Second shooting a wedding

Medium FormatPro · 08-04-2012, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by JenniferLeigh

As for memory cards, I would take several smaller cards (4gb) instead of 16gb cards. Worse case scenario, if a card fails - all your eggs are not in one basket

That's one of the major items I don't like about Pentax. That it would appear as though most of the Pentax bodies don't have twin memory card options.

aleonx3 · 08-04-2012, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by maxfield_photo

Remember Pentax cameras won't sync with a flash above 1/180th, so that is your max shutter speed if you're using the flash. On the plus side though the flash will freeze the action for you, especially in dim lighting, so your effective shutter speed will probably be closer to 1/8000th.
.

Unless you are using the in-camera flash, the AF360 and AF540 can certainly do high speed sync if you set the flash to HSS.

D4rknezz · 08-09-2012, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by jennverr

Hi all,

on flash: my main photog said: keep high ISO, low SS, and low aperture on the camera. okay so if I have all those settings on the camera, what exactly do I need to dial into the flash at that point? I think that is where I get confused.

Hi,

i believe the reason he said this is to minimize the obvious 'Flashed" look had you kept your camera on , say, auto mode. This information works if the flash is PTTL. So you dont need to dial anything else in.

Longer explanation :
a. By keeping ISO as high as your particular camera can go without ruining the picture - the camera will dial less flash power.
b. By keeping low shutter speed (as low as you can go without introducing motion blur) - the camera will dial even less flash power.
c. By ...low aperture I am going to assume you mean max aperture, which is 2.8, 3.5 ...as opposed to F11. And by going low aperture number (maximum value), the camera will dial even less flash power.

All of this combined - will produce flash just enough to lit the scene naturally...rather than Deer in a headlight shots.

That said, you dont have PTTL - so you have to dial your flash manually.

Try bouncing your flash as much as you can, and know how to dial power in your flash very well. Get in the house a little early, and take some test shots to make sure you get the correct exposure. Once you are comfortable with the flash power, you can keep it with minimal changes while you are in the same location.

If you move to a different location, make sure you test your flash again.

aleonx3 · 08-09-2012, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by D4rknezz

Hi,

i believe the reason he said this is to minimize the obvious 'Flashed" look had you kept your camera on , say, auto mode. This information works if the flash is PTTL. So you dont need to dial anything else in.

Longer explanation :
a. By keeping ISO as high as your particular camera can go without ruining the picture - the camera will dial less flash power.
b. By keeping low shutter speed (as low as you can go without introducing motion blur) - the camera will dial even less flash power.
c. By ...low aperture I am going to assume you mean max aperture, which is 2.8, 3.5 ...as opposed to F11. And by going low aperture number (maximum value), the camera will dial even less flash power.

All of this combined - will produce flash just enough to lit the scene naturally...rather than Deer in a headlight shots.

That said, you dont have PTTL - so you have to dial your flash manually.

Try bouncing your flash as much as you can, and know how to dial power in your flash very well. Get in the house a little early, and take some test shots to make sure you get the correct exposure. Once you are comfortable with the flash power, you can keep it with minimal changes while you are in the same location.

If you move to a different location, make sure you test your flash again.

I am no expert, so take this with grains of salt..
-given the subject distance, both iso and aperture will affect the flash output, therefore the flash needs to know what iso and aperture is set in the camera. PTTL helps the flash to determine the subject distance (hence a pre-flash) before the shutter so the flash output is based on inverse square law for proper exposure without clipping highlights
-shutter speed affects the subject motion (or stop subject movement as many prefer to call it 'freeze' the subject); if speed is not fast enough there will be ghost effect which may or may not be the desire result
-shutter speed, iso and aperture all affect the ambient light (mostly refer to as background); flash output also plays a small part if the background to subject distance is close.

Therefore depending on the situation and what you want to achieve in the outcome, there is no set rule or 'auto' mode that will satisfy everyone's need. When the parameters are properly applied, I have found that PTTL to be quite accurate (so does other ETTL or ITTL from Canikon). Also, taking RAW will most likely save the day.... (hence I am not a big fan or huge megapixel sensor).

jennverr · 08-13-2012, 08:35 AM

Well saturday was the big day.... and wow that was intense! I have to say, I am still in a bit of pain. lots of moving, crouching, contorting...

There are some really good shots. There are some really BAD shots. There are a lot of "soft" shots. There are a lot of blur shots. There is a lot of grain.

But, as I said , there are some good ones too, and I think despite not being as sharp as I would like some of them to be, they still came out okay. I am not used to shooting people, why do they have to move around so much?!

I did shoot the bride getting ready, and her bridesmaids, but most of the other shots were left up to the main photog. I did get some good "different angles" of other scenes, good shots of the groomsmen and great detail shots (closeup of dress, table decor, cake, etc - the stuff I am good at!).

