[fwcetus]

One disclaimer: My lenses are all constant aperture zooms, f 2.8 or f4. If all I had was variable aperture lenses ( never owned a kit lens), this would be a lot harder. I'd assume the max aperture, like a kit lens that's 3.5 to 5.6.

I do think its a mistake for people to buy into "beginner gear". I think two wheels, an ISO button and a histogram with a constant aperture lens offers a better chance at a good result than Auto modes oe EV compensation. Meters get fooled all the time.

I agree about using (as much as possible) constant aperture zooms.

However, I think that you are being unrealistic about it being "a mistake for people to buy into 'beginner gear'." You really cannot expect the cam companies to sell very much camera gear, especially nowadays in this era of ubiquitous automated cell phone cameras, if noobs are going to have to perform a series of mental steps just to get somewhat useful results from expensive photo gear.

Meters may get often fooled, and require experienced judgment to use correctly, but "sunny 16" doesn't work under all conditions without additional experienced judgment, either. I think requiring everyone using a camera to be a purist is unrealistic.

There's some stuff you need to buy, some stuff you need to learn and the rest is practice and experience. Okay, the learning never stops.

This seems quite true, but the learning curve can be too steep for casual beginners to get much beyond being beginners without some help from "beginner gear".

I agree about using (as much as possible) constant aperture zooms.

However, I think that you are being unrealistic about it being "a mistake for people to buy into 'beginner gear'." You really cannot expect the cam companies to sell very much camera gear, especially nowadays in this era of ubiquitous automated cell phone cameras, if noobs are going to have to perform a series of mental steps just to get somewhat useful results from expensive photo gear.

Meters may get often fooled, and require experienced judgment to use correctly, but "sunny 16" doesn't work under all conditions without additional experienced judgment, either. I think requiring everyone using a camera to be a purist is unrealistic.




This seems quite true, but the learning curve can be too steep for casual beginners to get much beyond being beginners without some help from "beginner gear".

My opinion and it's merely that, was to be honest, not realistic or concerned about camera mfr's sales figures or conventional wisdom. Showing my advaced age, I compare the expectations that gear transcending learning and practice is like my delight as an 8 year old when I discovered my Uncle's player piano. I was instantly an accomplished pianist, as long as I kept pumping the pedals. I was way better than any of my practices on a fluteophone where my Mother had, mercifully for her, banished me to the garage.

[fwcetus]

My opinion and it's merely that, was to be honest, not realistic or concerned about camera mfr's sales figures or conventional wisdom. Showing my advaced age, I compare the expectations that gear transcending learning and practice is like my delight as an 8 year old when I discovered my Uncle's player piano. I was instantly an accomplished pianist, as long as I kept pumping the pedals. I was way better than any of my practices on a fluteophone where my Mother had, mercifully for her, banished me to the garage.

Understood, fluteophone and all. (When I was an elementary school kid, my school system employed the similar "tonette" as a weapon of parental punishment.)

[yozza]

As this thread is focused on getting perfect focus each time, i'd like to know what settings any of you use to shoot group shots of 2-3 people, and to get all eyes on focus, preferably on the k1 if you have it. I just posted a thread on this though this seems more relevant. afs mode and auto 9, which can kind of be hit or miss, or something else?

[UncleVanya]

As this thread is focused on getting perfect focus each time, i'd like to know what settings any of you use to shoot group shots of 2-3 people, and to get all eyes on focus, preferably on the k1 if you have it. I just posted a thread on this though this seems more relevant. afs mode and auto 9, which can kind of be hit or miss, or something else?

TO me this just seems like a depth of field question. PIck a place - focus there (center point works with recomposition for me on my K-3) and set DOF high enough to get all the eyes in focus.

[Kath]

TO me this just seems like a depth of field question. PIck a place - focus there (center point works with recomposition for me on my K-3) and set DOF high enough to get all the eyes in focus.

Yes, most certainly. The only reason eyes wouldn't be in focus is if the DOF isn't deep enough to capture all the planes front to back. So, you can focus on the front pair of eyes and then use an aperture that will ensure your focus (DOF) will extend all the way to the back pair.

[Kath]

So afs isnt needed anymore, if this is the case it seems?

Yes, that's right. one of the great advantages to using BBF is that the AF button becomes a toggle between AF-S and AF-C. Hold the AF button and move the camera around at will to use AF-C. Or push once and recompose, locking the focus on your original target, which is AF-S mode. That's why you leave the select button on C, or move it to M if you're going to manual focus. It's a great system.

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[fwcetus]

So afs isnt needed anymore, if this is the case it seems?

