Problem with red colour and K-3

RAART · 06-16-2015, 01:04 PM

Try those links again. I edited some settings...

Link 1 (50mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-ceWwzNHFFbXlrTW8&authuser=0
Link 2 (100mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-cbnJ2U2EtdWROMFU&authuser=0

Post here if it is working now.

LensBeginner · 06-16-2015, 04:26 PM

I've noticed recently that reds that look clipped in, say, ACR, actually aren't clipped at all pre-WB.
What I mean is that the RAW file properly register all the nuances in all the channels (and you only can be sure with something like RAWDigger), and then applying the proper WB setting (let's say daylight) clips a channel or another - mostly the red one.
How one can solve the issue is another story, but the data is there more times than one would thing just looking at the ACR/Shi**ypix/other histogram.

wkraus · 06-16-2015, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by RAART

Try those links again. I edited some settings...

Link 1 (50mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-ceWwzNHFFbXlrTW8&authuser=0
Link 2 (100mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-cbnJ2U2EtdWROMFU&authuser=0

Post here if it is working now.

It works in Safari on my Mac, but it still doesn't in Firefox. I'll report back.

---------- Post added 06-17-15 at 09:02 AM ----------

OK, so this appears to be not a sensor issue (as we suspected all along) but rather one to do with camera calibration during raw conversion.

ACR (the same internal engine as Lightroom) with Adobe Standard profile:

ACR with Embedded profile:

RawTherapee:

All other settings were left unmodified. Does the red in the first screenshot look anywhere near what you saw? I'm afraid not.

RAART · 06-17-2015, 12:10 AM

It does not... The red was a intense red as in the second screenshot... I mean more in that direction.

wkraus · 06-17-2015, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by RAART

It does not... The red was a intense red as in the second screenshot... I mean more in that direction.

I thought so. Well I played a little... I see three approaches. 1. Use RawTherapee which appears to do a better job out of the box. This would have entailed a learning curve; I haven't used it before. 2. Adjust the Camera Calibration in ACR. 3. This is the approach I took: edit in ACR to get closer to what I want but avoid any clipping, saving all the information that is there. Export to ProPhoto RGB and do the rest in Photoshop.

My ACR settings:

We are still left with the weak reds of the Adobe Standard profile.
Let's edit Hue/Saturation/Lightness to our liking. Still no clipping in the histogram:

This does not look all that bad. The sensor actually did a good job here, and the exposure was OK (might have been a little less).
Let's see what happens if we convert to sRGB profile:

The red is now all clipped, but I can still see most of the details in it. Not a lot of difference on my Retina display, whose gamut is not really wider than sRGB.

We can keep this as our edited image, or go even further. All the details that we wish to retain are there in the green channel:

Let's copy the green channel and paste it as a new layer. Set the layer mode to Luminosity and this is what happens. You can control the effect with the layer Opacity.

All the red you may wish for, isn't it? This only works properly if your RGB and Grayscale profiles have the same gamma (1.8 in my case). Alternatively you can create a luminosity layer using the Channel Mixer, with even more control (eg, mix in some of the blue channel for a stronger effect). This will stay in RGB mode. If you don't like what this does with the other colours you can select the red, invert the selection and cut the rest of your luminosity layer.
Note that I converted all screenshots to sRGB for the web.

RAART · 06-18-2015, 09:29 PM

Sorry for not replying earlier but I got sick, and didn't even check the Pentaf Forums... Shame on me!

Thank you for detailed write up!
Sure can be done that way but still I am wondering why is the red blown out and at the histogram is not. Perhaps LR error or something else. I did not checked ACR and Photoshop as I was assuming that they will act the same as LR.

For sure it can be fixed your way (more complicated, to be honest) or the way I did (I could raised the shadows more on the background but I liked that way).

Thanks.

wkraus · 06-19-2015, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by RAART

Sorry for not replying earlier but I got sick, and didn't even check the Pentaf Forums... Shame on me!

No problem at all! I hope you are better now.
As I said it's apparently something to do with camera calibration inside the Adobe engine. I learned quite a bit in the process.