All in all, I shot about 1400-1500 between the 2 cameras.

I am working on the PP now, and need to really figure out how to soften some of the grain in these. The flash photos I did, some came out okay, but overall I am still really unhappy with the flash. I wonder if I should just get a PTTL flash and let it do the work for me? As I mentioned I was working with a Nikon SB 24. I had the ISO set to 200, shutter at 1/100, and kept the widest aperture possible, then had the flash set to auto and those settings entered in. I still felt like I did not get really any "ambient" light, and everything really had that "flash" look to it. I had to rely a lot on natural light, because I am not sure what would be worst, having grain and softness, or having nasty "flash" look.

THIS IS HARD! That's all I have to say. But I definitely want to do it again!

I will see if I can post some photos here later. Maybe some without faces or something... Thanks again everyone.

**maxfield_photo** · 08-13-2012, 09:20 AM

To reduce the grain, you can try the noise sliders if you're using ACR or Lightroom (probably other programs have them too) If you're getting color pattern noise, there are very few negative repercussions to turning the Chroma noise slider all the way up. Luminance noise is harder to reduce without getting some softness, but you'll have to decide what constitutes an acceptable trade off. How large do you think your largest shot will be printed?

The other thing you might try in some of the pictures that look "flashy", is do a levels adjustment to bring the background up, but then mask out your subject. In PS you would probably want to use a levels adjustment layer with a layer mask, in Lightroom, adjust the exposure/fill/blacks sliders until the background looks right, and then use an adjustment brush with the opposite settings to undo those effects on your subject. You should be able to restore quite a bit of balance, and it will be very hard to notice that you've done anything in PP.

jennverr · 08-13-2012, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by maxfield_photo

To reduce the grain, you can try the noise sliders if you're using ACR or Lightroom (probably other programs have them too) If you're getting color pattern noise, there are very few negative repercussions to turning the Chroma noise slider all the way up. Luminance noise is harder to reduce without getting some softness, but you'll have to decide what constitutes an acceptable trade off. How large do you think your largest shot will be printed?

The other thing you might try in some of the pictures that look "flashy", is do a levels adjustment to bring the background up, but then mask out your subject. In PS you would probably want to use a levels adjustment layer with a layer mask, in Lightroom, adjust the exposure/fill/blacks sliders util the background looks right, and then use an adjustment brush with the opposite settings to undo those effects on your subject. You should be able to restore quite a bit of balance, and it will be very hard to notice that you've done anything in PP.

Okay thanks! Yes I am using lightroom. I need to figure out more about how to use the adjustment brush in LR. Will keep thses tips in mind.

**maxfield_photo** · 08-13-2012, 10:15 AM

Now that I think about it, a better way might be to leave the tone sliders alone, and use the exposure slider on the adjustment brush, and just use it on your background, and leave your subject untouched. Try it both ways. Create a virtual copy of your original and edit one with the first technique I mentioned (tone sliders + "undo" brush to mask the subject), and then try the exposure slider on the adjustment brush just on the background. See which you like better. Which is more convincing?

Also make judicious use of the "auto mask" check box of the adjustment brush. It's pretty smart about content. I normally set my 'A' brush to something large with a small amount of feather, maybe 25, and have auto mask checked. Then I set my 'B' brush feather to 0 and turn off the auto mask, this is for quickly masking large areas that don't come close to the boundaries of your subject. Usually I turn the auto mask off of my erase brush, and just work with a small brush in the areas where I've gotten some adjustment where I don't want it. Also I'll turn the overlay mask on and off to check myself. Sometimes I even intentionally overdue the sliders so that I can see the effect, and then back it off once I'm satisfied that I've gotten everything that I want, and nothing I don't.

D4rknezz · 08-13-2012, 11:16 AM

A different take on it would be to leave the noise and turn the picture into a classy BW.

I do that with my pictures - as long as not ALL of them end up being BW.

The easiest way to introduce ambient light to your shots is to set your shots for the ambient light. (i.e, set your ISO, aperture and Shutter Speed to whats needed to take the shot). In door on a normal day, I'd say you are probably looking at ISO 400 or 800, f2.8 and 1/30 - 1/80 shutter speed. (this is by experience...your mileage may vary depending on how bright your rooms are).

Once you determine the setting for ambient light, under expose it a little, and then introduce the flash.

Good job on your first wedding. Cheers

Allison · 08-14-2012, 04:59 AM

Not sure what Lightroom version you have, but in LR4 you can pull the noise reduction sliders up higher and then pull sharpening up too, but be sure you mask sharpening (there is a slider for it, hit the option key to slide and you will see screen go from all while to black/white) so you are just sharpening the edges you want and not the noise.

