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02-29-2008, 09:13 AM | #1 |
Am I asking for too much?! Am I being bamboozled?!
I recently (and stupidly) picked up my camera back without realizing it was open. My K10D fell out less than 1ft and hit a hardwood floor it crack the front frame to the lens mount. Here is the image: Greatly dismayed, I performed numerous test to check its functionality. Luckily, it functioned exactly as it did before the drop. (i.e. 1-1.5 stops uderexposed!) regardless, the point is that it functioned exactly as it did before, leading me to believe that the damage was purely cosmetic. So I contacted Pentax and discussed the damage. I asked about the broken piece and we determined that the cost of said piece was $11.50 and they were in stock. In addition to the front piece there is a small piece of broken plastic inside the built in flash compartment and a missing tiny little screw. I did not find out the cost of that piece. So I decided to send it to Colorado for an estimate, which finally came in the mail yesterday. They estimated $108 for parts, $110 for labor and $15 for shipping. A total of $233. Thats all it said. When my car needs work done, I always receive an estimate which includes each part and price involved. Simple as that. So I sent an email asking for a list of parts needing replacement and the work done. This is the reply I received: Quote: Dear Sir/Madam, Thank you for contacting Pentax. The camera was found to have damage caused by impact or excessive pressure which requires replacement of the damaged covers and complete replacement and realignment of the interior and exterior mechanisms. We cannot provide an itemized price list of all of the parts needed. If you are in need of further assistance, please respond to this email or call our technical support center at 800-877-0155. Sincerely, Erica R. Pentax Imaging Technical Support Thanks for bearing through this rant. | |
02-29-2008, 09:37 AM | #2 |
dude, sell it for 200 bucks for parts to whoever wants it add 300 dollars which you would have spent fixing it buy yourself a gently used non dropped K10D from someone for ~500 bucks. | |
02-29-2008, 09:48 AM | #3 |
I don't think it's bamboozling but it is the price you pay for the only game in town. I would not want to have a local camera tech mucking around inside my K10D. I don't care how far it fell, it did take a heck of a hit. If it were me, I'd get it repaired by Pentax. | |
02-29-2008, 09:55 AM | #4 |
Site Supporter |
I think you may find that they quite possibly put the camera on some form of optical bench and found misallignments that you cannot see. They then reached a conclusion that it would require some disassembly and re-asembly to reallign things after they change out the obvious broken parts. If you look at the labor charge, they expect to be inside your camera for about 1 1/2 hours, Until they get inside they simply don't know. you have a hard choice, spend the few hundred dollars, or take the one obvious part, assuming you know how to replace it, and do it yourself, without addressing any of the potential allignment problems, or as someone else has suggested sell it. no matter what you do, you are going to be out some money, and if pentax repair it and give you a warranty on the repair, personally I would take that approach. I don't know how many people are gping to purchase a broken camera regardless of claims it is working. |
02-29-2008, 10:01 AM | #5 |
How am I supposed to be able to know what's going on in there. To my eyes, there was no loss of IQ or functionality of any kind. Being that its the only game in town they can tell me and charge me whatever they want. I'm a little suspicious because 'they can't provide me with an itemized list'.....why not? If they put together the cost of parts that list has to be somewhere and they can certainly email it to me. | |
02-29-2008, 10:10 AM | #6 |
Auto repair businesses have to "do the details" so you don't think they are cheating you and so you don't have "issues" at the conclusion of the repairs. The Pentax quote is impressively low, they definitely aren't cheating you and frankly, that type of repair business has never been into the details like the auto repair guys have had to be. Notice that watch repair shops aren't any more specific, nor are computer repair shops (many times). I have had repairs done in Colorado half a dozen times in the last 15 years, and they've always been inexpensive, reasonable and quick (with the exception of an F* 600/4 that had to take a Japanese vacation for a few months). The fact that they want to be thorough is not a negative. Let them go through it and do whatever they want, they aren't charging you much for it. | |
02-29-2008, 10:20 AM | #7 |
I agree with Gooshin. I would just sell it for parts (or try to fix it myself), and buy a used K10D with the money (there is one for about $450 on the marketplace forum!) | |
02-29-2008, 10:28 AM | #8 |
