Client Etiquette, Question for the semi-Pro/Pro Photographers

metalfab · 06-24-2008, 04:01 AM

I've done 5 volunteer weddings on the side in the past 8 months just to get some experience and see whats all involved.

Recently, a friend of a friend asked to see some of my work as they are getting married. The couple interviewed me and after giving them a good response they asked me to put a quote together. The very next day I emailed the quote and I followed up 3 days after that with a phone call. I had to leave a message as no one answered. I left it at that for a few days. Then I asked the mutual friend of ours if they decided on someone else, they called the couple to ask. The same day I got an answer from the client saying, yes, we'll use your services.

This is were things turn around.

Not even a day later, the client calls my home line (which they got from the mutual friend, they should have called my cell #, which I know they have.) I wasn't home so my wife took the call. The client says; sorry, another person is going to do the photos for free, as a wedding gift. That was it, nothing else.

Now, I know there is no contract on paper and I'm not bitter about the deal I'm just wondering if this has happened to any of you? How did you handle it? Any suggestions/advice for me?

Tom S. · 06-24-2008, 05:39 AM

Forget it and move on. Chances are they will regret their decision unless the 'friend' has the experience and equipment.

If you get into this as a sideline, you will run across this from time to time. People look at photography as being over priced and it's one of the first areas to get cut to reduce costs. Don't be surprised if you find out they asked the other party to do the pictures! Please note I am not agreeing with the practice or the thought. Non-photographers tend to over look the cost of our cameras, lenses, other equipment, and knowledge, the same way the over look the money a mechanic has wrapped up in tools, or a doctor has wrapped up in his/her education.

Just wish them well and move on.

Wheatfield · 06-24-2008, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by metalfab

I've done 5 volunteer weddings on the side in the past 8 months just to get some experience and see whats all involved.

Recently, a friend of a friend asked to see some of my work as they are getting married. The couple interviewed me and after giving them a good response they asked me to put a quote together. The very next day I emailed the quote and I followed up 3 days after that with a phone call. I had to leave a message as no one answered. I left it at that for a few days. Then I asked the mutual friend of ours if they decided on someone else, they called the couple to ask. The same day I got an answer from the client saying, yes, we'll use your services.

This is were things turn around.

Not even a day later, the client calls my home line (which they got from the mutual friend, they should have called my cell #, which I know they have.) I wasn't home so my wife took the call. The client says; sorry, another person is going to do the photos for free, as a wedding gift. That was it, nothing else.

Now, I know there is no contract on paper and I'm not bitter about the deal I'm just wondering if this has happened to any of you? How did you handle it? Any suggestions/advice for me?

It happens. If you are going to play the wedding photographer game, develop a thick skin. You'll need it.

egordon99 · 06-24-2008, 07:33 AM

Look forward to the day when you hear from your mutual friend that the "free" wedding photos stunk

straightshooter · 06-24-2008, 08:01 AM

That's the main reason I quit photography for so long. People wanting me to do their weddings on the cheap. It just got to where picking up my camera wasn't fun anymore. One lesson I did learn early though was stay out of the way of the rice/birdseed or whatever. I've seen shot come out of a 12 guage slower than some of those people threw it.

CW

flyer · 06-24-2008, 08:29 AM

When I was young (sometimes, it seems really far, sometimes, it feels like yesterday), I did a lot of weddings. The ongoing rate in my area, then, was around $1000.00. Then, a known Montréal College started teaching photography for those who wouldn't qualify for advance education and started "dumping" about 300 photographers a year in the street of Montréal. All of a sudden, the ongoing rate went down to about $450.00. That's when I quit doing wedding. Then, you had to pay films, lab work, prints enlargements... and so on. After that, most people asking me to do a wedding was to do a "favor for a friend". Some people don't realize you need to make a living. So, I don't do weddings anymore, unless it is something very special.

metalfab · 06-24-2008, 12:03 PM

Thank you for your experience and knowledge, I really appreciate it.

As this is a side job for me, if work comes it comes, if not I still have my day job. There is another wedding coming up but, again I'm volunteering. The couple have hired a photographer already. I offered to give them all the photos on disk in exchange I can add them to my portfolio.

rfortson · 06-24-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by metalfab

Thank you for your experience and knowledge, I really appreciate it.

As this is a side job for me, if work comes it comes, if not I still have my day job. There is another wedding coming up but, again I'm volunteering. The couple have hired a photographer already. I offered to give them all the photos on disk in exchange I can add them to my portfolio.

