[hj630]

Wow. Everyone in this forum is really helpful. Thanks for all the tips.

[mattb123]

I'm not convinced about the ND filter. Seems it would be more likely to produce flare, and it doesn't change the basic issue which is one of dynamic range. Since the shadows are dark and the sun and sky are bright, you need to try to find an exposure that will properly (ish) expose them both. I typically expose for the sky and then use fill light/shadows in LR to boost the dark foreground. I'll usually bracket a bit too. Having a DA15 helps, but isn't absolutely necessary.
My best (IMO) sunset photos don't include the actual sun because of the DR issue. Often 180 degrees from the sun is really nice and bathed in soft light.

This one worked ok, but the sun area is blown out (to be expected). The foreground was very dark but I brought it back up in post.



I prefer this kind of thing. This is looking away from a sunset. Much more manageable dynamic range.

[6BQ5]

How about a gradient filter of some sort then?

[Ash]

Matt's comment is pertinent, because DR is the main reason single (non-HDR) images look dull and lifeless. Something has to be exposed for, the bright sky, or the dark foreground, and one has to be sacrificed for the other. So Boris's suggestion for a grad ND filter is good, but those filters are not the best for all situations. Good for some with a clear demarcation of where the foreground meets the bright sky, but a lot of the time there is foreground matter in the top half of the image that gets blunted in exposure as a result of the filter. This may be able to be salvaged in PP, but either HDR or waiting for better lighting conditions (either sun hides behind a cloud to decrease contrast, or the sun lights up the foreground well enough not to cast any shadows on the important foreground matter) are options that can produce good results too. PP is a must in all of these situations, though. Rarely do great landscapes some straight out of the box.

[mattb123]

Yeah, ND Grad could be the answer but it depends on the shape of your horizon. I still haven't gotten around to getting a ND grad yet, but I shoot a lot of mountain scenes so I think it would be tough to make it work. Might be great at the ocean or the desert!

[waterfall]

I'm not convinced about the ND filter. Seems it would be more likely to produce flare, and it doesn't change the basic issue which is one of dynamic range. Since the shadows are dark and the sun and sky are bright, you need to try to find an exposure that will properly (ish) expose them both. I typically expose for the sky and then use fill light/shadows in LR to boost the dark foreground. I'll usually bracket a bit too. Having a DA15 helps, but isn't absolutely necessary.
My best (IMO) sunset photos don't include the actual sun because of the DR issue. Often 180 degrees from the sun is really nice and bathed in soft light.

This one worked ok, but the sun area is blown out (to be expected). The foreground was very dark but I brought it back up in post.



I prefer this kind of thing. This is looking away from a sunset. Much more manageable dynamic range.

Matt, Nice shots. I especially liked,your second one.

[mikeSF]

Those are great examples, Matt!

[DAZ]

I have ND and gradient ND filters and although they have there uses I have found that for things like sunset/rises that they are of limited use. I have found that I am more likely to lose the shot then get one using ND files. This is primarily because these events are much more dynamic then one would think. The light is always changing and there are events almost always happening. Using ND take time that you may not have.


Lenses are important but probably the least significant part of this process.


Technique I find is first. This because it will give the most for what follows. This is when you will have to set for things like color of the sky by setting a lower exposure with any shadows you want to keep. This is when the timing for what kind of light and anything dynamic in the frame is captured.


Next is the camera. This is where dynamic range is king. The K-5 is excellent here as I have found I can get (with some work) just about anything I want.


After camera is PP. This is primarily because of flaws in JPG converters. They are designed for average scenes and the curves they use don't take into account that you want different things brighter or dimer. In fact on the camera screen it will almost always look to dark.


Last is lenses. You still need good lenses but great lenses will only add a little and only after the ones above are about maxed out.


All of the next photos did not use ND filters. The way the would look to the eye are much different. They could look brighter as in you may not even think this looks like a sunset to much dimer as there is nothing here to photograph. All required some PP. For the most part I was able to get what I wanted as in how much color to how much shadow. It is vital as to when and what settings to use first.



