Harsh Red Light at Concerts = less detail

**rzarector** · 08-05-2013, 12:05 PM

Hello all,

I have begun shooting concerts more and more and the most common issue I seem to get is really really bright RED lights that seem to wash out all detail. If I go black and white I get some of it back but more and more just wash out.

Granted most of the time I shoot in RAW and white balance after the fact but I seem to lose so much detail. What am I doing wrong? I am in Manual or aperture priority mostly.

Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated.

PS I know the examples suck, but at work I dont have much to share that have the red that I am speaking of. But these two do. Mainly on Tim, the guitar player to the right.

Attached Images

**rzarector** · 08-05-2013, 12:05 PM

Forgot to mention I use spot metering primarily.

**jatrax** · 08-05-2013, 12:15 PM

Caused by the LED lights possibly. This might help: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/93809-modern-led-s...-problems.html

JinDesu · 08-05-2013, 12:26 PM

LED lights are very difficult lights to work with when using a DSLR. The lights emit a very narrow spectrum of wavelengths, but at very high intensity. This is different from incandescent and fluorescent lights, which emit a wider spectrum of wavelengths to "combine" into the correct colour. So where normal red lights still provide a little yellow/green/blue to be extracted, LED red lights are almost pure red and you can't pull out the yellow/green/blue you need to make it look normal.

I don't know any workarounds, besides extensive post processing adding in colour where it does not exist - or using flash - or taking a lot of pictures to get the ones where the LEDs are off (assuming it's like a strobe).

atupdate · 08-05-2013, 12:29 PM

You might try under exposing a bit to keep the detail. I shot these about -1.5 and used a little noise removal to fix the backgrounds when I boosted the dark areas and corrected the white balance in post processing.

Tim

Meatwipe · 08-05-2013, 12:36 PM

When i shoot concerts i'm always in Manual mode. I think it's by far the best...
I just choose the largest aperture that i'm happy with, the larger the better so as large as i feel i can go for.
Then i choose a very high iso setting (not too high)! but i do keep in mind that noise in low light situations will always look sooooo much better than blurry photos.
After that i determine a shutterspeed judging from what my lightmeter kind of suggest, take a couple of test shots and check my images until i'm at where i want to be.
Then i'm all set! no need to add exposure compensation if i get more people in the shot messing up what the computer think's the right expsure, no need to take different spot readings, i'm just ready to shoot away all night and think about nothing else than what's going on on the stage! (i might do some adjustments depending on the show). sometimes you'll notice it gets brighter then add some shutterspeed to take away a stop of light or so (you'll get the hang of it).
And i always choose a white balance setting instead of using auto. sure you can change it in post processing but it's hard to preview pictures at the show when some of the pictures have an off white balance.
I would recommend this too you because from what i can see you need to raise your iso, and maybe underexpose just a little.
Not having to keep on spot metering would give you more time and mind to think about what's happening on stage instead of what your settings are.
tip, if you know the people on stage or if it's your job to take pictures of the concert, you can always ask the lighting guy (nicely! and just once)! if it's possible for him to use a little more front lights :P
good luck.

And yeah, LED lights don't really have a large spectrum of colours, i like to think of it like they just shoot out one colour, the one they are suppose to, a normal incandescent light shoots out a wider spectrum of colors and gives more depth for a sensor to record.

**newmikey** · 08-05-2013, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by rzarector

Granted most of the time I shoot in RAW and white balance after the fact but I seem to lose so much detail. What am I doing wrong? I am in Manual or aperture priority mostly.

Much depends on the quality of your raw conversion and the skills applied. What software do you use?

Both images also look like they suffer from the shakes due to low shutterspeeds and are badly out of focus too. What exposure program dis you use and what metering mode? Can you post the exif data so we can have some better info?

**rzarector** · 08-05-2013, 12:45 PM

How does one post EXIF data? Yeah I know the images suck, but those color examples are the only ones I have at work.

I found taking saturation down helped a lot with the red, to bring back color. Thanks to the post referring me to the much longer LED light one. Learned a lot! Big thanks!

