[Popty Ping]

Hello all

Hope this is the right forum on PF. Any advice on this would be gratefully received.

A friend of mine runs a soul music night in a Workingmen's club here in the UK. I'm a keen amateur photographer, but very much still learning.

I took my camera to the first couple he did and shot loads of photos. The response to them has been really good and I've almost become the "official" photographer! People I don't know have complimented them online.

I'm keen to improve my shots further-I think I have a decent eye for interestiing "moments" , but struggle with a few things.

I'm using the built-in flash on my K-R. I know a separate flash is better, but it actually gives better results than I expected. I understand aperture/SS/ISO, but I don't really get how flash impacts on those. I shoot in aperture priority mostly. I tend to shoot wide-open, but now I'm using a flash, I guess I have more flexibility - I do occasionally have focus point issues from the narrow DoF. Are higher d-stops an option?

I also don't really understand the impact of flash on shutter speed. I've generally found flash freezes the dancing. When I have experimented with shutter speed, I've found that varying it seems to have little impact - I tried to introduce a little blur at times.

Since using flash, I've kept the ISO low,but some online guides seem to say using higher ISO, particularly to introduce more background light - I don't get this.

Finally, my biggest issue is focusing. It's quite light by the standards of clubs and my sight is good, but I struggle to manually focus through the viewfinder. Is there a way around this? I'm guessing bigger f-stops will make it less critical, if it is possible to use them.

If any can offer any advice e.g. a good starting point for settings, I'd be most grateful. I've looked online, but found the guides a bit confusing.

Thanks


Si

[ismaelg]

Hi,

I have experience with ballet photography. First of all, avoid flash. It is dangerous for the performers. In most dancing venues flash photography is totally prohibited.
But before getting deeper, Do you have sample pics we can look at? How fast or slow is the dancing? How far or close can you get? How is the light? White balance? What lens or lenses are you using? What ISO are you using?
HIGH ISO is my best friend when it comes to fast dancing and low light.
With those additional details we can get to a starting point for settings and go from there.

Thanks,

[crewl1]

This is nightclub photography, not performance, so flash is practically required.
Off camera flash would be your best bet but there may be things you can still try to improve the shots.
If your K-r has slow speed shutter mode or trailing flash sync try those as it will let the shutter stay open to capture some ambient light and then pop the flash at the end for some cool effects.
There are lots of YouTube videos with tips.

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

[crewl1]

Here's Part 2

You Tube

You Tube

[narual]

Focusing -- what focal length are you using? If it's not too long, you can calculate the hyperfocal distance, prefocus, and not have to worry about it unless the subject is close: Online Depth of Field Calculator

Trailing curtain synch will make the movement shots you're trying to do make sense:


If you're using a zoom, use a slowish shutter speed and play with zoom racking (i.e., zoom in or zoom out while the shutter is open, then pop the flash on a low setting with trailing curtain to get a nice clear shot of the subject.


You can also move the lens a bit while the shutter is open, rather than zooming - that can give a neat effect sometimes:

[Popty Ping]

Thanks so much for the replies everyone.

I've written a proper reply with photos attached, but I lost the text - thought I'd lost the photos too, but they are here!

Briefly - I will take on board all your suggestions. I think the main worry is still focusing manually in low light, but I will try the hyper focal distance thing (always struggle a little with that!). I just use an 18-55 kit lens at the minute - hope to upgrade lens and flash sometime.

I will experiment with the different flash settings - think I understand better now.

I've attached three photos quickly. I kind of like first one - girl with blond hair (though I'm tempted to crop). The others are two examples of where I've struggled to focus manually in the relatively low light.


Thanks again



Si

[narual]

Pick up a cheap (I paid $5 for a third party one) 28/2.8 lens, set it to f/11, set the focus to about 11 feet, and everything more than 6 feet away will be in focus. Set it to 6 feet and everything from 4 to 12.5 feet will be in focus. You're using flash so the aperture shouldn't be a too much of a problem.
The wider the focal length, the larger the depth of field. The higher the aperture number, the larger the depth of field.

Your kit lens is quite wide at 18, but no focus scale makes it difficult to prefocus. You can point at something 8 feet away and use AF with the lens wide open and then tape the focus ring in place and switch to manual focus, but that's awkward.

When you decide to upgrade - look at the 24/28-70/75 range. I love my tamron 28-75/2.8 and they're less than $200 used.

[Karet]

I'm using the built-in flash on my K-R. I know a separate flash is better, but it actually gives better results than I expected. I understand aperture/SS/ISO, but I don't really get how flash impacts on those. I shoot in aperture priority mostly. I tend to shoot wide-open, but now I'm using a flash, I guess I have more flexibility - I do occasionally have focus point issues from the narrow DoF. Are higher d-stops an option?