DAZ58127 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8987711825/
Larger size: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7432/8987711825_925d6fa388_h.jpg




DAZ58109 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8987709203/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8404/8987709203_480e61e393_h.jpg




DAZ57320 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8287980627/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8352/8287980627_42ca9c21f4_h.jpg
This is actually a sun rise over Diamondhead.




DAZ57317 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8289039886/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8345/8289039886_703b15537c_h.jpg
These last 2 were taken about 30 seconds apart.




DAZ56415 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8021980587/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8176/8021980587_916342cc0c_h.jpg
For this I had to expose low to keep the color in the sky and pull up on the shadows in PP as hard as the K5 would let me. This is at about max DR.




DAZ56395 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8021968420/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8317/8021968420_d20c9f106b_h.jpg
Here I wanted the foreground and the sky more blue so the sun is blown out to white.





DAZ55596 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/7522421224/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7522421224_4c910f6080_h.jpg
Here I wanted color in the sky but foreground to give it context with the sun just a star.




DAZ55579 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/7522419010/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8434/7522419010_7488da93de_h.jpg
The camera is the sun and every thing is just a shadow.




DAZ52270
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/6218819487/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6226/6218819487_bf2f3d96b5_b.jpg
This one I dragged the shutter and use some flash fill from the pop up flash.




DAZ52165
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/6142672468/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6174/6142672468_3c6c32c68f_b.jpg
This one was a bit of a PITA and has probably the most PP. To get the building on the right and the color of the sky/water I had the PP them separately. Then I put the building on a layer behind the sky/water and cut the top layer away to get the building to come out the way I wanted it to look.




DAZ51373
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/5905982991/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6049/5905982991_de8940484f_b.jpg
You can use fast shutter speeds to stop action.




DAZ51064
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/5905928461/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6057/5905928461_7d9771924d_b.jpg
This was with a Sigma 8-16mm lens. Not all that flare resistant (but still pretty good) and you can't really use ND filters (or any filter) on this lens.


DAZ

[mikeSF]

great examples DAZ!

[mikeSF]

I do most of my shooting within 30 minutes of the sun being on the horizon (mostly sunrises), so I frequently deal with the challenge of exposing for the image. I first decide what I am showcasing: if the beautiful sky colors, then I don't mind underexposing the foreground and going with a silhouette approach in order to maintain sky saturation without blowing out too much.

single exposure


single exposure with intentionally overexposed sun



If the foreground is my main subject, then I will often do a 2 or 3-exposure bracket and then either manually blend sky with ground using layer masks, OR, I will do an HDR or a partial HDR.

manual blend of 2 exposures


partial HDR using 3-exposures


manual blend of 2-exposures


Like many, I used to hear the word HDR and gag because the only HDRs I seemed to recognize were those over baked grunge looking things using one of the preset settings. Now, I have a greater respect for the value of HDR and selective HDR for enhancing the image, and preserving some (not ALL) dynamic range.

these two examples are on the strong side for my taste but I still feel appropriate to retain detail and otherwise lost shadows/highlights:

full HDR (2-exposures)


full HDR under intense light (3-exposures)


When I want the sun to be present in the exposure, I count on a certain amount of overexposure, as it would be a little unnatural not to let the sun blow out at least a bit. If I am shooting before the sun breaks the horizon, I like to spot meter on the brightest part of the sky to prevent overexposure, and add 1.7 to 2 stops of +EV for the second shot in order to grab the foreground. This usually gets me where I want to be. If the DR is much beyond that, I may capture 3 bracketed exposures.

Though I recognize the value of ND grads in many situations and respect those who use them religiously, I personally find them less refined for my needs than I'd like. The example of the tree or mountain or bridge sticking up in the horizon that becomes blackened due to the filter is enough for me to avoid this look. They also introduce another possibility for contrast-reducing flare when aimed at the sun, and that is the primary reason I would be using them.

[waterfall]

I have ND and gradient ND filters and although they have there uses I have found that for things like sunset/rises that they are of limited use. I have found that I am more likely to lose the shot then get one using ND files. This is primarily because these events are much more dynamic then one would think. The light is always changing and there are events almost aways happening. Using ND take time that you may not have.


Lenses are important but probably the least significant part of this process.