08-13-2012, 09:20 AM	#21
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	To reduce the grain, you can try the noise sliders if you're using ACR or Lightroom (probably other programs have them too) If you're getting color pattern noise, there are very few negative repercussions to turning the Chroma noise slider all the way up. Luminance noise is harder to reduce without getting some softness, but you'll have to decide what constitutes an acceptable trade off. How large do you think your largest shot will be printed? The other thing you might try in some of the pictures that look "flashy", is do a levels adjustment to bring the background up, but then mask out your subject. In PS you would probably want to use a levels adjustment layer with a layer mask, in Lightroom, adjust the exposure/fill/blacks sliders until the background looks right, and then use an adjustment brush with the opposite settings to undo those effects on your subject. You should be able to restore quite a bit of balance, and it will be very hard to notice that you've done anything in PP. Last edited by maxfield_photo; 08-13-2012 at 09:56 AM.

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08-04-2012, 04:50 AM	#16
Medium FormatPro Banned Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Charleston & Pittsburgh Photos: Albums Posts: 1,668	Originally posted by JenniferLeigh As for memory cards, I would take several smaller cards (4gb) instead of 16gb cards. Worse case scenario, if a card fails - all your eggs are not in one basket That's one of the major items I don't like about Pentax. That it would appear as though most of the Pentax bodies don't have twin memory card options.

08-04-2012, 07:06 PM	#17
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by maxfield_photo Remember Pentax cameras won't sync with a flash above 1/180th, so that is your max shutter speed if you're using the flash. On the plus side though the flash will freeze the action for you, especially in dim lighting, so your effective shutter speed will probably be closer to 1/8000th. . Unless you are using the in-camera flash, the AF360 and AF540 can certainly do high speed sync if you set the flash to HSS.

08-09-2012, 08:06 AM	#18
D4rknezz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,196	Originally posted by jennverr Hi all, on flash: my main photog said: keep high ISO, low SS, and low aperture on the camera. okay so if I have all those settings on the camera, what exactly do I need to dial into the flash at that point? I think that is where I get confused. Hi, i believe the reason he said this is to minimize the obvious 'Flashed" look had you kept your camera on , say, auto mode. This information works if the flash is PTTL. So you dont need to dial anything else in. Longer explanation : a. By keeping ISO as high as your particular camera can go without ruining the picture - the camera will dial less flash power. b. By keeping low shutter speed (as low as you can go without introducing motion blur) - the camera will dial even less flash power. c. By ...low aperture I am going to assume you mean max aperture, which is 2.8, 3.5 ...as opposed to F11. And by going low aperture number (maximum value), the camera will dial even less flash power. All of this combined - will produce flash just enough to lit the scene naturally...rather than Deer in a headlight shots. That said, you dont have PTTL - so you have to dial your flash manually. Try bouncing your flash as much as you can, and know how to dial power in your flash very well. Get in the house a little early, and take some test shots to make sure you get the correct exposure. Once you are comfortable with the flash power, you can keep it with minimal changes while you are in the same location. If you move to a different location, make sure you test your flash again.

08-09-2012, 01:40 PM	#19
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by D4rknezz Hi, i believe the reason he said this is to minimize the obvious 'Flashed" look had you kept your camera on , say, auto mode. This information works if the flash is PTTL. So you dont need to dial anything else in. Longer explanation : a. By keeping ISO as high as your particular camera can go without ruining the picture - the camera will dial less flash power. b. By keeping low shutter speed (as low as you can go without introducing motion blur) - the camera will dial even less flash power. c. By ...low aperture I am going to assume you mean max aperture, which is 2.8, 3.5 ...as opposed to F11. And by going low aperture number (maximum value), the camera will dial even less flash power. All of this combined - will produce flash just enough to lit the scene naturally...rather than Deer in a headlight shots. That said, you dont have PTTL - so you have to dial your flash manually. Try bouncing your flash as much as you can, and know how to dial power in your flash very well. Get in the house a little early, and take some test shots to make sure you get the correct exposure. Once you are comfortable with the flash power, you can keep it with minimal changes while you are in the same location. If you move to a different location, make sure you test your flash again. I am no expert, so take this with grains of salt.. -given the subject distance, both iso and aperture will affect the flash output, therefore the flash needs to know what iso and aperture is set in the camera. PTTL helps the flash to determine the subject distance (hence a pre-flash) before the shutter so the flash output is based on inverse square law for proper exposure without clipping highlights -shutter speed affects the subject motion (or stop subject movement as many prefer to call it 'freeze' the subject); if speed is not fast enough there will be ghost effect which may or may not be the desire result -shutter speed, iso and aperture all affect the ambient light (mostly refer to as background); flash output also plays a small part if the background to subject distance is close. Therefore depending on the situation and what you want to achieve in the outcome, there is no set rule or 'auto' mode that will satisfy everyone's need. When the parameters are properly applied, I have found that PTTL to be quite accurate (so does other ETTL or ITTL from Canikon). Also, taking RAW will most likely save the day.... (hence I am not a big fan or huge megapixel sensor).