I also don't really understand the impact of flash on shutter speed. I've generally found flash freezes the dancing. When I have experimented with shutter speed, I've found that varying it seems to have little impact - I tried to introduce a little blur at times.

Since using flash, I've kept the ISO low,but some online guides seem to say using higher ISO, particularly to introduce more background light - I don't get this.

Finally, my biggest issue is focusing. It's quite light by the standards of clubs and my sight is good, but I struggle to manually focus through the viewfinder. Is there a way around this? I'm guessing bigger f-stops will make it less critical, if it is possible to use them.

If any can offer any advice e.g. a good starting point for settings, I'd be most grateful. I've looked online, but found the guides a bit confusing.

Thanks

Si

Hi, I practice photography at salsa parties at Rico Latino in Enschede, Netherlands. Have a look at my work here:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.716273665115006.1073741873.128212733921105&type=3
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.755404467868592.1073741875.128212733921105&type=3

Really, get the flash off camera, start with a spiral flash cord, you can upgrade to radio triggers later. Flash straight on gives this awful flat "deer in the headlight" look. Take the flash in your left hand, stretch your arm left and up and aim at your subject. You will get a lot more depth in the faces.

Flash has no impact on shutter speed. This is what you do:
Use the exposure triangle "aperture-shutter speed-iso" to let enough ambient light in. This will show the bar and the party lights. Get in early, take some shots with flash turned off to find settings suitable for the lighting. Black is bad, a bit underexposed is no problem, you pull up the shadows in lightroom afterwards. Noise will increase in the backgrounds but only a trained eye will see it.
Next, use the exposure triangle "aperture-flash power-iso" to light your subject. You will avoid motion blur because the flash duration is faster than 1/1000 of a second. When a light illuminates your subject you will see coloured light bleeding on the edges.
Flash power either means all manual like in the video or you use P-TTL and set flash exposure compensation if the faces are too bright.

I use ISO 1600 with K5II and K3. Nobody will notice noise when you publish on the web. High ISO is good for dance demos because flash output will be lower so the flash will recharge faster than when the flash gives full power at lower ISO.
My gear and settings:
K3, ISO1600, DA 16-45 f4 at f4 to f8, shutter between 1/3 and 1/60. I shoot RAW(dng)+jpeg. I use manual for portraits, aperture priority for the dance demonstrations, the shows are over in 3 minutes so there's no time to adjust settings. AV, iso1600, PTTL, RAW-DNG, develop in Lightroom, this will give me enough room to correct errors to get usable results.
Flash: Metz 58 AF-1 with Stofen omnibounce and spiral flash cord. Flash on extended left arm for portraits, flash in the hotshoe during dance demos. Also, I noticed some ladies have really fast eyes that close halfway from the P-TTL preflash. If this happens I set the flash to A mode where the flash uses the sensor on the flash body (on more expensive flashes). If you don't have A mode try manual mode.
No camera strap, it just gets in the way. I want to put my camera on a table or behind the bar to have a little dance and the strap gets tangled and increases the risk of dropping the camera.
The guy in the video talks about wide angle. I understand the need when the club is crowded but faces get big noses and chins when you are close up with wide angle. If I get the chance I move back at least 1 meter and use 30 mm or more to make faces look more natural. The ladies will love you for that.

Focussing: I use auto focus AF-S for portraits, focus, recompose. Center point is fastest. I use AF-C and move the focus point around for dance demos and dancers.

I hope this gets you further.
Karet

[Popty Ping]

Thanks Karet and everyone else too.

I genuinely do have a better understanding of this now, though I still have some way to go with this. I was taking photos on Saturday night at the event and they were definitely my best set yet.

I do think I may have set the shutter a bit too long though, as there was too much blurring of the lights in the background - there's streakiness in quite a few of them.

I struggled again with focusing at times. It was dark in there. Auto-focused would have hunted like crazy (unless I'm missing something here), so I used manual. Close up shots of people tended to be blurry.

If I could ask two questions, how do you manage to use Auto-focus - does it not "hunt" and get confused? Also, how can you use manual if you have a separate flash? You can't can you - it's got to be Auto-focus as you don't have enough hands.

Next time I'll split setting the camera for the background light and the flash settings. I know understand the impact of ISO on flash.

Thanks again - lots to work on!

[Karet]

Thanks Karet and everyone else too.

I genuinely do have a better understanding of this now, though I still have some way to go with this. I was taking photos on Saturday night at the event and they were definitely my best set yet.

I do think I may have set the shutter a bit too long though, as there was too much blurring of the lights in the background - there's streakiness in quite a few of them.

I struggled again with focusing at times. It was dark in there. Auto-focused would have hunted like crazy (unless I'm missing something here), so I used manual. Close up shots of people tended to be blurry.