Technique I find is first. This because it will give the most for what follows. This is when you will have to set for things like color of the sky by setting a lower exposer with any shadows you want to keep. This is when the timing for what kind of light and anything dynamic in the frame is captured.


Next is the camera. This is where dynamic range is king. The K-5 is excellent here as I have found I can get (with some work) just about anything I want.


After camera is PP. This is primarily because of flaws in JPG converters. They are designed for average scenes and the curves they use don't take into account that you want different things brighter or dimer. In fact on the camera screen it will almost always look to dark.


Last is lenses. You still need good lenses but great lenses will only add a little and only after the ones above are about maxed out.


All of the next photos did not use ND filters. The way the would look to the eye are much different. They could look brighter as in you may not even think this looks like a sunset to much dimer as there is nothing here to photograph. All required some PP. For the most part I was able to get what I wanted as in how much color to how much shadow. It is vital as to when and what settings to use first.



DAZ58127 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8987711825/
Larger size: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7432/8987711825_925d6fa388_h.jpg




DAZ58109 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8987709203/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8404/8987709203_480e61e393_h.jpg




DAZ57320 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8287980627/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8352/8287980627_42ca9c21f4_h.jpg
This is actually a sun rise over Diamondhead.




DAZ57317 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8289039886/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8345/8289039886_703b15537c_h.jpg
These last 2 were taken about 30 seconds apart.




DAZ56415 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8021980587/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8176/8021980587_916342cc0c_h.jpg
For this I had to expose low to keep the color in the sky and pull up on the shadows in PP as hard as the K5 would let me. This is at about max DR.




DAZ56395 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/8021968420/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8317/8021968420_d20c9f106b_h.jpg
Here I wanted the foreground and the sky more blue so the sun is blown out to white.





DAZ55596 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/7522421224/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7522421224_4c910f6080_h.jpg
Here I wanted color in the sky but foreground to give it context with the sun just a star.




DAZ55579 -1
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/7522419010/
Larger size: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8434/7522419010_7488da93de_h.jpg
The camera is the sun and every thing is just a shadow.




DAZ52270
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/6218819487/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6226/6218819487_bf2f3d96b5_b.jpg
This one I dragged the shutter and use some flash fill from the pop up flash.




DAZ52165
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/6142672468/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6174/6142672468_3c6c32c68f_b.jpg
This one was a bit of a PITA and has probably the most PP. To get the building on the right and the color of the sky/water I had the PP them separately. Then I put the building on a layer behind the sky/water and cut the top layer away to get the building to come out the way I wanted it to look.




DAZ51373
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/5905982991/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6049/5905982991_de8940484f_b.jpg
You can use fast shutter speeds to stop action.




DAZ51064
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dazt/5905928461/
Larger size: https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6057/5905928461_7d9771924d_b.jpg
This was with a Sigma 8-16mm lens. Not all that flare resistant (but still pretty good) and you can't really use ND filters (or any filter) on this lens.


DAZ

Nice set of images, DAZ.

[DAZ]

Thank you mikeSF and waterfall for the comments. The Golden hour and the transition to the blue hour are so much fun that it is almost addicting. At the very least habit forming!


DAZ

[dtmateojr]

I have seen professional landscape shots made with slide film and printed three meters wide. One of the things I have noticed is that amateurs are too concerned with blown highlights. Yes, blown highlights are not ideal but expecting them not to blow up in obvious situations is also very unrealistic. In fact highlights add to the mood of the image and are seldom distracting.

Take this one for example. The sun is now "bleeding" into the foreground trees.



Or even this one where it becomes the center of the image



If you try to tame the sun with heavy-handed HDR the image will look flat and lose dynamic range.

Let the highlights blow up if they have to.

[dtmateojr]

One of my favourite images from Ken Duncan

http://www.kenduncan.com/gallery/country-living/the-other-side-nsw-nx2594-detail

Blown up highlights? You bet.

[dtmateojr]

And here's a heavy-handed attempt by pro Peter Lik to tame the highlights and shadows. The shot looks like clown vomit

http://www.lik.com/thework/lakes-rivers-waterfalls/turningtime.html