How was this photo done?

PBandJ · 03-16-2013, 04:09 AM

Ok, first off, I'm not being a brownnoser

this came up as a random photo from the gallery. I was intrigued and thought I'd try to see if the photographer was still around, and lo and behold it is Adam! Maybe he'll come post in this thread.

Anyway, I'm trying to learn more, and my newbieness would have made me use a wide angle lens, whereas he used 120mm. Presumably for the increased DOF. And I like that a lot.

So I have 3 questions:
In a situation like this,
1- what would be used for the focus point- the middle the the group of bikes? Or the hyperfocal point? or ? and
2- where would you stand? I did an online dof calculator, and at 20 feet you get about 3 ft Dof, and 40 feet away you get 10 feet DOF. So about 40' away?
3- any tips to keep in mind if I come across a situation like this?
Edit 4-- wouLd you use a tripod?
Thx

Last edited by PBandJ; 03-16-2013 at 04:17 AM.

russell2pi · 03-16-2013, 04:22 AM

On the lens choice - if you stood closer and used a wide-angle, you would get much more perspective effect, i.e. the wheels at the back would look a lot smaller than the wheels at the front.

In practice, DOF doesn't change with focal length as much as people think because with a longer focal length, from a given viewpoint, you can usually fit much less variation in distance into the frame. In many cases for the same framing at different distances (and so different focal lengths) the DOF will be about the same but what does change in a major way is the perspective effects.

Anvh · 03-16-2013, 04:27 AM

DOF is not directly connected to the focal length, what i mean to say is that a different focal length does not automaticly mean different DOF.
Magnification and aperture is the most basic that decides the DOF.

A longer focal length is chosen here to change the stand point/perspective, you get compresion effect here. The first bike is almost just as large as the last bike.
If you want to get simliar framing with a wide angle you would need to move in closer and with that the size differnce becomes larger since you're chaning your perspective.

Anvh · 03-16-2013, 04:32 AM

Okay take 2.

The second part is not fully correct.
The first sentance, the focal length does not change the perspective, it's where you stand and that creates the compresion effect. He choses a longer focal length to get this kind of framing.
If you stand at the same point but with a wider lens then the compresion between the bikes will still be the same, you only get more on the photo.

Jimfear · 03-16-2013, 07:23 AM

My try at answers.

1. Hyperfocal would not work here as you are not aiming at getting focus to infinity, so pretty much set the focus where you want it bearing in mind that DOF will be approximately 1/3 in front of that point, and 2/3 behind.
2. I would start by standing in a spot that can produce the framing I want, then start thinking about DOF and choosing the aperture appropriate.
3. Take many photos from many angles? To see which one you like the most?
4. Only if I had to.

Anvh · 03-16-2013, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Jimfear

bearing in mind that DOF will be approximately 1/3 in front of that point, and 2/3 behind.

There is a point where DOF will have that ratio but DOF range from 1:1 with macro to 1:infinity at the hyperfocal point and further.
I know that 1:2 ratio is often given as a rule or estimate but it only come close in some cases so it might be better to forget it.

PBandJ · 03-16-2013, 08:07 AM

Thanks. I guess when I look at something, I only consider framing. i need to start thinking about DOF and perspective more. To me, it's still a crap shoot, because it's not second nature to me yet what the final rsdult will look like, which generates a lot of duds. And then when i get back to the computer to see the result it's very often not possible to go back to try shooting again.

Franky2step · 03-16-2013, 08:26 AM

Focus Stacking

Anvh · 03-16-2013, 08:30 AM

I doubt that Adam went out of the house with the mind set to take this photo.
With these sort of things you just have your mind and eyes open for a posiable shot, that's part of the training.

Primes actually might be helpful, it forces you to use a specific focal length so you get used to what the lens sees.
Zooms often make you lazy when it comes to perspectives since you can change the framing without moving, so you are less motivated to move and find something that works.

stepmac · 03-16-2013, 07:19 PM

Well, first you've got to line up all of those bikes. And yes I'd use a tripod, I always use a tripod if I can. If I was confronted with this shot I'd use Av and shoot the range and then change the lens and do it all over again. Looks like a filter was used to soften the light. I'd try a 28mm lens, tight F stop at 100 ISO to start and trip the shutter with a delay. Might work.

Jimfear · 03-18-2013, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Anvh

There is a point where DOF will have that ratio but DOF range from 1:1 with macro to 1:infinity at the hyperfocal point and further.
I know that 1:2 ratio is often given as a rule or estimate but it only come close in some cases so it might be better to forget it.