**rzarector** · 08-05-2013, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Meatwipe

When i shoot concerts i'm always in Manual mode. I think it's by far the best...
I just choose the largest aperture that i'm happy with, the larger the better so as large as i feel i can go for.
Then i choose a very high iso setting (not too high)! but i do keep in mind that noise in low light situations will always look sooooo much better than blurry photos.
After that i determine a shutterspeed judging from what my lightmeter kind of suggest, take a couple of test shots and check my images until i'm at where i want to be.
Then i'm all set! no need to add exposure compensation if i get more people in the shot messing up what the computer think's the right expsure, no need to take different spot readings, i'm just ready to shoot away all night and think about nothing else than what's going on on the stage! (i might do some adjustments depending on the show). sometimes you'll notice it gets brighter then add some shutterspeed to take away a stop of light or so (you'll get the hang of it).
And i always choose a white balance setting instead of using auto. sure you can change it in post processing but it's hard to preview pictures at the show when some of the pictures have an off white balance.
I would recommend this too you because from what i can see you need to raise your iso, and maybe underexpose just a little.
Not having to keep on spot metering would give you more time and mind to think about what's happening on stage instead of what your settings are.
tip, if you know the people on stage or if it's your job to take pictures of the concert, you can always ask the lighting guy (nicely! and just once)! if it's possible for him to use a little more front lights :P
good luck.

And yeah, LED lights don't really have a large spectrum of colours, i like to think of it like they just shoot out one colour, the one they are suppose to, a normal incandescent light shoots out a wider spectrum of colors and gives more depth for a sensor to record.

What WB do you typically set to with a strong red light scheme?

**rzarector** · 08-05-2013, 12:47 PM

Ill also post better examples tonight. The led light lead really answered a lot of my questions but Ill post the better examples up here later tonight.

thanks everyone!

Gian Carlo · 08-05-2013, 01:56 PM

Which camera did you use? I recently switched from K-5 to K-5IIs and noticed a big improvement on shots with red lights:

Kendigitize · 08-05-2013, 02:00 PM - **1 Like**

I don't know if it applies in your situation, but I would take photos at Disneyland in the Pirates of the Caribian, and have the same problem. Everything was too red. I ended up messing with the white balance setting it to "Tungstin" and the colors were much more balanced. I use a 50mm f1.4 and my settings are 1/100, F2, iso6400, exp +3

Anvh · 08-05-2013, 02:31 PM

Ontop of the pixels in the sensor there is a colour pattern of Red, green and blue because of that pixel density is different per colour.
White light for example will use most if not all of the pixels but red light will primarely use red pixels and blue the blue ones.
per set so to say there are 4 pixels, 1 is red, 2 are green and 1 is blue, so with only red or blue light you will only use about 1/4th of the pixels.

This is not fully the problem though but it would be a part of it.

atupdate · 08-05-2013, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Kendigitize

I don't know if it applies in your situation, but I would take photos at Disneyland in the Pirates of the Caribian, and have the same problem. Everything was too red. I ended up messing with the white balance setting it to "Tungstin" and the colors were much more balanced. I use a 50mm f1.4 and my settings are 1/100, F2, iso6400, exp +3

The theater shots I posted were also Tungsten lights. Most of my white balance work was converting from my auto white balance to tungsten.

Tim

**JimJohnson** · 08-06-2013, 06:00 AM

It isn't concert light, but I am noticing that when I do close focus photography of red flowers (predominate image color is red) in full daylight, that the red will often over saturate my RAW images with a loss of detail (K-30, DNG, Adobe color). Given that we are talking RAW, I can't drop the red channel sensitivity in camera like I can with jpeg - - - or can I? I find myself taking extra time in PP to desaturate just the red channel, and frankly I am not recovering all the lost detail. By the way, the key here is 'full daylight'. If I can soften the light at the scene, The problem essentially goes away.

