best mode for fill flash

WMBP · 04-30-2008, 08:53 PM

With a K20D, what's the best mode - on the camera and/or on the flash - for fill flash? I'm going to be shooting portraits outdoors in the afternoon and I'm reconsidering my options.

What I've done in the past is keep the camera on P-TTL, put the K10D/K20D into either hyperprogram or aperture-priority mode, point the flash right at the subject, and dial the flash (Pentax 540FGZ) down about -0.5. This seems to work okay. But I'm worried that I'm missing something.

I think I've read that Nikon cameras have a fill flash mode. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but Pentax doesn't seem to have anything like that. Anybody know if Nikons really have such a feature?

I've been doing a lot of flash photography in the last year, but all of it has been indoors, and I've always used P-TTL. If I'm shooting outdoors in good afternoon light, would I be better off using A or even M mode on the flash?

Grateful for any tips.

Will

WMBP · 04-30-2008, 10:45 PM

Followup after a few more hours of practicing. Hard to do this right in the evening, but I think I've figured out a little more about stuff I didn't know before.

With the flash in Auto mode, it looks like I can't control the flash output. So forget Auto. And Manual mode on the flash has always seemed to be too much trouble and after playing with it tonight, I've not changed my opinion. I'm eager to hear from anybody who wants to tell me I'm wrong about this. But at the moment, I'm back to P-TTL.

But I'm thinking I should try high-speed sync. Have played with it before but never used it for a real shoot. I think I might do some test shooting tomorrow afternoon. I can put the camera into M (hypermanual) mode, set the shutter speed to, oh, 1/250th sec, and I bet that the fill flash might work pretty nicely.

Anyway want to tell me I'm on the right track? Wrong track? I should get a Nikon? :-)

Will

dkittle · 05-01-2008, 04:11 AM

I'd be interested in your findings, Will. I'm working at understanding the 540 better and trying out some things with it. I have an event (club banquet) to shoot on Friday and I think I'm going to do it using manual mode the whole night.

With the builtin flash I tried fill a few times. I used to put the camera in M mode, meter (with the green button), dial the flash down -1 or -1 1/2 and shoot. It seemed to work good, but my memory might be foggy...

Wethphotography · 05-01-2008, 05:46 AM

Will,
As you know, I have had my share of frustration with the AF 540 and K10D. However, for my last several weddings, I have put the camera on Manual mode when shooting inside. My typical settings are around 1/125 and f4-5.6. I set the flash to P-ttl and shoot away. I get much more consistent flash results. I bounce the flash at 90 degrees with the reflector card pulled up.
For outside shooting I have been using manual flash mode with some success and I prefer the control it gives me over the amount of fill light. I am again usually in manual mode on the K10d (around 1/180); I try for a camera meter reading of between -1 and -2 exposure. I then set the flash to 1/16 or 1/32 power depending on ISO and subject distance. My results are more predictable because I have greater control. I will try to email you some photos later today.

thazooo · 05-01-2008, 05:48 AM

I've just started using flash outdoors in daylight, mostly for it's stop action ability.
Shooting humming birds against a sunny back ground I used Av f5.6, Pttl with -1.0 compensation. This lit the area and kept the background about normal. I did this with my K10D and AF 360 flash, lens 70=210 set to 150mm, flash head zoomed to max. This varied a good bit when I changed position so I used the Histogram and compensated.
The next set in my learning curve will be high speed sync but that will be in over a week .

Here's a good site about Flash Photography, covers many situations.

planet neil - tangents flash photography techniques

egordon99 · 05-01-2008, 07:12 AM

Will - You can "trick" Auto mode on the flash to use FEC. Usually you match the ISO/f-stop between the flash and the body, BUT if you adjust one of them on the flash, the flash will compensate. For example, you are at f/2.8, ISO200 outside. Normally you'd set the flash to f/2.8, ISO200 as well. If you actually change the flash to f/4, ISO200, the flash will THINK it needs to output TWICE as much power (because it believes the body to be at f/4). So in essence you'll have FEC+1.