If you're giving your services away for free, it's hard to complain about someone else doing the same. This is a common theme in concert/live music photography. People have nice cameras and some can take nice shots for free. The pro's hate this as it's devaluing their services. I don't know the answer. I'm just glad I'm not a pro photographer.

BTW, this is not a slam at you. Just wanted to offer my perspective on the situation.

little laker · 06-24-2008, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by metalfab

There is another wedding coming up but, again I'm volunteering. The couple have hired a photographer already. I offered to give them all the photos on disk in exchange I can add them to my portfolio.

Please don't do that to yourself or the photographer, if anything talk to the pro and ask him for some free training at the wedding.

I'd be very surprised if your not the only photographer there now, they'll probably dismiss him.
Which isn't very pleasant at the last minute, when you've turned down work because of the upcoming job.

sluggo913 · 06-24-2008, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Tom S.

Forget it and move on. Chances are they will regret their decision unless the 'friend' has the experience and equipment.

If you get into this as a sideline, you will run across this from time to time. People look at photography as being over priced and it's one of the first areas to get cut to reduce costs. Don't be surprised if you find out they asked the other party to do the pictures! Please note I am not agreeing with the practice or the thought. Non-photographers tend to over look the cost of our cameras, lenses, other equipment, and knowledge, the same way the over look the money a mechanic has wrapped up in tools, or a doctor has wrapped up in his/her education.

Just wish them well and move on.

I had to respond to this as my everyday job is as a mechanic and I have more money tied up in tools than most people would think, I won't go into amounts but lets just say the return on investment is not very high. I have been taking private photography lessons and one of the first ones was your images have VALUE don't just give them away if it is a good shot someone will be willing to pay for it. I'm taking these lessons for two reasons one to incresase my knowledge and two to switch carrers as I don't have the passion for mechanics anymore. If I work on someones car/truck or whatever on my own time I'm not affraid to charge accordingly for my time, tools, knowledge, ect., You should not be affraid to either, remember the old saying you get what you pay for! Don't worry there will be others if this is what you want to do.

Good luck and don't sweet the small stuff.

MJB DIGITAL · 06-24-2008, 05:41 PM

OP,

you might want to sit down and draw up some business guidlines for yourself i.e. packages to sell (and know their cost) and stuff like that

got a logo?
price sheet?
brochures?

get some of that stuff going and you will see less brides asking for a discount.
they will see that you have a business....then the trick is to show them how valuable it is once they bite....

creampuff · 06-24-2008, 06:28 PM

Doing it for free also means that your "clients" are free to drop you anytime, anyplace. It's the hard truth but it is also the worst way to start a business what more alienate working paid professionals.

Keep shooting free long enough and word will go round that you're cheap labour. When the time comes when you do intend to charge and make money for your effort, you will find it very hard to command any sort of decent rate.

navcom · 06-24-2008, 07:43 PM

Photography is art and is very similar to music or painting. Let's face it, good guitar players and good Bob Ross imitation painters are legion. Likewise, with the proliferation of fantastic photo equipment at affordable prices, the same can be said of photographers.

It all boils down to perceived value in the market place. I get real upset at times with the whining and complaining coming from some (not all of course) in the entertainment or art industries because of the saturation of the market with what they perceive as "freeloaders"...ametuers trying to make a living on their side of the street. They attempt to demean the competition as "dragging down" the profession and even lobby for more laws or regulations to snuff out the competition.

What they are really saying is they don't want to compete and want everyone to accept the industry only as they see it. They should grow up! It's no different in ANY industry! Nobody owes me anything and everyone is deserving of a chance to succeed. We all have to start somewhere and we all deserve a fair chance. If you can sell photos and make a great living with only 2 years of experience, you've obviously learned something in those two years because people won't part with their money unless they like the product. If I am a professional photographer and am jealous of this, tough! I should spend my energy trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and what that person is doing right and learn from it.

Accept these facts....

1) If I want to eat and put a roof over my head taking pictures or making paintings/music, I need to be in a business first. Throw out the romantic idea that we can sit around the pond on an English manor effortlessly creating inspired art and people will be coming out of the woodwork fighting to give you their money. If you look (really look) at the successful photographers or artists, even those that seem to sit around and just make things up and get rich doing it, they really learned early on about proper marketing and how to successfully run a business...period.

2) We will have to compete. If we want the chance to succeed, we have to be willing to accept that others must have that chance too. Say what you want about Andy Warhol. In my mind his art was strange but nobody can say he wasn't inspired. What separated him from the hoardes of other artists was his ability to give people something that hadn't been expressed quite like he did...he did something that made him stand out. And he was able to market it. In order to succeed in this industry, you have to do something that separates you from the pack and then you also have to know how to sell it. It doesn't have to be to the Warhol extreme, but you have to stand out. There is no easy way to get around this fact.

