Tones and K-3 vs PhaseOne

biz-engineer · 03-06-2015, 11:34 PM - **1 Like**

While browsing through PhaseOne photo galleries I was amazing by the smooth quality of tones and tone range of some of the photographs. Looking back at photo galleries the K-5, or K-3 , or even D7000/D7100, I do not quite see the same effect as PhaseOne delivers. But, I can also see that a number of medium format photos do not look better than APS-c counterparts. So, I'm wondering if these nice smooth tones are due to better sensor performance or if they are related to exposure and post processing , hence also achievable regardless of the sensor size. Anyone being knowledgeable about this , and willing to share?

DSims · 03-07-2015, 12:22 AM - **1 Like**

Yes, I've noticed this smoothness with some Phase One images too. I suspect it's a little of both; nevertheless, you can still do very well with a Pentax and a good lens (e.g. FA43 stopped down a little). I did a direct studio comparison with an FA43 on my Pentax (K-5 or K200D) and a Hasselblad. It was Hasselblad promo event.

When I looked at the photos later in the editing software (it was either Capture One or Phocus) I had trouble telling which images came from which camera, without looking at the metadata. They both had beautiful colors and a pretty similar appearance. I'm well aware of some of the medium format advantages, but this impressed me with just how good the Pentax and an FA43 already was!

I actually believe some of what you see (not all of it, of course) can be due to the CCD sensors. So a K200D or K10D can be good here.

But even on my computer screen I can see breathtaking smoothness on some of those Phase One images. You probably won't completely duplicate it with a DSLR - possibly not even the 645D. And of course Phase One strategically omits support for Pentax 645s and Hasselblad in Capture One, because their software really is good.

biz-engineer · 03-07-2015, 12:28 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience. Now that you say it , yes it looks like these FA limited also have this nice rendering.

6BQ5 · 03-07-2015, 08:49 AM - **1 Like**

Like DSims above, I think the rendering you see comes from a combination of sensor performance, lens characteristics, and software processing. If your sensor data was poor then no software can save you. If your lens has poor performance then your good sensor will save a poor image. Now, assuming you have a good lens projecting a good image onto the good sensor and you have good data from it then good software will really make your digital images stand out. Phase One definitely has something figured out right when it comes to their RAW processing in Capture One. The colors are indeed smooth and gentle but you're not limited in cranking up the micro-contrast and saturation (vibrancy). Their software has good sharpening tools and the noise reduction is OK. You should also note that their software was written primarily for professionals using MF cameras - and usually in a studio setting or some other controlled setting. It's made for portraits, fashion, and product photography. So their software is designed to make those kind of shots with the appropriate lighting look good, especially when shooting tethered. They wanted their clients to see excellent images straight out of the software with no fuddling or fumbling.

It didn't take long for the team to realize that they developed something special and unique. They decided to gradually expand their supported cameras list to include DSLRs and u4/3 since pros use those too. The market embraced their product so the expansion continued up to where you see it today. They don't and won't support everything. It's a commercial decision. For example, they will never support a competing MF body like the 645Z. You can read their user-to-user forum and find plenty of threads started by frustrated users who want to use their 645Z, Hasselblad, etc with Capture One. Phase One flatly says no. You are welcome to create your own work-around but that's on you.

I have switched to Capture One from Aperture and I also notice a huge difference in rendering. The base image, even when using their Linear Response curve, is very nice. Details are crisp, highlights are less washed out, and the image is sharper. Now I have a better starting point. I feel like I don't have to wrestle with the image as much as I did with Aperture. That doesn't make Aperture bad. It just means Aperture fell behind the times. Perhaps if Apple was serious about that program it would have been what Capture One is today.

Sorry, lots of thoughts and digressions here but the topic has been on my mind a lot too.

Last edited by 6BQ5; 03-07-2015 at 09:07 AM.

biz-engineer · 03-07-2015, 09:01 AM

Thanks, I do not have Capture One, it's good to know that you see a special rendering with this software.

DSims · 03-10-2015, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Thanks, I do not have Capture One, it's good to know that you see a special rendering with this software.

Well the trial is free - I think it's still 60 days long.

KDAFA · 03-10-2015, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by DSims

Yes, I've noticed this smoothness with some Phase One images too. I suspect it's a little of both; nevertheless, you can still do very well with a Pentax and a good lens (e.g. FA43 stopped down a little). I did a direct studio comparison with an FA43 on my Pentax (K-5 or K200D) and a Hasselblad. It was Hasselblad promo event.