As for fill flash, I think keeping it at Av mode/P-TTL and adjust EC and FEC as needed is the best. EC for the ambient exposure, FEC for the flash/fill exposure. One thing to note is you most likely will need to set HSS on the flash since you most likely will be getting shutter speeds faster than 1/180s (which means you can't use Auto mode)

My 40D works more or less the same as the Pentax system. Nikon has a dedicated "fill" mode on the flash, but Canon and Pentax use Av mode for fill.

pentkon52 · 05-01-2008, 08:20 AM

I did a horse and owner portrait shoot last summer, and used a nice big shade tree on the property for the setting.
K10D in Hyp P mode, 360 on Hi Speed sync and set my TV to 1/250. I had to bounce around on the minus for the flash, but -1.0 was the norm. I did some straight on and some bounce, but i didi not write down any data. For the most part they were good, some obvious over flash, but you can't win em all eh,.

Dave

WMBP · 05-01-2008, 08:44 AM

Thanks to everybody who has responded and especially to egordon99, whose post contained exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Originally posted by egordon99

Will - You can "trick" Auto mode on the flash to use FEC. ...

Yeah, I stumbled on that last night while I was playing around with the flash. Setting the dials on the flash in auto mode, I realized that I could in fact lie to the flash about the camera's ISO and aperture, and a few tests showed that lying to the flash like this does cause the flash to output a different level of light. Not surprising, in retrospect, just something that I'd never thought about until last night, no doubt because I've shot thousands of client photos in P-TTL and zero actual photos in Auto. So I'm glad to have your corroboration about this, since I didn't do anything last night but play around, and I thought perhaps this idea was completely crazy. Still, I kind of wish that auto mode on the flash had an FEC control, so I could tell the truth about ISO and aperture, but still tell the flash to pull its punches.

Quote:

As for fill flash, I think keeping it at Av mode/P-TTL and adjust EC and FEC as needed is the best. EC for the ambient exposure, FEC for the flash/fill exposure.

OK, thanks. This is exactly what I've been doing, so you're response basically tells me that I have not been missing anything important.

I prefer to work in hypermanual (M) mode on the K10D/K20D rather than Av. Just what I'm used to, I guess. If I have to adjust the settings - say, the camera's initial metering overexposes the sky - I find it easier to think simply in terms of shutter speed and aperture, rather than thinking in terms of EV adjustments. Hmm. Put that way, it doesn't sound easier, does it? I guess it's that I really like to know at all times what the shutter speed is, rather than trusting the camera.

Quote:

One thing to note is you most likely will need to set HSS on the flash since you most likely will be getting shutter speeds faster than 1/180s (which means you can't use Auto mode)

Right, this is another thing I've got too little experience with and I'm going to be doing some practicing in the next two days before the gig starts.

I'm attaching two shots that illustrate the effects of high-speed sync. Both shots were taken in hypermanual mode on the K20D, iso 800, f/4. (Why iso 800? Because it's not actually as bright outside as it looks in these photos.) Anyway, the differences: the first (better) shot was taken in hypermanual (M) mode, shutter speed 1/640th sec, using high-speed sync on the flash; the other shot was taken in hyperprogram (P) mode, using the standard (leading-curtain) flash setting. The photos have been post-processed. I did this because that's what I'm interested in - the result, not the unprocessed capture. The better shot had a classic "good" histogram, no blown highlights; I was in fact able to bring up the exposure a little bit, before increasing contrast, reducing noise and sharpening. The other shot had badly blown highlights. I adjusted the "recovery" slider in Adobe Lightroom to 100 (fixes blown highlights to the extent possible). Results fairly obvious.

By the way, I'm not bothering to add a photo showing what could be done without the flash here. Using spot metering, at f/4 and iso 800, the cactus wants a shutter speed of 1/100th sec, while the window wants a shutter speed of 1/3000th sec! If I split the difference in favor of the cactus and set the shutter to 1/1000th sec, the cactus is still way underexposed and the window highlights are hopelessly blown. This simply is a tough exposure problem and fill-flash is really needed to make it work.

Quote:

My 40D works more or less the same as the Pentax system. Nikon has a dedicated "fill" mode on the flash, but Canon and Pentax use Av mode for fill.

Thanks for answering that. One of these days I'm going to win the Texas lottery, buy all these cameras and be able to sit at home all day and answer my own questions. ;-)

THanks again to everybody.

