[interested_observer]

I have to travel next week again. It appears that I will have Friday morning - until about 1pm perhaps 1.30 free on my way to the airport. So, I should have about 3 hours or so to shoot. There is an Antique Car Museum loaded with Model Ts, As, Cs, Ns, etc., along with Dodges, Hudsons, Cadillacs and just about any other old car make available. A lot of them are restored, however some are in barn find conditions. The added plus is that the building is over 100 years old, old glass windows, rough finished brick and old wooden floors. So the overall feeling and especially the light is essentially "old" - early 19th century factory. In fact, 99% of the light is from the exterior windows. I am just going with the ambient lighting - no flash. A good part of this is that I want to capture the cars in their "old" environment. I want to shoot the light that is present - what ever it may be (bright and sunny or overcast). The interior architectural opportunities of just the building is target rich. Its almost shoot the building with the cars as a bonus or shoot the cars with the building's architecture as a bonus. This is effectively a can't loose opportunity.

I have been there before, but only had my Panasonic LX3 with me and took about 200 shots - all at a 135 equivalent of 24mm. This was ok, it worked out most of the time in terms of composing and framing. The photos turned out very good - but I know I can do better. I am expecting a lot better out of myself. All the cars have a window or two in the background, that will essentially be blown out. Bracketing with a tripod is a must.

So here is my thinking - K5, shoot everything at ISO 80, up on a set of legs. On the lenses - 24mm (35mm equivalent) shot previously equates to about 16mm APS-C. That essentially narrows my lens selection down to the Sigma 8-16 and the DA 12-24. I am also thinking that I'll take my Voigtlander 20/f3.2 along too. Its small, light and compact. I think that there are a number of "narrower" shots that it would work out well, especially with it being a prime.

The cars are about 10-15 feet apart, and a Model T is about 10-12 feet long. At 20mm at 10' gives a 12' FoV, while at 15' provides an 18' FoV. This tells me I will be either at the top end of the 8-16 or mid range with the 12-24 lens. Best / sharpest aperture for the 8-16 at the upper end is f8, while mid range on the 12-24 is f5.6. I really do not need a fast aperture while up on a tripod bracketing, but I want sharpness and an excellent depth of field.

A few questions -

• Bracketing - I usually shoot 5 frames +/-2ev. The light is going to be harsh. Is there any reason to consider 3 frames? The shutter times will be pretty short for me (at night I am usually 10 seconds and above). A half second is lighting fast for me. I anticipate that everything will be at 1/100sec or so. At 3 frames I can only go +/- 2ev, while at 5 frames I can capture +/- 4ev. The 5 frame bracket I believe provides the best opportunity for the best quality available. The additional time for the 2 frames is nothing. I want to capture as much dynamic range as possible.
• EV Bias - I usually never bias, but I am thinking that this may be the opportunity to effectively use this. Should I over expose or under expose for best results? I'm thinking that I should shift probably -1 ev down. Is my thinking flawed?
• CPF - I do have a circular polarizing filter for the 12-24. I quickly went through the shots from a year or so ago, and I really did not have any reflections that I needed to deal with. Regardless of where the sun is, I will be mostly shooting into a window (backlighting). Thinking about tossing it in the bag - just in case. I am also thinking that it might help with the colors of both the cars and the floors / walls and roof. There will be a lot of reflected light.
• Another Lens - I usually haul too many lenses. I really want to cut back this time. The 31 Ltd, and I also have the Zeiss 25 ZK. The Contax Zeiss 28 is just as sharp as the 31, smaller, but all manual. Should I haul an additional lens that I probably will not use?
• Favorite Car Shot Positions - I really do not shoot a lot of cars - however, I am really excited about this opportunity. Any favorite positions? I want a number of shots that at beyond stunning. I want to come away with the best shots I have ever taken. I would like to print and frame at least one or two of these at 20"x30". On a scale of 1 to 10, I want to shoot a couple of 15's - but will be very satisfied with some 12's. There is not a single reason why I can't, other than my own stupidity - or rushing, or whatever (shooting myself in the foot). I have gone out and googled car photography (car shows, etc.) to see what has been written. Also, gone out and looked at pictures to get some additional ideas.

On the downside - they do not allow commercial photography. I am somewhat afraid that with a tripod/ballhead, K5, L Bracket, remote shutter release and several lenses, I might just be thrown out.

My Dad would have just lived in this place (he passed away 14 years ago). He had a number of these cars. My Mom took a look at the LX3 shots, and exclaimed that when growing up, her Dad had a car exactly like that - pointing to one of the pictures.

