Question on histogram / DR

LensBeginner · 01-28-2015, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by nomadkng

Digital Zone System

The Digital Zone System | OutdoorPhotographer.com

these were the two main exposes that came to mind from my past reading. I'm sure if I googled I could find several others, but I find these two websites/sources to usually be credible

This Outdoor Photographer thing seems at least interesting.
Thanks for the link, I will study it in depth and see what I can get from it.

photodesignch · 01-28-2015, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by tuco

Um, well okay. But it seems more just using the histogram and calling it the zone system for the digital age to me.

The idea is similar.. you first meter the subject of interest as zone 5.. then you add 2 more stops to make sure brings brightest point (your right histogram) don't overexpose.. yet squeeze in the most of data onto one shot. My method is to "visualize" the actual chipping, by turn down 2 ~ 3 ev, means I am tuning down 2 EV from zone 7~8.. same concept.. only i don't have to constantly looking for best possible angle make sure everything fits into that histogram. I just take the brightest point and -2 EV.. done for the day..

best thing is while you are looking at chipping area.. you can determine yourself, how much "overexposed sky" you want the photo to be... because you knew you aren't going to get them back.

**Nakedgun** · 01-28-2015, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by nomadkng

It's shoot, chimp, adjust shutter speed, shoot again, chimp, adjust shutter speed.

I see this term "chimp" from time-to-time, but its definition eludes me.

?

wildman · 01-28-2015, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Nakedgun

I see this term "chimp" from time-to-time, but its definition eludes me.

?

Go here....

Chimping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Na Horuk · 01-29-2015, 05:33 AM

One other thing is that metering works in a different way. It looks at the overall brightness (in the areas where it is metering) and then adjusts settings according to algorithms. What you want it to do, is look only for the brightest part in the frame, and expose in such away, that the highlight retains enough information, but is as bright as possible. I'm sure there could be a way to make such a metering system, but I don't think any camera has it. You might get close by using something like a configurable trigger, possibly with its own lightmeter, but even then you risk metering the light outside of the photo frame. And it would be a DIY project, I don't know of anyone doing this so far (but would be interested to see)

wildman · 01-29-2015, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

One other thing is that metering works in a different way. It looks at the overall brightness (in the areas where it is metering) and then adjusts settings according to algorithms. What you want it to do, is look only for the brightest part in the frame, and expose in such away, that the highlight retains enough information, but is as bright as possible. I'm sure there could be a way to make such a metering system, but I don't think any camera has it. You might get close by using something like a configurable trigger, possibly with its own lightmeter, but even then you risk metering the light outside of the photo frame. And it would be a DIY project, I don't know of anyone doing this so far (but would be interested to see)

Depending on the situation I have often walked in close to a scene and spot metered on the highlights, locked the exposure with AE-L lock, backed up, recomposed and pulled the trigger.
It can work well depending on the situation but really should, and could?, be implemented in camera. Maybe some day.

photodesignch · 01-29-2015, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

One other thing is that metering works in a different way. It looks at the overall brightness (in the areas where it is metering) and then adjusts settings according to algorithms. What you want it to do, is look only for the brightest part in the frame, and expose in such away, that the highlight retains enough information, but is as bright as possible. I'm sure there could be a way to make such a metering system, but I don't think any camera has it. You might get close by using something like a configurable trigger, possibly with its own lightmeter, but even then you risk metering the light outside of the photo frame. And it would be a DIY project, I don't know of anyone doing this so far (but would be interested to see)

For some camera doesn't have live histogram, you have to point, shoot, adjust, and repeat. but for looking at brightest.. lucky my camera has both live histogram and live highlight warning.. all i have to do is looking at preview live.. and figure out how much blowout i want it to be. and i knew i have more power on shadow recovery due to high dynamic range, so i won't worry about losing anything.

maxxxx · 02-03-2015, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by photodesignch

For some camera doesn't have live histogram, you have to point, shoot, adjust, and repeat. but for looking at brightest.. lucky my camera has both live histogram and live highlight warning.. all i have to do is looking at preview live.. and figure out how much blowout i want it to be. and i knew i have more power on shadow recovery due to high dynamic range, so i won't worry about losing anything.

On my K-3 the histogram in Live View is quite different from the one of the actual image. I have had several occasions where Live View indicated that the sky would be blown our but the actual image was fine.

**clackers** · 02-03-2015, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by maxxxx

On my K-3 the histogram in Live View is quite different from the one of the actual image. I have had several occasions where Live View indicated that the sky would be blown our but the actual image was fine.

But the histogram is that of the 8-bit JPEG, right?

photodesignch · 02-03-2015, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by maxxxx

On my K-3 the histogram in Live View is quite different from the one of the actual image. I have had several occasions where Live View indicated that the sky would be blown our but the actual image was fine.

True.. The reason been that way is that all histogram were based on RGB 0-255, which means 3 channels were present as 8bit color pattern. However, actual RAW and sensor output is 12bit ~ 14bit. So histogram doesn't do justice comes to real practical usage even live. That's why I tend to trust the highlight preview more.

maxxxx · 02-03-2015, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by photodesignch

True.. The reason been that way is that all histogram were based on RGB 0-255, which means 3 channels were present as 8bit color pattern. However, actual RAW and sensor output is 12bit ~ 14bit. So histogram doesn't do justice comes to real practical usage even live. That's why I tend to trust the highlight preview more.

That makes sense.