Will

WMBP · 05-01-2008, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by pentkon52

I did a horse and owner portrait shoot last summer, and used a nice big shade tree on the property for the setting.
K10D in Hyp P mode, 360 on Hi Speed sync and set my TV to 1/250. I had to bounce around on the minus for the flash, but -1.0 was the norm. I did some straight on and some bounce, but i didi not write down any data. For the most part they were good, some obvious over flash, but you can't win em all eh,.

Dave,

Like your pictures. I've done just a little photography of this sort - my second daughter is a life-long rider (what we call "English" over here, hunter/jumper). I'm attaching one shot for which I might have used flash, had I not been afraid that it would spook the horse. Came out okay, as it happens; I was content with the blown highlights here. But having done this little, I know how hard it is to get up there like you do and nail every (or nearly every) shot.

I think I'll be using M rather than Tv. Want to keep track of both aperture and shutter speed, aperture for depth of field, of course, and shutter speed in part because I've got it in my head from somewhere that high-speed sync doesn't work if the shutter is over 1/1000th sec. Doesn't say that in the operating manual for the 540FGZ but I read it somewhere. Anybody know if it's true? I ask because, if it's a nice sunny day here in Dallas, even at iso 100 I might be pushing 1/1000th sec if I keep the aperture around f/5.6 or f/8 (which I hope to do).

The operating manual does mention that hss works in wireless mode. Unfortunately, in my experience, wireless triggering of the flash does not work in bright daylight. But I'm thinking about taking a second tripod, putting a second flash on that tripod, using a cable, setting both flash units into hss, and working that way. Similar to what I do with wedding formals except that there I use wireless (a cable is a hassle) and of course I don't use high-speed sync. I'm going to test this, too, today, and hope it works.

Thanks again everybody.

Will

P.S. Re the pic of my daughter riding: K10D, Pentax DA* 50-135, iso 320, shutter speed 1/320th sec, f/4.5. Can't remember but I suspect I metered off the shadow you can just barely see in the foreground and locked the exposure.

RBellavance · 05-01-2008, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by WMBP

The operating manual does mention that hss works in wireless mode

My understanding of things is that wireless HSS is only possible when an external flash is used as the controller (i.e. not possible using the built-in flash as the controller).

WMBP · 05-01-2008, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by RBellavance

My understanding of things is that wireless HSS is only possible when an external flash is used as the controller (i.e. not possible using the built-in flash as the controller).

For what it's worth, page 47 of the operator's manual for the Pentax 540FGZ says, "The built-in flash unit is used for control flash only. It will not be used for main flash." That says explicitly that it's the controller, so I assume it's possible. Still irrelevant to my present concerns, as I'll be outside in bright light where the controlling pre-flashes aren't effective anyway.

Will

WMBP · 05-01-2008, 03:47 PM

Ach, the problem gets thornier. Just came back from the venue where I'll be shooting this weekend, where I did some test shots with my daughter and my assistant.

During the 15-20 minutes that we were shooting, the light conditions were quite variable. For a minute a cloud would hide the sun completely, then the cloud would move on and it would get quite bright. So this isn't going to be like shooting wedding formals, where I can set the exposure up carefully with a few test shots, and then count on that exposure working for the next 50 photos.

And THAT makes a difference to how I use flash. Might even determine whether I use flash. Not sure how to deal with this but I have another day to figure it out.

Will

krypticide · 05-14-2008, 12:29 PM

I just got into flash photography too. I think you basically just need to use P-TTL mode, and dial in the exposure for ambient (might be best to use M mode). Then adjust the flash power to fill-in the subject. Usually for fill-in, you probably use -2 or -3 FEC, but for flash as a main source of light (like bounce), it's more like 0 or +1 FEC. That's from what I read, anyway. I still have to practice myself!

