I use a 200mm Vivitar and a 135mm Lentar, both manual and M42. I always shoot ISO 200, I don't like noise in my pictures. On a decent day I usually get shutter speeds of around 500, which is plenty to stop a lot of the wing motion, but not always, 750 or 1000 is better. If you can get it. I usually manage to get 500 to 750 on a sunny day at f8.

What lens to use involves some give and take...a 200 or 300 will bring them in better, but you're dealing with a fast moving bird, and it's not easy to keep it in view. A 135 gives you a wider field of view and it's easier to keep them in view. But it won't bring them in as well...but then again you can still crop if you get a good shot.

I tried auto focus when I first got my K-x, that didn't last long. it "hunts" too much, since it can't really tell if it should focus on moving wings, which always change, or the head, which is usually too small for it to zero in on.So I use manual focus, and I get loads of out of focus shots, because it's not easy to focus anfd track a bird that moves that fast. If I get one keeper out of 75 shots I figure I'm doing pretty good...

Practice on something slower, larger and not as hard to track or focus on. Hawks, Eagles, Herons and Egrets all fly much slower and give you an easier target to practice on. You'll get a good idea what exposures to use and how to track and focus. Other small birds are not as difficult sometimes, like Cardinals, Bluejays, Crows, Robins...and again be ready to delete lots of bogus shots.

I don't even think about a tripod for birds, by the time you get it set up, he's long gone. Tracking a flying bird with one is really tough. It can be done, but you have been warned...I don't even try. Even if I can only get 250 shutter speed I'll try for swallows and martins.

It takes lots of practice, but you can get some amazing shots at times. I'm looking to see if I have any of my swallow shots, but here's a very tough shot of a Ring Billed Gull just as he grabbed a snack on the wing. Shot with a Lentar 90-230. Not quite as fast as a swallow, but every bit as erratic, and getting the timing just right took me at least 50-60 shots. Shutter speed was 1/750, most likely f8, that's my favorite..



Had to upload a couple of swallows...

Taken recently with the Vivitar 200, Shutter speed 250, which didn't stop wing motion.



Taken last summer with the Lentar 135. Shutter speed 1500.



Taken the same day, also with the 135, at 1/1500.



I'm pretty sure if I look a bit more I have shots taken at everything between 1/250 and 1/1500, I always try for at least 1/500 if I can get it and keep the ISO down. These should give you an idea what can be done, and a couple were taken with a 135, which might surprise some people. A lot of folks seem to go for the longest lens possible, but that doesn't always get the shot. If you can get fairly close, the 135 makes swallows easier to track, since it gives you a wider field of view, and a bit of cropping, as you can see, results in some pretty decent shots. Don't get me wrong, I love my 200mm and I'm on the prowl for a 300, but if I can find a bridge with some nests, all I have to do is wait a bit and they will start flying in close enough for the 135.