I hadn't even considered that this would be a variable thing. Now that I have checked it I see that is varies a lot depending on focal length, distance to subject, and aperture. Luckily there seems to be a linear relationship between them all, making it easy to predict how much you will have in front and behind the focus point. Very interesting, thanks for correcting me.

Anvh · 03-18-2013, 10:54 AM

@jimfear
In case you want to read more about it Depth of field
He also shows indeed that there is a system behind it, it's more a logarithm to my eyes.
He also shows some other interesting facts that are less known.

SyncGuy · 03-21-2013, 08:30 PM

Sorry, i'm a noob here too, everywhere actually, but i think i wanna give it a shot. ;P

**1- what would be used for the focus point- the middle the the group of bikes? Or the hyperfocal point?

Me: This is REALLY tough to answer as it all boils down to what the photographer sees and decides how the image will turn out to be.

**2- where would you stand? I did an online dof calculator, and at 20 feet you get about 3 ft Dof, and 40 feet away you get 10 feet DOF. So about 40' away?

Me: Also, it depends on what are the image that you are wanting it to turn out to be.

**3- any tips to keep in mind if I come across a situation like this?

Me: It's just like any other photo opportunities that present to you. You'll have to decide how the image will turn out to be. This picture of Adam's is pretty much his "view", yours might differ. But nevertheless, if you see such opportunity some day, just imitate this picture. Imitation to learn, and innovate to progress. Gotta try it, to learn it.

**Edit 4-- wouLd you use a tripod

Me: I'd use a tripod for any shots if possible. But of course, it all boils down to the factors that are in my favor, accordingly to my decision on how the image will turn out. In this case, why not? Provided i have it then. If not, i'd just decide on a hand-holdable shutter speed "required".

All in all, it boils down to how you'd like the image to turn out. Otherwise, i believe that you, as am i, are kind of captivated by this exquisite image and has set your mind thinking on how to produce it.
What you'd be interested to know is actually on why he used the FL of 200m. As what russell and ANVH states, it has got to do with perspective effect.

Usage of a long FL usually seems to be used mainly for "zooming in" to an intended subject, but it actually affects the background size, therefore perspective.
That's why there are certain people who uses a long FL to shoot landscape and stitch, contrary to the normal concept of wide-angle lenses, to get everything in.

russell2pi · 03-21-2013, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by SyncGuy

Usage of a long FL usually seems to be used mainly for "zooming in" to an intended subject, but it actually affects the background size, therefore perspective.
That's why there are certain people who uses a long FL to shoot landscape and stitch, contrary to the normal concept of wide-angle lenses, to get everything in.

Well ... yes and no .. unless you move the camera location, stitching won't alter the perspective at all. And the image look just the same (apart from factors like resolution, DOF etc) compared to a wide angle lens with a field of view equivalent to what you are stitching up to. (Likewise, cropping or zooming with a zoom lens doesn't alter perspective.)

The perspective is completely determined by the location of the camera. Put your eye where the camera is and you will see the same perspective with your eye. The FL of the lens doesn't change that. A wide angle will record a larger field of view and a long lens a smaller field of view but the alignments and apparent sizes of objects in the scene can't be altered unless you move the camera. Think about it - if it did, one object may obscure another with one lens, but not with another. How's that possible? Either one object is behind the other from that point of view, or it's not.

SyncGuy · 03-22-2013, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by russell2pi

Well ... yes and no .. unless you move the camera location, stitching won't alter the perspective at all. And the image look just the same (apart from factors like resolution, DOF etc) compared to a wide angle lens with a field of view equivalent to what you are stitching up to. (Likewise, cropping or zooming with a zoom lens doesn't alter perspective.)

The perspective is completely determined by the location of the camera. Put your eye where the camera is and you will see the same perspective with your eye. The FL of the lens doesn't change that. A wide angle will record a larger field of view and a long lens a smaller field of view but the alignments and apparent sizes of objects in the scene can't be altered unless you move the camera. Think about it - if it did, one object may obscure another with one lens, but not with another. How's that possible? Either one object is behind the other from that point of view, or it's not.

LoL... Don't mind me.. I had to read and re-read a few times and imagining in my head on what you had mentioned.

Well, i get what you mean... But i guess, "yes and no", we can kinda know what is being touched on here.. Nevertheless, it's good clarification and info for potential confused others. ;P

Thank you!