Additionally, because of Pentax's historically low cost for repairs they appear to barely operate their repair facility as a profit center. It seems like it's only a customer service thing, not a profit maker. That said, if they pull a technician away from my repair job to waste 45 minutes on detail work, looking up parts numbers and pricing, composing emails etc. for you, then they get less work done. They would also have to add costs to both you and me because suddenly, they are having to recoup "communication" time on each job. Traditionally, they guestimate how much, you decide yah or nay and they can keep working on something important like fixing my gear! If you don't trust them, then don't accept their bid. Who cares what the details and parts are? If you like the cost estimate then go forward and quit wasting your own stress levels worrying about stuff you can't change. You sound like a person who really likes to have control. Well guess what...on this one you lost control when you dropped your camera. Control now is in the repair facilities hands. Either accept it or toss the camera in the corner of a closet. P.S. You might not even get a guestimate from most other manufacturers and from my experience, Pentax actually honors their guesstimate as a firm bid. Also, please place a value on your time. Take whatever you make at your job and double it because you are underpaid. Now look at the time you've already spent on researching this issue, sending the camera away and now browbeating them for more specifics than they are comfortable giving out. Add in self repair hours--because you don't repair cameras daily, it will take you a minimum of two hours with half of that being thought time. Plus, the time spent on this forum. Hell, you could have thrown the camera away and bought a new one and you'd still be up a couple hundred dollars vs the method you are currently using. | |
02-29-2008, 11:25 AM | #9 |
That said, if they pull a technician away from my repair job to waste 45 minutes on detail work, looking up parts numbers and pricing, composing emails etc. for you, then they get less work done. They would also have to add costs to both you and me because suddenly, they are having to recoup "communication" time on each job. Traditionally, they guestimate how much, you decide yah or nay and they can keep working on something important like fixing my gear! If you don't trust them, then don't accept their bid. Obviously I do. That's why I asked for it. Also, please place a value on your time. Take whatever you make at your job and double it because you are underpaid. Now look at the time you've already spent on researching this issue, sending the camera away and now browbeating them for more specifics than they are comfortable giving out. Add in self repair hours--because you don't repair cameras daily, it will take you a minimum of two hours with half of that being thought time. Plus, the time spent on this forum. Hell, you could have thrown the camera away and bought a new one and you'd still be up a couple hundred dollars vs the method you are currently using. Don't really see where you're going with this. All I asked for was a list. That's it. Just a list. Really, the email between myself and Pentax were like, 2 to 3 sentences long. You're also making the assumption that I'm losing money by trying to repair the.........which I'm pretty sure I would try to do at work....where I make money. | |
02-29-2008, 12:56 PM | #10 |
Jeff, I'm no expert with camera repair but I've had other electronics repaired before. I imagine what is happening here is Pentax has quoted you the price to replace components of your camera. By components I mean preassembled parts that work together as a cohessive subunit of your camera. I come to this conclusion because its often easier/cheaper to replace entire sections of electronics that are faulty than it is to troubleshoot & repair individual parts. The price of these components are usually cheaper than the labor involved in dismantling equipment. You see the real enemy to both service provider & customer is labor. The cost of labor in the US is quite high and skilled technicians are well paid for their expertise. The labor cost to take a K10D apart piece by piece could be more than the price of the K10D itself. So its more cost effective to determine defective areas and replace them as modules as opposed to pieces. Additionally since Pentax is providing free quotes for repair I believe they would be disinclined to take your entire camera apart to determine the precise cost of repair & affected parts, have you decline their offer and have to reassemble the broken camera & ship it back. Not only would they be taking a huge loss on labor they would be liable should you complain the camera was worse than you shipped it. I think if you view the situation from this perspective you might understand Pentax's responses better. They are not an auto mechanic and follow a different business model that makes sense based on the volume & economics of the camera repair business. Regarding your question, I believe you are making a bigger deal of this than you need to. I believe you have all the information you need to make a decision on whether Pentax will repair the camera for you. I don't believe they are acting unreasonable in their responses. I may be out of line but I believe you are looking for a parts list to determine the cost of repairing it yourself. While I see how that might be useful to you, Pentax would probably only provide such a list to you if you were willing to pay for their technician's time to provide it. I don't believe they should have to provide it because this doesn't follow their business model. Again I'm not an expert but I hope this was helpful. | |