Yes, that's right. one of the great advantages to using BBF is that the AF button becomes a toggle between AF-S and AF-C. Hold the AF button and move the camera around at will to use AF-C. Or push once and recompose, locking the focus on your original target, which is AF-S mode. That's why you leave the select button on C, or move it to M if you're going to manual focus. It's a great system.

And that, my friends, is a nice concise description of one of the main advantages of back button focusing.

[Racer X 69]

Every photograph is, in some fashion, concept, capture, edit and presentation. Each matter.

Very well said.

[UncleVanya]

I haven't become a convert of back button auto focus. My major annoyance is the physical placement of the af button on my k-3. It feels awkward to shift my thumb up that high.

[fwcetus]

I haven't become a convert of back button auto focus. My major annoyance is the physical placement of the af button on my k-3. It feels awkward to shift my thumb up that high.

Hmmm... -- that's interesting -- for me, the location of the button is ~perfect~ on the K-3. [It wasn't as nice on the K20D (as I recall).]

[UncleVanya]

It may be because I never have used my thumb for auto focus. I use it to hold the camera. I'm not used to not having the pad of my thumb gripping the camera.

This goes back to my first film cameras btw. It may just be a hard habit to break.

[noelpolar]

And that, my friends, is a nice concise description of one of the main advantages of back button focusing.

I'm still in two minds about using AFC in this way when critical single point autofocus is required..... I'd normally go for AFS.... especially if focus hold is off or on low.... think focussing on an eye ..... sometimes by the time I've lifted my thumb the camera has tried to focus again from the last lock it indicated....hello nose!

[fwcetus]

I'm still in two minds about using AFC in this way when critical single point autofocus is required..... I'd normally go for AFS.... especially if focus hold is off or on low.... think focussing on an eye ..... sometimes by the time I've lifted my thumb the camera has tried to focus again from the last lock it indicated....hello nose!

Understood. And I guess, I might tend to agree with you for the most critical focusing situations (when I'd sometimes be using a tripod anyway).

However, even for most of my macro shooting (whether looking through the OVF or using the LED display), I still use BBF. [Heck, I even use BBF sometimes for test shots when using an MF lens, before switching over to manually focusing using the KatzEye split screen for the "finishing shot".] Perhaps this is because I don't actually lift my thumb off of the K-3 grip until I let go of the body to let the strap suspend it or to put it down.

So, when you say "I've lifted my thumb", that kind of surprised me a bit. You see, when I am holding the K-3 for BBF, my thumb is in firm contact with the edge of the raised back grip area the entire time -- the "fingerprint pad" is resting lightly on the AF button area, while the first (i.e., the most distal) thumb joint is firmly pressing down on the grip area. Pressing the AF button requires just a little more force from the "fingerprint pad", but doing so does not significantly change the firm support from that first thumb joint (at least not perceptibly).

I should point out that my hands are a little larger than average, but not especially large in size, and my fingers are arthritic. (Yeah -- my advice for everyone is not to get old -- you're welcome.)

And, I do sympathize with those that find their first attempts at BBF to be awkward -- I can remember going through a lot of somewhat awkward focusing "maneuvers" before the action gradually became quite natural for me.

YMMV, of course.

[noelpolar]

Understood. And I guess, I might tend to agree with you for the most critical focusing situations (when I'd sometimes be using a tripod anyway).

However, even for most of my macro shooting (whether looking through the OVF or using the LED display), I still use BBF. [Heck, I even use BBF sometimes for test shots when using an MF lens, before switching over to manually focusing using the KatzEye split screen for the "finishing shot".] Perhaps this is because I don't actually lift my thumb off of the K-3 grip until I let go of the body to let the strap suspend it or to put it down.

So, when you say "I've lifted my thumb", that kind of surprised me a bit. You see, when I am holding the K-3 for BBF, my thumb is in firm contact with the edge of the raised back grip area the entire time -- the "fingerprint pad" is resting lightly on the AF button area, while the first (i.e., the most distal) thumb joint is firmly pressing down on the grip area. Pressing the AF button requires just a little more force from the "fingerprint pad", but doing so does not significantly change the firm support from that first thumb joint (at least not perceptibly).

I should point out that my hands are a little larger than average, but not especially large in size, and my fingers are arthritic. (Yeah -- my advice for everyone is not to get old -- you're welcome.)

And, I do sympathize with those that find their first attempts at BBF to be awkward -- I can remember going through a lot of somewhat awkward focusing "maneuvers" before the action gradually became quite natural for me.

YMMV, of course.

Lifted my thumb was just a term I used for released presure on the AF button...... I always use Rear AF for focus..... just sometimes select AFS to stop any focus shift as described.