3) You have to provide a product people want to buy and market it to those willing to spend. Too many new photographers and artists think that to succeed, you just need to be inspired, create your art, and the business will take care of itself. Being creative exclusively is GREAT! But in and of itself, it will most likely only give you a great hobby. It's why there are so many wedding pictures taken by the family friend. For many folks, a satisfactory product can be created by anyone with simple camera savvy. That's their "perceived value" of the product. The photos won't make the cover of LIFE, but most folks don't care...it's simply not worth $2000 to get this edge. If you want to make a living, you have to accept this and the need to create a product people want to buy and know who to market it to.

Someone once asked a wise business associate of mine how a new business could possibly compete with Walmart. He said they should start by investing millions in wholesale product contracts, purchase millions in transportation/trucking equipment, a distribution infractructure, and of course, billions in store buildings and employees all over the country. What he was saying is you can't compete with Walmart, so don't try! Sell something that DOESN'T compete with Walmart. This person's business view was that the only way to be successful in business was to to figure out the "secret" on how to sell something cheaper than Walmart. Folks, there is no secret. Don't play chicken with the train...it's gonna win. Find something easier to beat.

There will always be friends who will take wedding pictures for free or cheap. It's a fact of the market. But there are also alot of great professional photogs who are extremely successful taking wedding pictures. If we want to take wedding pictures, we have to either adapt to the market and it's Walmart prices or create your own market with something that stands out and demands a higher price. Or be like me...forget the whole wedding photog thing and realize I'm really just a great big hobbyist at heart!

little laker · 06-25-2008, 12:17 AM

That's a good post navcom

metalfab · 06-25-2008, 02:32 AM

Wow, thanks again for the replies.

Let me explain myself a bit more. The upcoming wedding that I'm volunteering at is some friends from the church. They already have hired a pro and no, they will not be letting him go just because I said I'll do photos for free. It's a win win because they will get some good photos from me and it will help build my portfolio a bit more.

Time is money, I'm a metal fabricator / welder and know it all too well. Photography is a very part time job right now. I'm just like sluggo913, eventually, if it comes close to what I make now then I'll quit my day job. It might be a year, 3 years, 5 years, maybe never, I'm going to give go either way.

06-24-2008, 04:01 AM	#1
metalfab Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 302	Client Etiquette, Question for the semi-Pro/Pro Photographers I've done 5 volunteer weddings on the side in the past 8 months just to get some experience and see whats all involved. Recently, a friend of a friend asked to see some of my work as they are getting married. The couple interviewed me and after giving them a good response they asked me to put a quote together. The very next day I emailed the quote and I followed up 3 days after that with a phone call. I had to leave a message as no one answered. I left it at that for a few days. Then I asked the mutual friend of ours if they decided on someone else, they called the couple to ask. The same day I got an answer from the client saying, yes, we'll use your services. This is were things turn around. Not even a day later, the client calls my home line (which they got from the mutual friend, they should have called my cell #, which I know they have.) I wasn't home so my wife took the call. The client says; sorry, another person is going to do the photos for free, as a wedding gift. That was it, nothing else. Now, I know there is no contract on paper and I'm not bitter about the deal I'm just wondering if this has happened to any of you? How did you handle it? Any suggestions/advice for me?

06-24-2008, 04:38 PM	#10
sluggo913 Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Upton, Ma. Photos: Gallery Posts: 108	Don't give anything away unless it is a gift Originally posted by Tom S. Forget it and move on. Chances are they will regret their decision unless the 'friend' has the experience and equipment. If you get into this as a sideline, you will run across this from time to time. People look at photography as being over priced and it's one of the first areas to get cut to reduce costs. Don't be surprised if you find out they asked the other party to do the pictures! Please note I am not agreeing with the practice or the thought. Non-photographers tend to over look the cost of our cameras, lenses, other equipment, and knowledge, the same way the over look the money a mechanic has wrapped up in tools, or a doctor has wrapped up in his/her education. Just wish them well and move on. I had to respond to this as my everyday job is as a mechanic and I have more money tied up in tools than most people would think, I won't go into amounts but lets just say the return on investment is not very high. I have been taking private photography lessons and one of the first ones was your images have VALUE don't just give them away if it is a good shot someone will be willing to pay for it. I'm taking these lessons for two reasons one to incresase my knowledge and two to switch carrers as I don't have the passion for mechanics anymore. If I work on someones car/truck or whatever on my own time I'm not affraid to charge accordingly for my time, tools, knowledge, ect., You should not be affraid to either, remember the old saying you get what you pay for! Don't worry there will be others if this is what you want to do. Good luck and don't sweet the small stuff.