04-30-2008, 08:53 PM	#1
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	best mode for fill flash With a K20D, what's the best mode - on the camera and/or on the flash - for fill flash? I'm going to be shooting portraits outdoors in the afternoon and I'm reconsidering my options. What I've done in the past is keep the camera on P-TTL, put the K10D/K20D into either hyperprogram or aperture-priority mode, point the flash right at the subject, and dial the flash (Pentax 540FGZ) down about -0.5. This seems to work okay. But I'm worried that I'm missing something. I think I've read that Nikon cameras have a fill flash mode. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but Pentax doesn't seem to have anything like that. Anybody know if Nikons really have such a feature? I've been doing a lot of flash photography in the last year, but all of it has been indoors, and I've always used P-TTL. If I'm shooting outdoors in good afternoon light, would I be better off using A or even M mode on the flash? Grateful for any tips. Will

05-01-2008, 09:25 AM	#9
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482 Original Poster	Originally posted by pentkon52 I did a horse and owner portrait shoot last summer, and used a nice big shade tree on the property for the setting. K10D in Hyp P mode, 360 on Hi Speed sync and set my TV to 1/250. I had to bounce around on the minus for the flash, but -1.0 was the norm. I did some straight on and some bounce, but i didi not write down any data. For the most part they were good, some obvious over flash, but you can't win em all eh,. Dave, Like your pictures. I've done just a little photography of this sort - my second daughter is a life-long rider (what we call "English" over here, hunter/jumper). I'm attaching one shot for which I might have used flash, had I not been afraid that it would spook the horse. Came out okay, as it happens; I was content with the blown highlights here. But having done this little, I know how hard it is to get up there like you do and nail every (or nearly every) shot. I think I'll be using M rather than Tv. Want to keep track of both aperture and shutter speed, aperture for depth of field, of course, and shutter speed in part because I've got it in my head from somewhere that high-speed sync doesn't work if the shutter is over 1/1000th sec. Doesn't say that in the operating manual for the 540FGZ but I read it somewhere. Anybody know if it's true? I ask because, if it's a nice sunny day here in Dallas, even at iso 100 I might be pushing 1/1000th sec if I keep the aperture around f/5.6 or f/8 (which I hope to do). The operating manual does mention that hss works in wireless mode. Unfortunately, in my experience, wireless triggering of the flash does not work in bright daylight. But I'm thinking about taking a second tripod, putting a second flash on that tripod, using a cable, setting both flash units into hss, and working that way. Similar to what I do with wedding formals except that there I use wireless (a cable is a hassle) and of course I don't use high-speed sync. I'm going to test this, too, today, and hope it works. Thanks again everybody. Will P.S. Re the pic of my daughter riding: K10D, Pentax DA* 50-135, iso 320, shutter speed 1/320th sec, f/4.5. Can't remember but I suspect I metered off the shadow you can just barely see in the foreground and locked the exposure. Attached Images Last edited by WMBP; 05-01-2008 at 09:28 AM. Reason: Added postscript

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04-30-2008, 10:45 PM	#2
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482 Original Poster	Followup after a few more hours of practicing. Hard to do this right in the evening, but I think I've figured out a little more about stuff I didn't know before. With the flash in Auto mode, it looks like I can't control the flash output. So forget Auto. And Manual mode on the flash has always seemed to be too much trouble and after playing with it tonight, I've not changed my opinion. I'm eager to hear from anybody who wants to tell me I'm wrong about this. But at the moment, I'm back to P-TTL. But I'm thinking I should try high-speed sync. Have played with it before but never used it for a real shoot. I think I might do some test shooting tomorrow afternoon. I can put the camera into M (hypermanual) mode, set the shutter speed to, oh, 1/250th sec, and I bet that the fill flash might work pretty nicely. Anyway want to tell me I'm on the right track? Wrong track? I should get a Nikon? :-) Will

05-01-2008, 04:11 AM	#3
dkittle Inactive Account Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Toronto, Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 429	I'd be interested in your findings, Will. I'm working at understanding the 540 better and trying out some things with it. I have an event (club banquet) to shoot on Friday and I think I'm going to do it using manual mode the whole night. With the builtin flash I tried fill a few times. I used to put the camera in M mode, meter (with the green button), dial the flash down -1 or -1 1/2 and shoot. It seemed to work good, but my memory might be foggy...

05-01-2008, 05:46 AM	#4
Wethphotography Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Washington, D.C., USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 417	Will, As you know, I have had my share of frustration with the AF 540 and K10D. However, for my last several weddings, I have put the camera on Manual mode when shooting inside. My typical settings are around 1/125 and f4-5.6. I set the flash to P-ttl and shoot away. I get much more consistent flash results. I bounce the flash at 90 degrees with the reflector card pulled up. For outside shooting I have been using manual flash mode with some success and I prefer the control it gives me over the amount of fill light. I am again usually in manual mode on the K10d (around 1/180); I try for a camera meter reading of between -1 and -2 exposure. I then set the flash to 1/16 or 1/32 power depending on ISO and subject distance. My results are more predictable because I have greater control. I will try to email you some photos later today.