08-13-2012, 08:35 AM	#20
jennverr Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: washington, dc Posts: 224 Original Poster	Well saturday was the big day.... and wow that was intense! I have to say, I am still in a bit of pain. lots of moving, crouching, contorting... There are some really good shots. There are some really BAD shots. There are a lot of "soft" shots. There are a lot of blur shots. There is a lot of grain. But, as I said , there are some good ones too, and I think despite not being as sharp as I would like some of them to be, they still came out okay. I am not used to shooting people, why do they have to move around so much?! I did shoot the bride getting ready, and her bridesmaids, but most of the other shots were left up to the main photog. I did get some good "different angles" of other scenes, good shots of the groomsmen and great detail shots (closeup of dress, table decor, cake, etc - the stuff I am good at!). All in all, I shot about 1400-1500 between the 2 cameras. I am working on the PP now, and need to really figure out how to soften some of the grain in these. The flash photos I did, some came out okay, but overall I am still really unhappy with the flash. I wonder if I should just get a PTTL flash and let it do the work for me? As I mentioned I was working with a Nikon SB 24. I had the ISO set to 200, shutter at 1/100, and kept the widest aperture possible, then had the flash set to auto and those settings entered in. I still felt like I did not get really any "ambient" light, and everything really had that "flash" look to it. I had to rely a lot on natural light, because I am not sure what would be worst, having grain and softness, or having nasty "flash" look. THIS IS HARD! That's all I have to say. But I definitely want to do it again! I will see if I can post some photos here later. Maybe some without faces or something... Thanks again everyone.

08-13-2012, 09:36 AM	#22
jennverr Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: washington, dc Posts: 224 Original Poster	Originally posted by maxfield_photo To reduce the grain, you can try the noise sliders if you're using ACR or Lightroom (probably other programs have them too) If you're getting color pattern noise, there are very few negative repercussions to turning the Chroma noise slider all the way up. Luminance noise is harder to reduce without getting some softness, but you'll have to decide what constitutes an acceptable trade off. How large do you think your largest shot will be printed? The other thing you might try in some of the pictures that look "flashy", is do a levels adjustment to bring the background up, but then mask out your subject. In PS you would probably want to use a levels adjustment layer with a layer mask, in Lightroom, adjust the exposure/fill/blacks sliders util the background looks right, and then use an adjustment brush with the opposite settings to undo those effects on your subject. You should be able to restore quite a bit of balance, and it will be very hard to notice that you've done anything in PP. Okay thanks! Yes I am using lightroom. I need to figure out more about how to use the adjustment brush in LR. Will keep thses tips in mind.

08-13-2012, 10:15 AM	#23
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	Now that I think about it, a better way might be to leave the tone sliders alone, and use the exposure slider on the adjustment brush, and just use it on your background, and leave your subject untouched. Try it both ways. Create a virtual copy of your original and edit one with the first technique I mentioned (tone sliders + "undo" brush to mask the subject), and then try the exposure slider on the adjustment brush just on the background. See which you like better. Which is more convincing? Also make judicious use of the "auto mask" check box of the adjustment brush. It's pretty smart about content. I normally set my 'A' brush to something large with a small amount of feather, maybe 25, and have auto mask checked. Then I set my 'B' brush feather to 0 and turn off the auto mask, this is for quickly masking large areas that don't come close to the boundaries of your subject. Usually I turn the auto mask off of my erase brush, and just work with a small brush in the areas where I've gotten some adjustment where I don't want it. Also I'll turn the overlay mask on and off to check myself. Sometimes I even intentionally overdue the sliders so that I can see the effect, and then back it off once I'm satisfied that I've gotten everything that I want, and nothing I don't.

08-13-2012, 11:16 AM	#24
D4rknezz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,196	A different take on it would be to leave the noise and turn the picture into a classy BW. I do that with my pictures - as long as not ALL of them end up being BW. The easiest way to introduce ambient light to your shots is to set your shots for the ambient light. (i.e, set your ISO, aperture and Shutter Speed to whats needed to take the shot). In door on a normal day, I'd say you are probably looking at ISO 400 or 800, f2.8 and 1/30 - 1/80 shutter speed. (this is by experience...your mileage may vary depending on how bright your rooms are). Once you determine the setting for ambient light, under expose it a little, and then introduce the flash. Good job on your first wedding. Cheers

08-14-2012, 04:59 AM	#25
Allison Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 667	Not sure what Lightroom version you have, but in LR4 you can pull the noise reduction sliders up higher and then pull sharpening up too, but be sure you mask sharpening (there is a slider for it, hit the option key to slide and you will see screen go from all while to black/white) so you are just sharpening the edges you want and not the noise.