Lille Ulven · 07-24-2015, 02:35 PM

You might want to look up HueLight, someone did actually come up with some color profiles for the K-3 to be used with Lightroom (and possibly with other Adobe stuff as well) and sells them for 15$ per camera model. (It wasn't me.)
If wkraus doesn't mind I'd download his photo - as I don't think I have something with lots of red on a green background - and post the results with these "external" presets in a new post, so you can make up your mind about it and compare it to what Adobe delivers as "Embedded".

SpecialK · 07-24-2015, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by RAART

red....

My Canons do that too. I always shoot in RAW. If it is really bothersome I reduce the saturation a couple clicks.

RAART · 07-24-2015, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Lille Ulven

You might want to look up HueLight, someone did actually come up with some color profiles for the K-3 to be used with Lightroom (and possibly with other Adobe stuff as well) and sells them for 15$ per camera model. (It wasn't me.)
If wkraus doesn't mind I'd download his photo - as I don't think I have something with lots of red on a green background - and post the results with these "external" presets in a new post, so you can make up your mind about it and compare it to what Adobe delivers as "Embedded".

You can download the photo... It is actually my photo and I do not have problems with that.

**jbinpg** · 07-24-2015, 06:11 PM

Here is what I came up with in darktable. Since most of the red problem is in the highlights, I just crushed the highlights severely to see if it made a difference. It certainly brought out the detail. Some may want to mask and smooth the background out. - Jack

Lille Ulven · 07-25-2015, 03:59 AM

First of all: Sorry RAART that I messed up with who owns the photo. Of course I should have noticed that it was yours.

But now for the HueLight results as promised:

Embedded (for comparison):

HueLight K3 High:

HueLight K3 Medium:

HueLight K3 Standard:

HueLight K3 Low:

So the only change I made to the original photo is that I have chosen different camera profiles, no other changes have been made. Hope that helps

07-24-2015, 06:11 PM	#26
jbinpg Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Prince George, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,546	Here is what I came up with in darktable. Since most of the red problem is in the highlights, I just crushed the highlights severely to see if it made a difference. It certainly brought out the detail. Some may want to mask and smooth the background out. - Jack Attached Images

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06-16-2015, 01:04 PM	#16
RAART Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oakville, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,095 Original Poster	Try those links again. I edited some settings... Link 1 (50mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-ceWwzNHFFbXlrTW8&authuser=0 Link 2 (100mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-cbnJ2U2EtdWROMFU&authuser=0 Post here if it is working now.

06-16-2015, 04:26 PM	#17
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	I've noticed recently that reds that look clipped in, say, ACR, actually aren't clipped at all pre-WB. What I mean is that the RAW file properly register all the nuances in all the channels (and you only can be sure with something like RAWDigger), and then applying the proper WB setting (let's say daylight) clips a channel or another - mostly the red one. How one can solve the issue is another story, but the data is there more times than one would thing just looking at the ACR/Shi**ypix/other histogram.

06-16-2015, 11:13 PM	#18
wkraus Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Near Vienna, Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,059	Originally posted by RAART Try those links again. I edited some settings... Link 1 (50mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-ceWwzNHFFbXlrTW8&authuser=0 Link 2 (100mm Lens): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-iswHReGS-cbnJ2U2EtdWROMFU&authuser=0 Post here if it is working now. It works in Safari on my Mac, but it still doesn't in Firefox. I'll report back. ---------- Post added 06-17-15 at 09:02 AM ---------- OK, so this appears to be not a sensor issue (as we suspected all along) but rather one to do with camera calibration during raw conversion. ACR (the same internal engine as Lightroom) with Adobe Standard profile: ACR with Embedded profile: RawTherapee: All other settings were left unmodified. Does the red in the first screenshot look anywhere near what you saw? I'm afraid not.

06-17-2015, 12:10 AM	#19
RAART Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oakville, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,095 Original Poster	It does not... The red was a intense red as in the second screenshot... I mean more in that direction.