When I looked at the photos later in the editing software (it was either Capture One or Phocus) I had trouble telling which images came from which camera, without looking at the metadata. They both had beautiful colors and a pretty similar appearance. I'm well aware of some of the medium format advantages, but this impressed me with just how good the Pentax and an FA43 already was!

In my experience using the FA43 (on K-7, K-5II, K-3), I've certainly found it to be an exceptional lens. Lovely colours and SUPERB micro-contrast among other things; not to mention its remarkable 3D-effect rendering.

6BQ5 · 03-10-2015, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by DSims

Well the trial is free - I think it's still 60 days long.

Phase One shortened it to 30 days now. You can potentially install a trial version on multiple computers in series and get a lot of functionality. As one trial expires you move on to another machine - if you have one.

Dartmoor Dave · 03-11-2015, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

While browsing through PhaseOne photo galleries I was amazing by the smooth quality of tones and tone range of some of the photographs.

Back in the film era we used to call that sense of smoothness of tones "plasticity". The general feeling was that you really couldn't get it with miniature formats like 35mm, but that some signs of it would start to appear in well shot medium format. But it was when you went up to a large format view camera that you'd really start to get the effect at its most beautiful. The plasticity of an 8"x10" contact print would blow your mind.

I think in the digital era the same basic principle applies: bigger sensor equals more plasticity. Although I agree with DSims that it seems to be a characteristic of CCD sensors too. I don't own either the 645D or the 645Z, but when I look at the medium format thread here on Pentax Forums I feel that there's much more plasticity in shots from the 645D.

As for the APS-C vs "full frame" debate, I don't think there's enough of a difference in sensor size to make plasticity a deciding factor.

Winder · 03-11-2015, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

While browsing through PhaseOne photo galleries I was amazing by the smooth quality of tones and tone range of some of the photographs. Looking back at photo galleries the K-5, or K-3 , or even D7000/D7100, I do not quite see the same effect as PhaseOne delivers. But, I can also see that a number of medium format photos do not look better than APS-c counterparts. So, I'm wondering if these nice smooth tones are due to better sensor performance or if they are related to exposure and post processing , hence also achievable regardless of the sensor size. Anyone being knowledgeable about this , and willing to share?

Post a link to the images in the gallery that you are referring to.

biz-engineer · 03-11-2015, 10:47 PM

What I'm referring to is smooth transitions between light and shadow areas.
Here is an example from the Phase One pool on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stephencaissie/16308916917/in/pool-phaseone

**Rondec** · 03-12-2015, 02:58 AM

I don't see anything amazing in most of those photos. Lenses definitely have nice rendering and nice transitions from in to out of focus areas. Post processing is not over done and nice use of light.

I think as you move up into rarefied camera gear, you (hopefully) find more photographers who know what they are doing and are able to get the glass and do the post processing necessary to achieve that vision. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get photos that look similar using a K5 II and a FA limited lens, but I think there is a tendency for APS-C well, and full frame photographers too, to bump clarity and vibrance and sharpness up too much. While that makes a photograph pop, it is not as pleasing on the eyes.

Stavri · 03-12-2015, 04:50 AM

Its not just the FA ltds, take any Voigtlander from the 70's and you'll have similar results, excellent true to life tones with beautiful smooth transitions. I use a plethora of PP software, Silkypix to retain the most detail out my images, especially for briding/wildlife shots (It's cumbersome to use unfortunately), LIghtroom for general and portraiture, Photoshop for advanced editing etc. I'm going to give Capture One a try these coming days.

Winder · 03-12-2015, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

What I'm referring to is smooth transitions between light and shadow areas.
Here is an example from the Phase One pool on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stephencaissie/16308916917/in/pool-phaseone

Its a natural light shot. Good defused natural light will always gives you that transition. An 80mm lens gives you good subject isolation and the composition helps with the 3D effect. The only role that sensor size is playing in this image is that to shoot this with an APS-C and keep the perspective and subject distance you would need a +/-35mm lens and its not possible for a 35mm to render like an 80mm so the look will be different.

The look in the picture is a combination of the soft lighting, focal length, composition and subject distance. No special processing.

80mm+/- is considered the sweet spot for portrait work by many people. Whether it is the Pentax 77mm LTD, 75mm Olympus, Canon 85mmL, or the Pentax 645 90mm F/2.8 this is the preferred range to work with. The problem with smaller sensors is that on M4/3 the 75mm Olympus is a very long lens for anything but tight portrait work. 77mm is a great lens, but for this shot with a 77mm on a K-3 you would have had to stand way back and that would change feel of the image because subject distance has changed.