Next week will be absolutely the week from hell - even if everything goes perfectly well, it will be an absolutely draining week. This is doing something just for me.....

So, what do you all think? Anything that I am not considering?

[SpecialK]

First, ask if they allow tripods, which I doubt. I use the DA 15 for cars a lot, and sometimes the 21 or 30, but the 12-24 covers all the range you will need. The 20 would be good as well. Wider means closer, which keeps fewer people from walking through your shot.

[calsan]

For me, old cars = chrome.
Therefore you want a lens that does nice starbursts.

[rbefly]

Hello Interested Observer,
First off, you're putting way to much pressure on your self! Expecting to go into an situation with indoor low-light conditions, unknown (weather) window light, possibly/probably no tripods allowed, no flash and sticking to ISO 80, to come away with the shot of a lifetime?
You're setting yourself up to fail.
Be flexible, have fun, be reasonable and adjust to the conditions. Having a plan is all well and good, if it's realistic and takes the variables, especially those that are beyond your control, into account. I would not describe your plan in this way.
Also, you seem to be planning a bunch of the 'one-car' perfect angle shots. Do you really want 1,000 of those? What for? In hopes that one is a keeper?
Imagine a long hanger or barn-like building, ambient light streaming shafts of windowlight from here to infinity. A long row of cars, some lit by the sunlight, others in nearly-full shadow. Now, that, I'd bracket 2 stops either way, after finding somewhere to brace my camera.
But a 5-shot bracket for every car? After you chimp the first few for (either) sun or shade and adjust the EV, 3-shot bracketing will be more than enough.
Relax, take some 'establishing' shots of the groups or rows. As you said, the building atmosphere is as interesting as the cars themselves. Get that nailed down with solid, no-shake, bracketed exposures. Go up to ISO 400 or even 800 if you have to, a clean shot at 400 is infinitely better than a soft one at 80.
Take different angles, views, perspectives, don't force your plan onto the scene. Let the scene 'speak' to you, for lack of a better phrase.
Use all the tricks available to you, including lens selection, ISO range, framing, perspective and composition, f/stops (sometimes f/2.8 tells the story as well or better than hyper-focal), selective focusing, close-ups, detail shots, patterns, abstracts.
That would be my plan, YMMV.
Ron

[mattt]

Get close - at least for some shots.
Bring a fish eye. (goes with the have fun suggestion)
The voigt is in the range of the 12-24 - why bother?.
I do lots of cruise nights (admittedly different conditions but similar subject matter ) I always like to have a fast fifty with me.
5 shot 2 EV bracket is overkill IMO.

[jrpower10]

Just on the face of it, I doubt you'll get a tripod in. You might get a monopod, which would help brace shots. The 12-24 should be sufficient, although a fast prime might be a good 2nd lens. If you have a DA15mm you might consider that. As Ron stated, opportunities for starbursts, and the 15 seems to be really good in that regard (SMC version, not HD as I've read the rounded blades on the HD may have killed the starburst). I also like mattt's suggestion of a fisheye. They are a lot of fun. I took some car photos with the 10-17 fisheye and they came out great.

[lesmore49]

I use my Pentax 12-24 for vintage car photos mostly. It's a fine lens, very clear and the zoom allows you to make quick adjustments to get the photo you want....particularly useful among tightly parked cars.

A tripod might be a bit unwieldy....but would be better than hand held indoors. I would want to use at least F 8 for DOF.

Using a flash...coupled with the wider part of the 12-24 zoom....might not do well in terms of full picture coverage.

I like using lower ISO like 80-100 also for outdoor vintage car shots....but considering the photos are indoors (limited available lighting), F stops possibly F 8 to F 11 or so....shutter speeds and sharpness maybe a concern. As others have said a K-5 can still deliver good photos at 800 or so ISO and would give you more latitude with F stops, shutter speeds.

Using a tripod...400 ISO still pretty good with a K-5.

[lesmore49]

Just on the face of it, I doubt you'll get a tripod in. You might get a monopod, which would help brace shots. The 12-24 should be sufficient, although a fast prime might be a good 2nd lens. If you have a DA15mm you might consider that. As Ron stated, opportunities for starbursts, and the 15 seems to be really good in that regard (SMC version, not HD as I've read the rounded blades on the HD may have killed the starburst). I also like mattt's suggestion of a fisheye. They are a lot of fun. I took some car photos with the 10-17 fisheye and they came out great.

X 2 on using the 10-17. I use this lens too, for vintage car shots. But...and a big but...I almost invariably use only the 17 mm setting and am very careful to get the right angle I want.