08-05-2013, 12:05 PM	#1
rzarector Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: San Francisco Posts: 161	Harsh Red Light at Concerts = less detail Hello all, I have begun shooting concerts more and more and the most common issue I seem to get is really really bright RED lights that seem to wash out all detail. If I go black and white I get some of it back but more and more just wash out. Granted most of the time I shoot in RAW and white balance after the fact but I seem to lose so much detail. What am I doing wrong? I am in Manual or aperture priority mostly. Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated. PS I know the examples suck, but at work I dont have much to share that have the red that I am speaking of. But these two do. Mainly on Tim, the guitar player to the right. Attached Images

08-05-2013, 12:29 PM	#5
atupdate Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dayton, OH Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,724	You might try under exposing a bit to keep the detail. I shot these about -1.5 and used a little noise removal to fix the backgrounds when I boosted the dark areas and corrected the white balance in post processing. Tim Last edited by atupdate; 08-05-2013 at 04:28 PM.

08-05-2013, 12:36 PM	#6
Meatwipe New Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Småland Posts: 8	When i shoot concerts i'm always in Manual mode. I think it's by far the best... I just choose the largest aperture that i'm happy with, the larger the better so as large as i feel i can go for. Then i choose a very high iso setting (not too high)! but i do keep in mind that noise in low light situations will always look sooooo much better than blurry photos. After that i determine a shutterspeed judging from what my lightmeter kind of suggest, take a couple of test shots and check my images until i'm at where i want to be. Then i'm all set! no need to add exposure compensation if i get more people in the shot messing up what the computer think's the right expsure, no need to take different spot readings, i'm just ready to shoot away all night and think about nothing else than what's going on on the stage! (i might do some adjustments depending on the show). sometimes you'll notice it gets brighter then add some shutterspeed to take away a stop of light or so (you'll get the hang of it). And i always choose a white balance setting instead of using auto. sure you can change it in post processing but it's hard to preview pictures at the show when some of the pictures have an off white balance. I would recommend this too you because from what i can see you need to raise your iso, and maybe underexpose just a little. Not having to keep on spot metering would give you more time and mind to think about what's happening on stage instead of what your settings are. tip, if you know the people on stage or if it's your job to take pictures of the concert, you can always ask the lighting guy (nicely! and just once)! if it's possible for him to use a little more front lights :P good luck. And yeah, LED lights don't really have a large spectrum of colours, i like to think of it like they just shoot out one colour, the one they are suppose to, a normal incandescent light shoots out a wider spectrum of colors and gives more depth for a sensor to record. Last edited by Meatwipe; 08-05-2013 at 12:41 PM. Reason: wanted to add my thoughts on led lights

08-05-2013, 01:56 PM	#11
Gian Carlo Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 25	Which camera did you use? I recently switched from K-5 to K-5IIs and noticed a big improvement on shots with red lights: Last edited by Gian Carlo; 08-05-2013 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Image change

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08-05-2013, 12:15 PM	#3
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Caused by the LED lights possibly. This might help: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/93809-modern-led-s...-problems.html

08-05-2013, 12:26 PM	#4
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	LED lights are very difficult lights to work with when using a DSLR. The lights emit a very narrow spectrum of wavelengths, but at very high intensity. This is different from incandescent and fluorescent lights, which emit a wider spectrum of wavelengths to "combine" into the correct colour. So where normal red lights still provide a little yellow/green/blue to be extracted, LED red lights are almost pure red and you can't pull out the yellow/green/blue you need to make it look normal. I don't know any workarounds, besides extensive post processing adding in colour where it does not exist - or using flash - or taking a lot of pictures to get the ones where the LEDs are off (assuming it's like a strobe).

08-05-2013, 12:42 PM	#7
newmikey Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,287	Originally posted by rzarector Granted most of the time I shoot in RAW and white balance after the fact but I seem to lose so much detail. What am I doing wrong? I am in Manual or aperture priority mostly. Much depends on the quality of your raw conversion and the skills applied. What software do you use? Both images also look like they suffer from the shakes due to low shutterspeeds and are badly out of focus too. What exposure program dis you use and what metering mode? Can you post the exif data so we can have some better info?

08-05-2013, 12:45 PM	#8
rzarector Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: San Francisco Posts: 161 Original Poster	How does one post EXIF data? Yeah I know the images suck, but those color examples are the only ones I have at work. I found taking saturation down helped a lot with the red, to bring back color. Thanks to the post referring me to the much longer LED light one. Learned a lot! Big thanks!