02-29-2008, 01:17 PM | #11 |
INSURANCE ect. I recently (and stupidly) picked up my camera back without realizing it was open. My K10D fell out less than 1ft and hit a hardwood floor it crack the front frame to the lens mount. Here is the image: Greatly dismayed, I performed numerous test to check its functionality. Luckily, it functioned exactly as it did before the drop. (i.e. 1-1.5 stops uderexposed!) regardless, the point is that it functioned exactly as it did before, leading me to believe that the damage was purely cosmetic. So I contacted Pentax and discussed the damage. I asked about the broken piece and we determined that the cost of said piece was $11.50 and they were in stock. In addition to the front piece there is a small piece of broken plastic inside the built in flash compartment and a missing tiny little screw. I did not find out the cost of that piece. So I decided to send it to Colorado for an estimate, which finally came in the mail yesterday. They estimated $108 for parts, $110 for labor and $15 for shipping. A total of $233. Thats all it said. When my car needs work done, I always receive an estimate which includes each part and price involved. Simple as that. So I sent an email asking for a list of parts needing replacement and the work done. This is the reply I received: I understand there might be internal damage, but it was working fine. I asked again for a list of parts. Why can they not provide an itemized list? Is it too much to ask for? Thanks for bearing through this rant. Happen to "rider" your photo equipment? Then it would be replaced or repaired AND paid by your ins. company. Usual fees are $1 per $100 of coverage per year...... | |
02-29-2008, 01:23 PM | #12 |
I'd be willing to bet that instead of waisting their time fixing your beater, they'd just DOA it and send you a new one and SAY it was your old one.. They'd do a firmware copy/paste and be done with it.. We even do laser serial numbers now on the fly.. Part doesn't get a serial # until it's bought and paid for..
| |
02-29-2008, 01:38 PM | #13 |
Whoops, there I go grossly overstating my point again. Sorry, got carried away a bit. It would appear that we have different personality types and I'll get over it. However, I think Pentax's service dept. is also of a similar personality type to mine. They throw out a nice guess of a number and fully expect that it's low enough that most folks just say, "Sure, fix it!" Their invoices on past work are ridiculously devoid of detail. Even a lens that took a vacation to Japan came back to me with an invoice indicating, "Repaired lens serial #x, Shipping and Insurance $x total $275" Obviously the shipping to Japan was not billed to me. Note that your request is likely a bit outside the norms for them. A repair shop would request the spec. sheets and diagrams--that you requested--and then troubleshoot on their own and send a brief order with part numbers. They may follow up with a phone call to help with the actual repair. In your case you did what a repair shop would do AND what a general repair public guy would do--sent the item in for a bid. I suspect most of their customers treat the situation like I do and either like the bid and approve or dislike the bid and get the item returned. Since their track record with me would suggest that they work without specificity, your request for specificity may have them a bit "on their heels" and on the defensive. I agree that the $108 parts portion of the quote seems to indicate that they have specifics already figured out. In which case why not send you the details? That may be the case, or they may use "flat rate" pricing and your repair was estimated based on the area damaged: lens mount, flash, bottom cover, or whatever. This is how most auto repair estimates are now done. They could have a person with a personality issue with your request(s). That person could be thinking that you couldn't diagnose the entire problem yourself--or didn't want to trust your diagnosis enough to order parts, so you are "playing them" for parts numbers based on them doing a "free" tear down and diagnostic. Then you could buy the parts for a fraction of the cost of the complete repair, fix it yourself--with a couple hours of "free" phone time with their technicians. Would this be right for one of their people to choose to play their cards that close to their chest? Nope, they should assist you, and I've always