For car shots and the 10-17 I try to avoid as much distortion as I can, through checking angles through the viewfinder before I click the shutter.

[interested_observer]

First of all - Thanks for all of the suggestions!!!

First, ask if they allow tripods, which I doubt. I use the DA 15 for cars a lot, and sometimes the 21 or 30, but the 12-24 covers all the range you will need. The 20 would be good as well. Wider means closer, which keeps fewer people from walking through your shot.

I just called them and - the answer is, Yes, just as long as I do not get in the way of a tour going through. ---- And, oh by the way, starting on next Friday (the day I was going to visit), they are ONLY open 11 am to 1pm, so only 2 hours to shoot. Thanks for the suggestion on calling them first! I would have shown up early and with a locked door - I would have been bummed out.

For me, old cars = chrome.
Therefore you want a lens that does nice starbursts.

Well, new cars have chrome, really old cars have brass. The thought about starbursts is interesting, however its not direct light, it's all indirect light, so regardless - I don't think that there will be any opportunities for glints off the metal, but I will look hard. That may be a nice touch.

Get close - at least for some shots.
Bring a fish eye. (goes with the have fun suggestion)
The voigt is in the range of the 12-24 - why bother?.
I do lots of cruise nights (admittedly different conditions but similar subject matter ) I always like to have a fast fifty with me.
5 shot 2 EV bracket is overkill IMO.

That is why I sort of floated the idea on the VC 20, as I was looking for opinions. For a couple of years I was really blown over by the 12-24's sharpness. And it is very sharp for its wide width. Long story - but the short of it is, I acquired a 31 Ltd and was comparing the two (I know not a fair comparison - I was stitching) but was just thunderstruck as to how much sharper the 31 is. Different types of lenses, and a different focal length range. The width actually reduces its sharpness to a degree - where the 31 benefits from being narrower. That is why I was thinking of bringing a prime, in order to really nail the sharpness. The 20mm for the width, or the 25 for the sharpness with some width, or the old Contax 28 that is wider than the 31 and is even sharper - but all manual. So, which one do you think would be the most effective in this particular situation - the 20, 25 or 28 - or the 31 for the AF?

Hello Interested Observer,
First off, you're putting way to much pressure on your self! Expecting to go into an situation with indoor low-light conditions, unknown (weather) window light, possibly/probably no tripods allowed, no flash and sticking to ISO 80, to come away with the shot of a lifetime?
You're setting yourself up to fail.
Be flexible, have fun, be reasonable and adjust to the conditions. Having a plan is all well and good, if it's realistic and takes the variables, especially those that are beyond your control, into account. I would not describe your plan in this way.
Also, you seem to be planning a bunch of the 'one-car' perfect angle shots. Do you really want 1,000 of those? What for? In hopes that one is a keeper?
.....
Ron

Morning Ron,

I do understand what you are saying. I really did not explain myself very well. I shot the USS Constitution in the evening, tide coming in, breeze through the rigging and with an extremely difficult direct sun angle straight into the lens. Then, in post processing I found lights in the rigging, pointing into the lens too. All a real challenge. This is inside, all static, be it with harsh indirect lighting - but, it occurred to me, that I have all the tools and most of the techniques down pretty well, and have been doing this in outdoors landscapes / cityscapes. But the POTENTIAL is there - the cars, the building's interior, the architecture - I should be able to rise to the occasion. I should actually be capable of nailing shots of at least a couple of these cars. 3 hours I was somewhat counting on. However, they are moving off of their summer hours - so I will just have to deal with 2 hours and be VERY happy for the opportunity.

I am putting together a shot plan, so that I will not just forget something obvious. I have pulled shots taken before, so as to remember to get them. The gallery shots, the bay shots, the grouping shots - where they have the cars pre-positioned. There are a couple that are nose on with the building's structure and windows, floors and ceiling - peeling paint and all, that I want to get it all together.

Actually, this has gotten me thinking about strategy. I can run up to the third floor, where they have a lot of the cars, but are lacking a lot of static displays that block the view of the walls. The tours start on the second floor, so I would only cross them once - some place in the middle, and the third floor would be more empty - and actually more of the whole package that I am looking for.

The idea about the weather - the lighting is going to be variable, but should me more than adequate for what I need to do. As you suggested, I'll just roll with the punches on this - as it is going to be what its going to be. The building is very long and narrow with windows on both sides, so that regardless of morning or afternoon - there will be adequate light to work. The actual worse time is noon with the sun overhead, but with the indirect lighting coming in - that is even really indirect light. I looked on my past photos and the date and time they were taken. I should be fine on this. If its too dark, my shutter just floats to a longer time.