08-05-2013, 12:45 PM	#9
rzarector Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: San Francisco Posts: 161 Original Poster	Originally posted by Meatwipe When i shoot concerts i'm always in Manual mode. I think it's by far the best... I just choose the largest aperture that i'm happy with, the larger the better so as large as i feel i can go for. Then i choose a very high iso setting (not too high)! but i do keep in mind that noise in low light situations will always look sooooo much better than blurry photos. After that i determine a shutterspeed judging from what my lightmeter kind of suggest, take a couple of test shots and check my images until i'm at where i want to be. Then i'm all set! no need to add exposure compensation if i get more people in the shot messing up what the computer think's the right expsure, no need to take different spot readings, i'm just ready to shoot away all night and think about nothing else than what's going on on the stage! (i might do some adjustments depending on the show). sometimes you'll notice it gets brighter then add some shutterspeed to take away a stop of light or so (you'll get the hang of it). And i always choose a white balance setting instead of using auto. sure you can change it in post processing but it's hard to preview pictures at the show when some of the pictures have an off white balance. I would recommend this too you because from what i can see you need to raise your iso, and maybe underexpose just a little. Not having to keep on spot metering would give you more time and mind to think about what's happening on stage instead of what your settings are. tip, if you know the people on stage or if it's your job to take pictures of the concert, you can always ask the lighting guy (nicely! and just once)! if it's possible for him to use a little more front lights :P good luck. And yeah, LED lights don't really have a large spectrum of colours, i like to think of it like they just shoot out one colour, the one they are suppose to, a normal incandescent light shoots out a wider spectrum of colors and gives more depth for a sensor to record. What WB do you typically set to with a strong red light scheme?

08-05-2013, 12:47 PM	#10
rzarector Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: San Francisco Posts: 161 Original Poster	Ill also post better examples tonight. The led light lead really answered a lot of my questions but Ill post the better examples up here later tonight. thanks everyone!

08-05-2013, 02:00 PM - 1 Like	#12
Kendigitize Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 324	I don't know if it applies in your situation, but I would take photos at Disneyland in the Pirates of the Caribian, and have the same problem. Everything was too red. I ended up messing with the white balance setting it to "Tungstin" and the colors were much more balanced. I use a 50mm f1.4 and my settings are 1/100, F2, iso6400, exp +3

08-05-2013, 02:31 PM	#13
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Ontop of the pixels in the sensor there is a colour pattern of Red, green and blue because of that pixel density is different per colour. White light for example will use most if not all of the pixels but red light will primarely use red pixels and blue the blue ones. per set so to say there are 4 pixels, 1 is red, 2 are green and 1 is blue, so with only red or blue light you will only use about 1/4th of the pixels. This is not fully the problem though but it would be a part of it.

08-05-2013, 04:31 PM	#14
atupdate Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dayton, OH Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,724	Originally posted by Kendigitize I don't know if it applies in your situation, but I would take photos at Disneyland in the Pirates of the Caribian, and have the same problem. Everything was too red. I ended up messing with the white balance setting it to "Tungstin" and the colors were much more balanced. I use a 50mm f1.4 and my settings are 1/100, F2, iso6400, exp +3 The theater shots I posted were also Tungsten lights. Most of my white balance work was converting from my auto white balance to tungsten. Tim

08-06-2013, 06:00 AM	#15
JimJohnson Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Summer:Lake Superior - Michigan Winter:Texas Hill Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,772	It isn't concert light, but I am noticing that when I do close focus photography of red flowers (predominate image color is red) in full daylight, that the red will often over saturate my RAW images with a loss of detail (K-30, DNG, Adobe color). Given that we are talking RAW, I can't drop the red channel sensitivity in camera like I can with jpeg - - - or can I? I find myself taking extra time in PP to desaturate just the red channel, and frankly I am not recovering all the lost detail. By the way, the key here is 'full daylight'. If I can soften the light at the scene, The problem essentially goes away.