03-06-2015, 11:34 PM - 1 Like	#1
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Tones and K-3 vs PhaseOne While browsing through PhaseOne photo galleries I was amazing by the smooth quality of tones and tone range of some of the photographs. Looking back at photo galleries the K-5, or K-3 , or even D7000/D7100, I do not quite see the same effect as PhaseOne delivers. But, I can also see that a number of medium format photos do not look better than APS-c counterparts. So, I'm wondering if these nice smooth tones are due to better sensor performance or if they are related to exposure and post processing , hence also achievable regardless of the sensor size. Anyone being knowledgeable about this , and willing to share?

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03-07-2015, 12:22 AM - 1 Like	#2
DSims Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,236	Yes, I've noticed this smoothness with some Phase One images too. I suspect it's a little of both; nevertheless, you can still do very well with a Pentax and a good lens (e.g. FA43 stopped down a little). I did a direct studio comparison with an FA43 on my Pentax (K-5 or K200D) and a Hasselblad. It was Hasselblad promo event. When I looked at the photos later in the editing software (it was either Capture One or Phocus) I had trouble telling which images came from which camera, without looking at the metadata. They both had beautiful colors and a pretty similar appearance. I'm well aware of some of the medium format advantages, but this impressed me with just how good the Pentax and an FA43 already was! I actually believe some of what you see (not all of it, of course) can be due to the CCD sensors. So a K200D or K10D can be good here. But even on my computer screen I can see breathtaking smoothness on some of those Phase One images. You probably won't completely duplicate it with a DSLR - possibly not even the 645D. And of course Phase One strategically omits support for Pentax 645s and Hasselblad in Capture One, because their software really is good.

03-07-2015, 12:28 AM	#3
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Thanks for sharing your experience. Now that you say it , yes it looks like these FA limited also have this nice rendering.

03-07-2015, 08:49 AM - 1 Like	#4
6BQ5 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Nevada, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,348	Like DSims above, I think the rendering you see comes from a combination of sensor performance, lens characteristics, and software processing. If your sensor data was poor then no software can save you. If your lens has poor performance then your good sensor will save a poor image. Now, assuming you have a good lens projecting a good image onto the good sensor and you have good data from it then good software will really make your digital images stand out. Phase One definitely has something figured out right when it comes to their RAW processing in Capture One. The colors are indeed smooth and gentle but you're not limited in cranking up the micro-contrast and saturation (vibrancy). Their software has good sharpening tools and the noise reduction is OK. You should also note that their software was written primarily for professionals using MF cameras - and usually in a studio setting or some other controlled setting. It's made for portraits, fashion, and product photography. So their software is designed to make those kind of shots with the appropriate lighting look good, especially when shooting tethered. They wanted their clients to see excellent images straight out of the software with no fuddling or fumbling. It didn't take long for the team to realize that they developed something special and unique. They decided to gradually expand their supported cameras list to include DSLRs and u4/3 since pros use those too. The market embraced their product so the expansion continued up to where you see it today. They don't and won't support everything. It's a commercial decision. For example, they will never support a competing MF body like the 645Z. You can read their user-to-user forum and find plenty of threads started by frustrated users who want to use their 645Z, Hasselblad, etc with Capture One. Phase One flatly says no. You are welcome to create your own work-around but that's on you. I have switched to Capture One from Aperture and I also notice a huge difference in rendering. The base image, even when using their Linear Response curve, is very nice. Details are crisp, highlights are less washed out, and the image is sharper. Now I have a better starting point. I feel like I don't have to wrestle with the image as much as I did with Aperture. That doesn't make Aperture bad. It just means Aperture fell behind the times. Perhaps if Apple was serious about that program it would have been what Capture One is today. Sorry, lots of thoughts and digressions here but the topic has been on my mind a lot too. Last edited by 6BQ5; 03-07-2015 at 09:07 AM.

03-07-2015, 09:01 AM	#5
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	Thanks, I do not have Capture One, it's good to know that you see a special rendering with this software.

03-10-2015, 02:11 AM	#6
DSims Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,236	Originally posted by biz-engineer Thanks, I do not have Capture One, it's good to know that you see a special rendering with this software. Well the trial is free - I think it's still 60 days long.

03-10-2015, 03:05 AM	#7
KDAFA Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 528	Originally posted by DSims Yes, I've noticed this smoothness with some Phase One images too. I suspect it's a little of both; nevertheless, you can still do very well with a Pentax and a good lens (e.g. FA43 stopped down a little). I did a direct studio comparison with an FA43 on my Pentax (K-5 or K200D) and a Hasselblad. It was Hasselblad promo event. When I looked at the photos later in the editing software (it was either Capture One or Phocus) I had trouble telling which images came from which camera, without looking at the metadata. They both had beautiful colors and a pretty similar appearance. I'm well aware of some of the medium format advantages, but this impressed me with just how good the Pentax and an FA43 already was! In my experience using the FA43 (on K-7, K-5II, K-3), I've certainly found it to be an exceptional lens. Lovely colours and SUPERB micro-contrast among other things; not to mention its remarkable 3D-effect rendering.