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01-28-2015, 02:26 PM	#16
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696 Original Poster	Originally posted by nomadkng Digital Zone System The Digital Zone System \| OutdoorPhotographer.com these were the two main exposes that came to mind from my past reading. I'm sure if I googled I could find several others, but I find these two websites/sources to usually be credible This Outdoor Photographer thing seems at least interesting. Thanks for the link, I will study it in depth and see what I can get from it.

01-28-2015, 02:29 PM	#17
photodesignch Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 133	Originally posted by tuco Um, well okay. But it seems more just using the histogram and calling it the zone system for the digital age to me. The idea is similar.. you first meter the subject of interest as zone 5.. then you add 2 more stops to make sure brings brightest point (your right histogram) don't overexpose.. yet squeeze in the most of data onto one shot. My method is to "visualize" the actual chipping, by turn down 2 ~ 3 ev, means I am tuning down 2 EV from zone 7~8.. same concept.. only i don't have to constantly looking for best possible angle make sure everything fits into that histogram. I just take the brightest point and -2 EV.. done for the day.. best thing is while you are looking at chipping area.. you can determine yourself, how much "overexposed sky" you want the photo to be... because you knew you aren't going to get them back.

01-28-2015, 09:40 PM	#18
Nakedgun Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Southwest Posts: 1,365	Originally posted by nomadkng It's shoot, chimp, adjust shutter speed, shoot again, chimp, adjust shutter speed. I see this term "chimp" from time-to-time, but its definition eludes me. ?

01-28-2015, 11:46 PM	#19
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	Originally posted by Nakedgun I see this term "chimp" from time-to-time, but its definition eludes me. ? Go here.... Chimping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

01-29-2015, 05:33 AM	#20
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	One other thing is that metering works in a different way. It looks at the overall brightness (in the areas where it is metering) and then adjusts settings according to algorithms. What you want it to do, is look only for the brightest part in the frame, and expose in such away, that the highlight retains enough information, but is as bright as possible. I'm sure there could be a way to make such a metering system, but I don't think any camera has it. You might get close by using something like a configurable trigger, possibly with its own lightmeter, but even then you risk metering the light outside of the photo frame. And it would be a DIY project, I don't know of anyone doing this so far (but would be interested to see)

01-29-2015, 06:42 AM	#21
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	Originally posted by Na Horuk One other thing is that metering works in a different way. It looks at the overall brightness (in the areas where it is metering) and then adjusts settings according to algorithms. What you want it to do, is look only for the brightest part in the frame, and expose in such away, that the highlight retains enough information, but is as bright as possible. I'm sure there could be a way to make such a metering system, but I don't think any camera has it. You might get close by using something like a configurable trigger, possibly with its own lightmeter, but even then you risk metering the light outside of the photo frame. And it would be a DIY project, I don't know of anyone doing this so far (but would be interested to see) Depending on the situation I have often walked in close to a scene and spot metered on the highlights, locked the exposure with AE-L lock, backed up, recomposed and pulled the trigger. It can work well depending on the situation but really should, and could?, be implemented in camera. Maybe some day.

01-29-2015, 01:57 PM	#22
photodesignch Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 133	Originally posted by Na Horuk One other thing is that metering works in a different way. It looks at the overall brightness (in the areas where it is metering) and then adjusts settings according to algorithms. What you want it to do, is look only for the brightest part in the frame, and expose in such away, that the highlight retains enough information, but is as bright as possible. I'm sure there could be a way to make such a metering system, but I don't think any camera has it. You might get close by using something like a configurable trigger, possibly with its own lightmeter, but even then you risk metering the light outside of the photo frame. And it would be a DIY project, I don't know of anyone doing this so far (but would be interested to see) For some camera doesn't have live histogram, you have to point, shoot, adjust, and repeat. but for looking at brightest.. lucky my camera has both live histogram and live highlight warning.. all i have to do is looking at preview live.. and figure out how much blowout i want it to be. and i knew i have more power on shadow recovery due to high dynamic range, so i won't worry about losing anything.

02-03-2015, 05:02 PM	#23
maxxxx Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 385	Originally posted by photodesignch For some camera doesn't have live histogram, you have to point, shoot, adjust, and repeat. but for looking at brightest.. lucky my camera has both live histogram and live highlight warning.. all i have to do is looking at preview live.. and figure out how much blowout i want it to be. and i knew i have more power on shadow recovery due to high dynamic range, so i won't worry about losing anything. On my K-3 the histogram in Live View is quite different from the one of the actual image. I have had several occasions where Live View indicated that the sky would be blown our but the actual image was fine.

02-03-2015, 05:13 PM	#24
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by maxxxx On my K-3 the histogram in Live View is quite different from the one of the actual image. I have had several occasions where Live View indicated that the sky would be blown our but the actual image was fine. But the histogram is that of the 8-bit JPEG, right?

02-03-2015, 05:14 PM	#25
photodesignch Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 133	Originally posted by maxxxx On my K-3 the histogram in Live View is quite different from the one of the actual image. I have had several occasions where Live View indicated that the sky would be blown our but the actual image was fine. True.. The reason been that way is that all histogram were based on RGB 0-255, which means 3 channels were present as 8bit color pattern. However, actual RAW and sensor output is 12bit ~ 14bit. So histogram doesn't do justice comes to real practical usage even live. That's why I tend to trust the highlight preview more.

02-03-2015, 09:19 PM	#26
maxxxx Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 385	Originally posted by photodesignch True.. The reason been that way is that all histogram were based on RGB 0-255, which means 3 channels were present as 8bit color pattern. However, actual RAW and sensor output is 12bit ~ 14bit. So histogram doesn't do justice comes to real practical usage even live. That's why I tend to trust the highlight preview more. That makes sense.