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02-15-2008, 03:13 PM   #1
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White umbrella with silver reflective interior

guys, i did not notice that i was buying a white umbrella.
i think white umbrellas loses more light than black ones.
i am using an sunpak 383 as a main flash.
although i can easily bounce its light from ceiling, i am not succesful when using my white umbrella.
i use it like in the attachment and put it very close to subject, even with full power i could not get enough power.
i am succesful when my flash is aimed at the top of the umbrella, not the center
any idea, how much light does it lose????
halil

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02-18-2008, 07:33 PM   #2
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White umbrellas, especially the translucent shoot-through type, are extremely inefficient when used to bounce light. With some, you can expect to lose as much as two thirds of the light output (hard to say exactly since no two umbrellas are the same) and obviously larger umbrellas consume more light than smaller ones. This is one reason I always recommend smaller (30-35 inch) silver or soft silver umbrellas with portable strobes.

Regardless, based on your description (successful aiming at top, but not center) and this flash unit's guide number, something else may be going on here. Are you using a manual flash mode instead of the auto mode? Since the light sensor is located in the front of the flash, aiming directly into the umbrella would cause the auto mode to reduce light dramatically.

stewart
02-18-2008, 07:59 PM   #3
and
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if you use a translucent umbrella you should be shooting through it. if it has a black back coer then you can bounce in it. if you need more light when shooting into the umbrella then you can get a silver one or one of the more rare zebra ones
02-19-2008, 01:53 AM   #4
hll
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first, thank you for your answers!!!
i don't use a translucent umbrella. interior of it is silver and the exterior is white, i am sure it is not translucent
i tried both manual and auto. my flash guide no is 120.
is aiming top something right or???
do you aim to the center???
thanks

02-19-2008, 02:18 AM   #5
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Ah, my mistake, I got too caught up in the picture and didnt see the thread title... ops..

I havent been that carefull with aiming when I have used mine, I put the flash on an umbrella swivel and fire away.

How are you triggering the flash, could it be a triggering problem?
02-19-2008, 03:06 AM   #6
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According to the advert you included, you do have a shoot through style umbrella. I loose about a stop and a half when I use mine as a reflective umbrella compared to my standard umbrellas.
02-19-2008, 07:59 AM   #7
hll
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guys, sorry i am confused.
i tested it, light decreases very much when i shoot through the umbrella, it is much more effective when using it as bouncing material. its interior is covered by silver material.
do you think it is still a shoot through???
thanks

02-19-2008, 08:42 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by hll Quote
(snip) i don't use a translucent umbrella. (snip) is aiming top something right or??? do you aim to the center???

Yes, the flash unit is generally aimed towards the center of the umbrella. The image in your first message shows a translucent shoot-through umbrella, which is why everyone is thinking in that direction. Regardless, when bounced into a silver reflective umbrella, you can expect to lose from 1/3 to 1/2 of the light output (perhaps even more with soft reflective types). Again, hard to say exactly since no two umbrellas are identical. And, again, larger umbrellas consume more light than smaller ones.

One last possibility. Make sure the flash unit is far enough away from the umbrella interior. A portable strobe, versus a typical large studio strobe, throws a comparatively narrow beam of light. As such, the flash unit should be far enough from the umbrella interior to allow that light to spread some before hitting the umbrella. Any closer and the flash unit itself may actually block a good amount of the light bounced back.

I've run out of suggestions at this point. Therefore, if nothing said so far provides a satisfactory answer, the only option left is to expand the discussion greatly to include mounting (light stand or other), location (how far is the umbrella setup from the subject and where are you aiming it), metering (what are you using to meter the light and set exposure), your subject (what are you trying to take an image of), and so on.

stewart


By the way, and certainly off-topic, I once lived (two years) near Istanbul (across the sea near a town called Yalova) many years ago. The Sea of Marmara and surrounding countryside is beautiful and Istanbul itself is an very interesting city. I'm looking forward to a return visit some day.
-

Last edited by stewart_photo; 02-19-2008 at 09:05 AM.
02-19-2008, 08:50 AM   #9
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No I think he just got confused by the picture as well. if it has silver material on the inside then its not a shoot through umbrella.

Now I am still interested in how you are triggering this flash?
02-21-2008, 04:13 AM   #10
hll
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hi guys,
stewart thank you very much for your help, i will try your suggestions as soon as possible. i will inform you.

"and", like you said i think it is not a shoot through umbrella because of its silver material inside.
i trigger it with ebay wireless triggers, but i am sure they really work without problems, because i am succesful while bouncing it light from the ceiling.

(off topic ) stewart, i am glad to hear that you know istanbul and found it interesting. i really love İstanbul and think that it is a fantastic city for photographers. i will share some photos as soon as possible. i have been in Hamburg ang Cologne. They were just wonderful!!!!
03-14-2008, 04:14 PM   #11
hll
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hi again,
i think i tried everthing and i failed (no, umbrella failed)
today i replaced it with 85 cm one with a black exterior (the old one was 42" (105cm) and had a white exterior). thanks God, i am very glad that i changed the stupid one. the new one is great!!!
thanks again...
03-15-2008, 09:34 AM   #12
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Well the black backing is stopping light from spilling out the back and probably helping reflect light a little more but I've never noticed such a night\day change when switching like you have.. But if alls sorted its sorted! And yes for reflective try and make sure it has a black backing otherwise your wasting light.
Thanks
03-15-2008, 01:31 PM   #13
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Of course, there are many different umbrella designs, Mikhail. In the reflective category, there are the semi-transparent types (the 60-40% designs advertised as both reflected and shoot-through), the beaded types (prismatic), soft silver types (reflective cloth), hard silver types (laminates), designs with colored panels, and others as well. And there are just about as many transparent shoot-through umbrella designs. Each display markedly different behavior, which is why it is so difficult to predict light loss without testing each. At the same time, umbrella size can equally impact light output.

Finally, add creative interpretation (the photographer's ideas of perfect lighting) to all that and you might understand why so many avoid making specific umbrella recommendations (check out some of B&H's noncommittal comments about umbrellas in the product descriptions, for example). The closest I dare go is recommending smaller silver types for portable strobes (as you suggest, the efficiency of reflective surface, not a black backing, is the key). How small and which silver type (prismatic, soft reflective cloth, hard laminates, etc) is something for the buyer to ultimately decide after some experience with each.

stewart
03-17-2008, 01:01 AM   #14
hll
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yes mikhail, it was really a day/night change. the white exterior does matter.
i am glad i get rid of it.
i am thankful to all of you, i benefited a lot from your experiences...
halil
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