06-17-2015, 05:49 AM	#20
wkraus Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Near Vienna, Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,059	Originally posted by RAART It does not... The red was a intense red as in the second screenshot... I mean more in that direction. I thought so. Well I played a little... I see three approaches. 1. Use RawTherapee which appears to do a better job out of the box. This would have entailed a learning curve; I haven't used it before. 2. Adjust the Camera Calibration in ACR. 3. This is the approach I took: edit in ACR to get closer to what I want but avoid any clipping, saving all the information that is there. Export to ProPhoto RGB and do the rest in Photoshop. My ACR settings: We are still left with the weak reds of the Adobe Standard profile. Let's edit Hue/Saturation/Lightness to our liking. Still no clipping in the histogram: This does not look all that bad. The sensor actually did a good job here, and the exposure was OK (might have been a little less). Let's see what happens if we convert to sRGB profile: The red is now all clipped, but I can still see most of the details in it. Not a lot of difference on my Retina display, whose gamut is not really wider than sRGB. We can keep this as our edited image, or go even further. All the details that we wish to retain are there in the green channel: Let's copy the green channel and paste it as a new layer. Set the layer mode to Luminosity and this is what happens. You can control the effect with the layer Opacity. All the red you may wish for, isn't it? This only works properly if your RGB and Grayscale profiles have the same gamma (1.8 in my case). Alternatively you can create a luminosity layer using the Channel Mixer, with even more control (eg, mix in some of the blue channel for a stronger effect). This will stay in RGB mode. If you don't like what this does with the other colours you can select the red, invert the selection and cut the rest of your luminosity layer. Note that I converted all screenshots to sRGB for the web.

06-18-2015, 09:29 PM	#21
RAART Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oakville, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,095 Original Poster	Sorry for not replying earlier but I got sick, and didn't even check the Pentaf Forums... Shame on me! Thank you for detailed write up! Sure can be done that way but still I am wondering why is the red blown out and at the histogram is not. Perhaps LR error or something else. I did not checked ACR and Photoshop as I was assuming that they will act the same as LR. For sure it can be fixed your way (more complicated, to be honest) or the way I did (I could raised the shadows more on the background but I liked that way). Thanks.

06-19-2015, 09:52 AM	#22
wkraus Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Near Vienna, Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,059	Originally posted by RAART Sorry for not replying earlier but I got sick, and didn't even check the Pentaf Forums... Shame on me! No problem at all! I hope you are better now. As I said it's apparently something to do with camera calibration inside the Adobe engine. I learned quite a bit in the process.

07-24-2015, 02:35 PM	#23
Lille Ulven New Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 24	You might want to look up HueLight, someone did actually come up with some color profiles for the K-3 to be used with Lightroom (and possibly with other Adobe stuff as well) and sells them for 15$ per camera model. (It wasn't me.) If wkraus doesn't mind I'd download his photo - as I don't think I have something with lots of red on a green background - and post the results with these "external" presets in a new post, so you can make up your mind about it and compare it to what Adobe delivers as "Embedded".

07-24-2015, 02:47 PM	#24
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,480	Originally posted by RAART red.... My Canons do that too. I always shoot in RAW. If it is really bothersome I reduce the saturation a couple clicks.

07-24-2015, 03:01 PM	#25
RAART Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oakville, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,095 Original Poster	Originally posted by Lille Ulven You might want to look up HueLight, someone did actually come up with some color profiles for the K-3 to be used with Lightroom (and possibly with other Adobe stuff as well) and sells them for 15$ per camera model. (It wasn't me.) If wkraus doesn't mind I'd download his photo - as I don't think I have something with lots of red on a green background - and post the results with these "external" presets in a new post, so you can make up your mind about it and compare it to what Adobe delivers as "Embedded". You can download the photo... It is actually my photo and I do not have problems with that.

07-25-2015, 03:59 AM	#27
Lille Ulven New Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 24	First of all: Sorry RAART that I messed up with who owns the photo. Of course I should have noticed that it was yours. But now for the HueLight results as promised: Embedded (for comparison): HueLight K3 High: HueLight K3 Medium: HueLight K3 Standard: HueLight K3 Low: So the only change I made to the original photo is that I have chosen different camera profiles, no other changes have been made. Hope that helps