If I could ask two questions, how do you manage to use Auto-focus - does it not "hunt" and get confused? Also, how can you use manual if you have a separate flash? You can't can you - it's got to be Auto-focus as you don't have enough hands.

Next time I'll split setting the camera for the background light and the flash settings. I know understand the impact of ISO on flash.

Thanks again - lots to work on!

You mention blurred lights. With good handholding and breathing technique you might solve this, depends on your shutter speed. Or you set ISO higher to get a faster shutter. Here's a good article Heie / Alex Jansen wrote on holding the camera. It's about grip, breathing and squeezing the shutter, not pushing it.
Shooting Long Exposures Hand-Held - Articles and Tips | PentaxForums.com

I had big trouble focussing in a dark club with my K20D and DA 16-45 f/4. Any Canon 550D blows it out of the water. Autofocus in dark circumstances has been much improved from K-5II on, it's now as good as Canikon or better. I don't know Kr well but if it has the same safox version as K20D it might indeed be poor at autofocus when it's dark. And you have the kit lens which is not bright at f/5.6 . An upgrade that does not break the bank is the DA 16-45 F/4. You should be able to find a used one at around GBP 125. Check ebay.co.uk , advanced search, sold listings. Pentax A-28 f/2.8 is a cheaper option at GBP 45 , it will be a lot brighter than what you have now. I bit the bullet and bought K3. P-TTL works like it should and autofocus is good.

Hmm, handholding the flash and manual focus, very tough indeed. I already struggle zooming in and out. I hold the flash in my hand in a way that leaves two fingers for the zooming, it's clumsy but it works.
If you buy a flash, get one that tilts AND SWIVELS. I'll let Jerry Ghionis explain how to get great portraits bouncing it off the wall:
https://youtu.be/H2nNxaBA6ss?t=1h18m30s

If you really enjoy what you are doing now your upgrade path would be in order of priority (used, eBay): Metz 58 AF-1 at GBP 100, DA16-45 at GBP 125, K5-II (great AF, poor TTL) at GBP 350 (or K3 (great AF, good TTL) at GBP 500). Or jump ship and choose Nikon which is supposed to have the most accurate flash metering.

Yep, lots to work on, it took me 20 sets to get where I am. And I learned a lot from wedding photographers on the web. Go watch everything by Jerry Ghionis and Joe Buissink on the B&H youtube channel and read what Neil van Niekerk writes about bouncing the flash.

Keep the questions coming and post some pics.

Enjoy,
Karet

[narual]

Have you looked at putting the flash on a bracket instead of handholding it? Does it need to be that far away from the camera? If you're handholding the flash, I'm guessing you're only holding the camera with one hand, which is going to reduce its stability and make it harder to avoid shaking.

Camera Flash Brackets (on Amazon)

[civiletti]

Get a K-5ii for high iso performance and shoot under existing light with an ultrawide angle lens, such as Sigma 8-16 or Pentax 12-24.

[Karet]

Have you looked at putting the flash on a bracket instead of handholding it? Does it need to be that far away from the camera? If you're handholding the flash, I'm guessing you're only holding the camera with one hand, which is going to reduce its stability and make it harder to avoid shaking.

Camera Flash Brackets (on Amazon)

I have not and the prices you show are attractive. And you are right, I do get blur in the background that would be reduced if I held the camera with two hands. On the other hand, I do like the shadows I get by holding the flash at arm's length. At these prices a bracket could be worth a try.
Karet

[civiletti]

You can zone focus, estimating distance to the point you want in sharpest focus. You cannot get deep DOF and stop action at the same time under low light - which is not an excuse to use flash, which destroys the ambience in your photo - not to mention disturbing the subjects.

[Karet]

You can zone focus, estimating distance to the point you want in sharpest focus. You cannot get deep DOF and stop action at the same time under low light - which is not an excuse to use flash, which destroys the ambience in your photo - not to mention disturbing the subjects.

Tell me what you think, I think there's enough ambience in these shots:
https://www.facebook.com/ricolatino.nl/photos/a.755404467868592.1073741875.1...type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/ricolatino.nl/photos/a.755404467868592.1073741875.1...type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/ricolatino.nl/photos/a.755404467868592.1073741875.1...type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/ricolatino.nl/photos/a.755404467868592.1073741875.1...type=3&theater

And about disturbing the subjects: It depends on how you interact with the people. In my case, I'm part of the scene. They know me, between pictures I dance with these ladies and often I just go up to a dancing couple and challenge the guy "show me your stuff", he makes a couple of interesting moves, I shoot 4 to 8 pictures, give the thumbs up, thank him and I'm gone. I'm less intrusive with beginners though.
I gets me this:
https://www.facebook.com/ricolatino.nl/photos/a.755404467868592.1073741875.1...type=3&theater

Karet