03-16-2013, 04:09 AM	#1
PBandJ Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Washington DC metro area Photos: Gallery Posts: 480	How was this photo done? Ok, first off, I'm not being a brownnoser this came up as a random photo from the gallery. I was intrigued and thought I'd try to see if the photographer was still around, and lo and behold it is Adam! Maybe he'll come post in this thread. Anyway, I'm trying to learn more, and my newbieness would have made me use a wide angle lens, whereas he used 120mm. Presumably for the increased DOF. And I like that a lot. So I have 3 questions: In a situation like this, 1- what would be used for the focus point- the middle the the group of bikes? Or the hyperfocal point? or ? and 2- where would you stand? I did an online dof calculator, and at 20 feet you get about 3 ft Dof, and 40 feet away you get 10 feet DOF. So about 40' away? 3- any tips to keep in mind if I come across a situation like this? Edit 4-- wouLd you use a tripod? Thx Last edited by PBandJ; 03-16-2013 at 04:17 AM.

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03-16-2013, 04:22 AM	#2
russell2pi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Victoria, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 252	On the lens choice - if you stood closer and used a wide-angle, you would get much more perspective effect, i.e. the wheels at the back would look a lot smaller than the wheels at the front. In practice, DOF doesn't change with focal length as much as people think because with a longer focal length, from a given viewpoint, you can usually fit much less variation in distance into the frame. In many cases for the same framing at different distances (and so different focal lengths) the DOF will be about the same but what does change in a major way is the perspective effects.

03-16-2013, 04:27 AM	#3
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	DOF is not directly connected to the focal length, what i mean to say is that a different focal length does not automaticly mean different DOF. Magnification and aperture is the most basic that decides the DOF. A longer focal length is chosen here to change the stand point/perspective, you get compresion effect here. The first bike is almost just as large as the last bike. If you want to get simliar framing with a wide angle you would need to move in closer and with that the size differnce becomes larger since you're chaning your perspective.

03-16-2013, 04:32 AM	#4
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Okay take 2. The second part is not fully correct. The first sentance, the focal length does not change the perspective, it's where you stand and that creates the compresion effect. He choses a longer focal length to get this kind of framing. If you stand at the same point but with a wider lens then the compresion between the bikes will still be the same, you only get more on the photo.

03-16-2013, 07:23 AM	#5
Jimfear Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Uppsala, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 576	My try at answers. 1. Hyperfocal would not work here as you are not aiming at getting focus to infinity, so pretty much set the focus where you want it bearing in mind that DOF will be approximately 1/3 in front of that point, and 2/3 behind. 2. I would start by standing in a spot that can produce the framing I want, then start thinking about DOF and choosing the aperture appropriate. 3. Take many photos from many angles? To see which one you like the most? 4. Only if I had to.

03-16-2013, 07:41 AM	#6
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by Jimfear bearing in mind that DOF will be approximately 1/3 in front of that point, and 2/3 behind. There is a point where DOF will have that ratio but DOF range from 1:1 with macro to 1:infinity at the hyperfocal point and further. I know that 1:2 ratio is often given as a rule or estimate but it only come close in some cases so it might be better to forget it.

03-16-2013, 08:07 AM	#7
PBandJ Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Washington DC metro area Photos: Gallery Posts: 480 Original Poster	Thanks. I guess when I look at something, I only consider framing. i need to start thinking about DOF and perspective more. To me, it's still a crap shoot, because it's not second nature to me yet what the final rsdult will look like, which generates a lot of duds. And then when i get back to the computer to see the result it's very often not possible to go back to try shooting again.

03-16-2013, 08:26 AM	#8
Franky2step Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 793	Focus Stacking

03-16-2013, 08:30 AM	#9
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	I doubt that Adam went out of the house with the mind set to take this photo. With these sort of things you just have your mind and eyes open for a posiable shot, that's part of the training. Primes actually might be helpful, it forces you to use a specific focal length so you get used to what the lens sees. Zooms often make you lazy when it comes to perspectives since you can change the framing without moving, so you are less motivated to move and find something that works.

03-16-2013, 07:19 PM	#10
stepmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 263	Well, first you've got to line up all of those bikes. And yes I'd use a tripod, I always use a tripod if I can. If I was confronted with this shot I'd use Av and shoot the range and then change the lens and do it all over again. Looks like a filter was used to soften the light. I'd try a 28mm lens, tight F stop at 100 ISO to start and trip the shutter with a delay. Might work.