03-10-2015, 12:24 PM	#8
6BQ5 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Nevada, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,348	Originally posted by DSims Well the trial is free - I think it's still 60 days long. Phase One shortened it to 30 days now. You can potentially install a trial version on multiple computers in series and get a lot of functionality. As one trial expires you move on to another machine - if you have one.

03-11-2015, 01:26 AM	#9
Dartmoor Dave Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Dartmoor, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,882	Originally posted by biz-engineer While browsing through PhaseOne photo galleries I was amazing by the smooth quality of tones and tone range of some of the photographs. Back in the film era we used to call that sense of smoothness of tones "plasticity". The general feeling was that you really couldn't get it with miniature formats like 35mm, but that some signs of it would start to appear in well shot medium format. But it was when you went up to a large format view camera that you'd really start to get the effect at its most beautiful. The plasticity of an 8"x10" contact print would blow your mind. I think in the digital era the same basic principle applies: bigger sensor equals more plasticity. Although I agree with DSims that it seems to be a characteristic of CCD sensors too. I don't own either the 645D or the 645Z, but when I look at the medium format thread here on Pentax Forums I feel that there's much more plasticity in shots from the 645D. As for the APS-C vs "full frame" debate, I don't think there's enough of a difference in sensor size to make plasticity a deciding factor.

03-11-2015, 03:15 PM	#10
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by biz-engineer While browsing through PhaseOne photo galleries I was amazing by the smooth quality of tones and tone range of some of the photographs. Looking back at photo galleries the K-5, or K-3 , or even D7000/D7100, I do not quite see the same effect as PhaseOne delivers. But, I can also see that a number of medium format photos do not look better than APS-c counterparts. So, I'm wondering if these nice smooth tones are due to better sensor performance or if they are related to exposure and post processing , hence also achievable regardless of the sensor size. Anyone being knowledgeable about this , and willing to share? Post a link to the images in the gallery that you are referring to.

03-11-2015, 10:47 PM	#11
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	What I'm referring to is smooth transitions between light and shadow areas. Here is an example from the Phase One pool on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stephencaissie/16308916917/in/pool-phaseone

03-12-2015, 02:58 AM	#12
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	I don't see anything amazing in most of those photos. Lenses definitely have nice rendering and nice transitions from in to out of focus areas. Post processing is not over done and nice use of light. I think as you move up into rarefied camera gear, you (hopefully) find more photographers who know what they are doing and are able to get the glass and do the post processing necessary to achieve that vision. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get photos that look similar using a K5 II and a FA limited lens, but I think there is a tendency for APS-C well, and full frame photographers too, to bump clarity and vibrance and sharpness up too much. While that makes a photograph pop, it is not as pleasing on the eyes.

03-12-2015, 04:50 AM	#13
Stavri Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: at a Bean & Leaf Photos: Albums Posts: 1,832	Its not just the FA ltds, take any Voigtlander from the 70's and you'll have similar results, excellent true to life tones with beautiful smooth transitions. I use a plethora of PP software, Silkypix to retain the most detail out my images, especially for briding/wildlife shots (It's cumbersome to use unfortunately), LIghtroom for general and portraiture, Photoshop for advanced editing etc. I'm going to give Capture One a try these coming days.

03-12-2015, 09:29 AM	#14
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by biz-engineer What I'm referring to is smooth transitions between light and shadow areas. Here is an example from the Phase One pool on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stephencaissie/16308916917/in/pool-phaseone Its a natural light shot. Good defused natural light will always gives you that transition. An 80mm lens gives you good subject isolation and the composition helps with the 3D effect. The only role that sensor size is playing in this image is that to shoot this with an APS-C and keep the perspective and subject distance you would need a +/-35mm lens and its not possible for a 35mm to render like an 80mm so the look will be different. The look in the picture is a combination of the soft lighting, focal length, composition and subject distance. No special processing. 80mm+/- is considered the sweet spot for portrait work by many people. Whether it is the Pentax 77mm LTD, 75mm Olympus, Canon 85mmL, or the Pentax 645 90mm F/2.8 this is the preferred range to work with. The problem with smaller sensors is that on M4/3 the 75mm Olympus is a very long lens for anything but tight portrait work. 77mm is a great lens, but for this shot with a 77mm on a K-3 you would have had to stand way back and that would change feel of the image because subject distance has changed.