05-01-2008, 05:48 AM	#5
thazooo Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 854	I've just started using flash outdoors in daylight, mostly for it's stop action ability. Shooting humming birds against a sunny back ground I used Av f5.6, Pttl with -1.0 compensation. This lit the area and kept the background about normal. I did this with my K10D and AF 360 flash, lens 70=210 set to 150mm, flash head zoomed to max. This varied a good bit when I changed position so I used the Histogram and compensated. The next set in my learning curve will be high speed sync but that will be in over a week . Here's a good site about Flash Photography, covers many situations. planet neil - tangents flash photography techniques

05-01-2008, 07:12 AM	#6
egordon99 Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Outside of Philly Posts: 1,561	Will - You can "trick" Auto mode on the flash to use FEC. Usually you match the ISO/f-stop between the flash and the body, BUT if you adjust one of them on the flash, the flash will compensate. For example, you are at f/2.8, ISO200 outside. Normally you'd set the flash to f/2.8, ISO200 as well. If you actually change the flash to f/4, ISO200, the flash will THINK it needs to output TWICE as much power (because it believes the body to be at f/4). So in essence you'll have FEC+1. As for fill flash, I think keeping it at Av mode/P-TTL and adjust EC and FEC as needed is the best. EC for the ambient exposure, FEC for the flash/fill exposure. One thing to note is you most likely will need to set HSS on the flash since you most likely will be getting shutter speeds faster than 1/180s (which means you can't use Auto mode) My 40D works more or less the same as the Pentax system. Nikon has a dedicated "fill" mode on the flash, but Canon and Pentax use Av mode for fill.

05-01-2008, 08:20 AM	#7
pentkon52 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: York Region Canada Posts: 641	I did a horse and owner portrait shoot last summer, and used a nice big shade tree on the property for the setting. K10D in Hyp P mode, 360 on Hi Speed sync and set my TV to 1/250. I had to bounce around on the minus for the flash, but -1.0 was the norm. I did some straight on and some bounce, but i didi not write down any data. For the most part they were good, some obvious over flash, but you can't win em all eh,. Dave

05-01-2008, 09:36 AM	#10
RBellavance Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Near Montréal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by WMBP The operating manual does mention that hss works in wireless mode My understanding of things is that wireless HSS is only possible when an external flash is used as the controller (i.e. not possible using the built-in flash as the controller).

05-01-2008, 12:09 PM	#11
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482 Original Poster	Originally posted by RBellavance My understanding of things is that wireless HSS is only possible when an external flash is used as the controller (i.e. not possible using the built-in flash as the controller). For what it's worth, page 47 of the operator's manual for the Pentax 540FGZ says, "The built-in flash unit is used for control flash only. It will not be used for main flash." That says explicitly that it's the controller, so I assume it's possible. Still irrelevant to my present concerns, as I'll be outside in bright light where the controlling pre-flashes aren't effective anyway. Will

05-01-2008, 03:47 PM	#12
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482 Original Poster	Ach, the problem gets thornier. Just came back from the venue where I'll be shooting this weekend, where I did some test shots with my daughter and my assistant. During the 15-20 minutes that we were shooting, the light conditions were quite variable. For a minute a cloud would hide the sun completely, then the cloud would move on and it would get quite bright. So this isn't going to be like shooting wedding formals, where I can set the exposure up carefully with a few test shots, and then count on that exposure working for the next 50 photos. And THAT makes a difference to how I use flash. Might even determine whether I use flash. Not sure how to deal with this but I have another day to figure it out. Will

05-14-2008, 12:29 PM	#13
krypticide Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,079	I just got into flash photography too. I think you basically just need to use P-TTL mode, and dial in the exposure for ambient (might be best to use M mode). Then adjust the flash power to fill-in the subject. Usually for fill-in, you probably use -2 or -3 FEC, but for flash as a main source of light (like bounce), it's more like 0 or +1 FEC. That's from what I read, anyway. I still have to practice myself!