found them to be more than accomodating both in person and on the phone. But it's possible that you have someone on the other end questioning your motives. It's not right, but it's common in all businesses. This would go back to the question of profitability on their part--by the way, I hope they are profiting, otherwise they won't be able to continue to do business--it's just that their very reasonable rates don't suggest anything "fishy" about their pricing. Finally, are you being bamboozled? Yes and no. You are probably being bamboozled regarding the part numbers--either they prefer not to give out all the numbers or they work on a flat rate guesstimate and the person who prepared your bid doesn't actually know the exact parts yet. Regarding fairness of pricing and the question of are you being gouged for too much money. IMHO you aren't getting bamboozled on price. In the end, you want specifics and they seldom work with specificity. Their business model is a mismatch with your personality. The good news is that the situation will likely work itself out amenably for everyone. Keep in touch with them, and they'll get it handled. | |
02-29-2008, 01:56 PM | #14 |
Indeed, I'm sure I'm making a bigger deal out of this than its worth. The initial response from the Pentax rep was Quote: The camera was found to have damage caused by impact or excessive pressure which requires replacement of the damaged covers and complete replacement and realignment of the interior and exterior mechanisms. We cannot provide an itemized price list of all of the parts needed. Jeff, I may be out of line but I believe you are looking for a parts list to determine the cost of repairing it yourself. While I see how that might be useful to you, Pentax would probably only provide such a list to you if you were willing to pay for their technician's time to provide it. I don't believe they should have to provide it because this doesn't follow their business model. Your partially correct about the list of parts. Yes, in one way it is in order to determine the cost of repairing myself. In another way, its to determine what I think needs to be done to it. Now, of course, I can't make an expert decision on this, but I do know that from the week I spent shooting with it while damaged, I found the problem to be nothing more than cosmetic. That being said once obtaining said list, I would determine the cost of parts, that I would be concerned about......the cosmetic parts. Which I doubt would add up to $108. The cosmetic part with the most damage costs $11.50. Again this was under the assumption that they had already determined exactly what needed to be done. But in the most recent email from them, they haven't taken it apart. They've glanced at it and come up with a guesstimate. So you and Ron are correct. Which definitely makes sense for a free estimate. I feel like this whole thread could have been avoided had an explanation of how the initial estimate been performed. Then again Pentax didn't know what kind of personality they were dealing with! Who knows....maybe they'll fix the 1-1.5 underexposed readings. | |
02-29-2008, 02:04 PM | #15 |
Site Supporter | Indeed, I'm sure I'm making a bigger deal out of this than its worth. The initial response from the Pentax rep was And it was most specifically the "complete replacement and realignment of the interior and exterior mechanisms" that made me think. That basically screams to me "we need to replace every part of your camera". I don't believe that much work needs to be done. Your partially correct about the list of parts. Yes, in one way it is in order to determine the cost of repairing myself. In another way, its to determine what I think needs to be done to it. Now, of course, I can't make an expert decision on this, but I do know that from the week I spent shooting with it while damaged, I found the problem to be nothing more than cosmetic. That being said once obtaining said list, I would determine the cost of parts, that I would be concerned about......the cosmetic parts. Which I doubt would add up to $108. The cosmetic part with the most damage costs $11.50. Again this was under the assumption that they had already determined exactly what needed to be done. But in the most recent email from them, they haven't taken it apart. They've glanced at it and come up with a guesstimate. So you and Ron are correct. Which definitely makes sense for a free estimate. I feel like this whole thread could have been avoided had an explanation of how the initial estimate been performed. Then again Pentax didn't know what kind of personality they were dealing with! Who knows....maybe they'll fix the 1-1.5 underexposed readings. Upon reflection it is most likely the flash area that needs to be replaced, however, even if they were repl;acing 100% of the internals, for $108 [B]WHO CARES[B] If you get the camera back for a reasonable price with a gaurantee, or at least the remainder of your gaurantee in tact, you are in good shape. |
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