03-18-2013, 08:50 AM	#11
Jimfear Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Uppsala, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 576	Originally posted by Anvh There is a point where DOF will have that ratio but DOF range from 1:1 with macro to 1:infinity at the hyperfocal point and further. I know that 1:2 ratio is often given as a rule or estimate but it only come close in some cases so it might be better to forget it. I hadn't even considered that this would be a variable thing. Now that I have checked it I see that is varies a lot depending on focal length, distance to subject, and aperture. Luckily there seems to be a linear relationship between them all, making it easy to predict how much you will have in front and behind the focus point. Very interesting, thanks for correcting me.

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03-18-2013, 10:54 AM	#12
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	@jimfear In case you want to read more about it Depth of field He also shows indeed that there is a system behind it, it's more a logarithm to my eyes. He also shows some other interesting facts that are less known.

03-21-2013, 08:30 PM	#13
SyncGuy Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 821	Sorry, i'm a noob here too, everywhere actually, but i think i wanna give it a shot. ;P 1- what would be used for the focus point- the middle the the group of bikes? Or the hyperfocal point? Me: This is REALLY tough to answer as it all boils down to what the photographer sees and decides how the image will turn out to be. 2- where would you stand? I did an online dof calculator, and at 20 feet you get about 3 ft Dof, and 40 feet away you get 10 feet DOF. So about 40' away? Me: Also, it depends on what are the image that you are wanting it to turn out to be. 3- any tips to keep in mind if I come across a situation like this? Me: It's just like any other photo opportunities that present to you. You'll have to decide how the image will turn out to be. This picture of Adam's is pretty much his "view", yours might differ. But nevertheless, if you see such opportunity some day, just imitate this picture. Imitation to learn, and innovate to progress. Gotta try it, to learn it. Edit 4-- wouLd you use a tripod Me: I'd use a tripod for any shots if possible. But of course, it all boils down to the factors that are in my favor, accordingly to my decision on how the image will turn out. In this case, why not? Provided i have it then. If not, i'd just decide on a hand-holdable shutter speed "required". All in all, it boils down to how you'd like the image to turn out. Otherwise, i believe that you, as am i, are kind of captivated by this exquisite image and has set your mind thinking on how to produce it. What you'd be interested to know is actually on why he used the FL of 200m. As what russell and ANVH states, it has got to do with perspective effect. Usage of a long FL usually seems to be used mainly for "zooming in" to an intended subject, but it actually affects the background size, therefore perspective. That's why there are certain people who uses a long FL to shoot landscape and stitch, contrary to the normal concept of wide-angle lenses, to get everything in.

03-21-2013, 10:11 PM	#14
russell2pi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Victoria, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 252	Originally posted by SyncGuy Usage of a long FL usually seems to be used mainly for "zooming in" to an intended subject, but it actually affects the background size, therefore perspective. That's why there are certain people who uses a long FL to shoot landscape and stitch, contrary to the normal concept of wide-angle lenses, to get everything in. Well ... yes and no .. unless you move the camera location, stitching won't alter the perspective at all. And the image look just the same (apart from factors like resolution, DOF etc) compared to a wide angle lens with a field of view equivalent to what you are stitching up to. (Likewise, cropping or zooming with a zoom lens doesn't alter perspective.) The perspective is completely determined by the location of the camera. Put your eye where the camera is and you will see the same perspective with your eye. The FL of the lens doesn't change that. A wide angle will record a larger field of view and a long lens a smaller field of view but the alignments and apparent sizes of objects in the scene can't be altered unless you move the camera. Think about it - if it did, one object may obscure another with one lens, but not with another. How's that possible? Either one object is behind the other from that point of view, or it's not.

03-22-2013, 12:06 AM	#15
SyncGuy Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 821	Originally posted by russell2pi Well ... yes and no .. unless you move the camera location, stitching won't alter the perspective at all. And the image look just the same (apart from factors like resolution, DOF etc) compared to a wide angle lens with a field of view equivalent to what you are stitching up to. (Likewise, cropping or zooming with a zoom lens doesn't alter perspective.) The perspective is completely determined by the location of the camera. Put your eye where the camera is and you will see the same perspective with your eye. The FL of the lens doesn't change that. A wide angle will record a larger field of view and a long lens a smaller field of view but the alignments and apparent sizes of objects in the scene can't be altered unless you move the camera. Think about it - if it did, one object may obscure another with one lens, but not with another. How's that possible? Either one object is behind the other from that point of view, or it's not. LoL... Don't mind me.. I had to read and re-read a few times and imagining in my head on what you had mentioned. Well, i get what you mean... But i guess, "yes and no", we can kinda know what is being touched on here.. Nevertheless, it's good clarification and info for potential confused others. ;P Thank you!