Just on the face of it, I doubt you'll get a tripod in. You might get a monopod, which would help brace shots. The 12-24 should be sufficient, although a fast prime might be a good 2nd lens. If you have a DA15mm you might consider that. As Ron stated, opportunities for starbursts, and the 15 seems to be really good in that regard (SMC version, not HD as I've read the rounded blades on the HD may have killed the starburst). I also like mattt's suggestion of a fisheye. They are a lot of fun. I took some car photos with the 10-17 fisheye and they came out great.

Actually, I had discounted taking the 10-17 FE. Now, and this is one of the reasons why I posted, the idea / suggestion of the 10-17 especially at the 17 end, does sound appealing - for a number of reasons. Pulling in the building's architecture, floor, ceiling, exposed pipes and bricks, along with the window structures, with the cars being the focus point. The old cars have softer "straight" lines, and some curves on the fenders, so this may actually work quite well.

Well - back to my day off - first one off in quite a while.

[southlander]

If you get an overcast day, then the interior lighting will lower but at least even which is the critical bit. A car half in shadow/half lit by a window will be hard to balance exposure for. An overcast day will help a lot in that situation - if you had any choice in days - I'd be choosing an overcast (big soft-box in the sky) day if that option was available. In museums, I go for handheld at whatever ISO does the job (800, 1600, even 3200 in dull corners or where the curator has gone for a moody presentation effect or to preserve items against excessive light exposure). As others have notes, tripods may well be frowned up, and if you look like a pro, then they might even frown a bit harder. TAv mode might be useful - set the minimum shutter speed you can reliably handhold, a wide-ish aperture (to keep the shutter speed up and/or ISO down), and let the ISO float. I can get down to 1/15th with SR on moderately reliably - if I'm down at that speed I'll take 2-3 images of the same subject - generally least one will be acceptable - but prefer to be at least 1/30th and up. If you are in a factory with lots of skylights, then you will probably have plenty of light and won't need too high an ISO. If using sub-20mm lens, DOF will be pretty reasonable even at wider apertures which gives more capacity to deal with low lighting. Using a 15mm focal length as an example, F4 at 10 feet is already hyperfocal and will have in focus 5 feet to infinity, 17mm is 5 feet to 50 feet. Wouldn't think F8 and above will be needed for DOF for what you will be doing. Also, shoot in RAW and then you have all that DR of the K-5 to call on when you process the images later to tame highlights/bring up shadows. Regularly review your shots with the histogram to see if you need to use exposure compensation.

Edit: I just saw the post where you said a tripod was allowed, so most of what I have said about high ISO becomes irrelevant!!! I'd still use RAW to give the maximum DR though.

The link below is some stuff I took at the Australian War Memorial in January - lighting levels were really, really low - and yes, I realise they are planes, not cars! No exterior lighting at all and the curators went for mood in presenting the exhibits. This is put up as an example of difficult conditions - I'm sure you'll have much better than this by your description. Taken with a K-x and Tamron 17-50, mostly at F2.8 or F4. ISO mostly 1600, some 3200. Handheld with shutter speeds at the lower end of what I can achieve trying to control my breathing. Using shadows recovery in post processing was key - without that, this series would have been in trouble. RAW gave me that ability - JPEGs would have shown up all the compression blockiness. I recognise my images are not really publishing grade - I think pro grade shots in the Memorial would need pro lighting brought in - but ok for a bloke wandering about on his holidays. The noisy shots were ones under-exposed at 1600 ISO when the metering took its cues off the highlights where spotlights fell. Underexposure at high ISO is never good I realised afterwards. A K-5 would have been better with both superior high ISO performance and DR than the K-x.

The Australian War Memorial (Part 3 – Warbirds)

[audiobomber]

I'm subscribing to see your results. I find shooting cars is easy, getting interesting results is anything but. Best of luck with your shoot.

The "no pros" rule is a bit scary. Your setup could easily look like pro photography to a caretaker.

[audiobomber]

I can't see your photos Slip.

[slip]

I can't see your photos Slip.

I wonder why as both my computer and tablet show them

randy

[carrrlangas]

I'm subscribing to see your results. I find shooting cars is easy, getting interesting results is anything but. Best of luck with your shoot.

+1 on all of the above

[Vylen]

I wonder why as both my computer and tablet show them

randy

Seems like those are attachments from an old marketplace listing - yours perhaps? Consequently, no one else can see them.