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06-24-2008, 05:39 AM	#2
Tom S. Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Michigan Photos: Albums Posts: 4,317	Forget it and move on. Chances are they will regret their decision unless the 'friend' has the experience and equipment. If you get into this as a sideline, you will run across this from time to time. People look at photography as being over priced and it's one of the first areas to get cut to reduce costs. Don't be surprised if you find out they asked the other party to do the pictures! Please note I am not agreeing with the practice or the thought. Non-photographers tend to over look the cost of our cameras, lenses, other equipment, and knowledge, the same way the over look the money a mechanic has wrapped up in tools, or a doctor has wrapped up in his/her education. Just wish them well and move on.

06-24-2008, 06:08 AM	#3
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,986	Originally posted by metalfab I've done 5 volunteer weddings on the side in the past 8 months just to get some experience and see whats all involved. Recently, a friend of a friend asked to see some of my work as they are getting married. The couple interviewed me and after giving them a good response they asked me to put a quote together. The very next day I emailed the quote and I followed up 3 days after that with a phone call. I had to leave a message as no one answered. I left it at that for a few days. Then I asked the mutual friend of ours if they decided on someone else, they called the couple to ask. The same day I got an answer from the client saying, yes, we'll use your services. This is were things turn around. Not even a day later, the client calls my home line (which they got from the mutual friend, they should have called my cell #, which I know they have.) I wasn't home so my wife took the call. The client says; sorry, another person is going to do the photos for free, as a wedding gift. That was it, nothing else. Now, I know there is no contract on paper and I'm not bitter about the deal I'm just wondering if this has happened to any of you? How did you handle it? Any suggestions/advice for me? It happens. If you are going to play the wedding photographer game, develop a thick skin. You'll need it.

06-24-2008, 07:33 AM	#4
egordon99 Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Outside of Philly Posts: 1,561	Look forward to the day when you hear from your mutual friend that the "free" wedding photos stunk

06-24-2008, 08:01 AM	#5
straightshooter Inactive Account Join Date: May 2008 Location: Forest Park, Georgia/Jacksonville, Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 633	That's the main reason I quit photography for so long. People wanting me to do their weddings on the cheap. It just got to where picking up my camera wasn't fun anymore. One lesson I did learn early though was stay out of the way of the rice/birdseed or whatever. I've seen shot come out of a 12 guage slower than some of those people threw it. CW

06-24-2008, 08:29 AM	#6
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013	When I was young (sometimes, it seems really far, sometimes, it feels like yesterday), I did a lot of weddings. The ongoing rate in my area, then, was around $1000.00. Then, a known Montréal College started teaching photography for those who wouldn't qualify for advance education and started "dumping" about 300 photographers a year in the street of Montréal. All of a sudden, the ongoing rate went down to about $450.00. That's when I quit doing wedding. Then, you had to pay films, lab work, prints enlargements... and so on. After that, most people asking me to do a wedding was to do a "favor for a friend". Some people don't realize you need to make a living. So, I don't do weddings anymore, unless it is something very special.

06-24-2008, 12:03 PM	#7
metalfab Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 302 Original Poster	Thank you for your experience and knowledge, I really appreciate it. As this is a side job for me, if work comes it comes, if not I still have my day job. There is another wedding coming up but, again I'm volunteering. The couple have hired a photographer already. I offered to give them all the photos on disk in exchange I can add them to my portfolio.

06-24-2008, 01:33 PM	#8
rfortson Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Houston TX Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,129	Originally posted by metalfab Thank you for your experience and knowledge, I really appreciate it. As this is a side job for me, if work comes it comes, if not I still have my day job. There is another wedding coming up but, again I'm volunteering. The couple have hired a photographer already. I offered to give them all the photos on disk in exchange I can add them to my portfolio. If you're giving your services away for free, it's hard to complain about someone else doing the same. This is a common theme in concert/live music photography. People have nice cameras and some can take nice shots for free. The pro's hate this as it's devaluing their services. I don't know the answer. I'm just glad I'm not a pro photographer. BTW, this is not a slam at you. Just wanted to offer my perspective on the situation.

06-24-2008, 04:22 PM	#9
little laker Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,697	Originally posted by metalfab There is another wedding coming up but, again I'm volunteering. The couple have hired a photographer already. I offered to give them all the photos on disk in exchange I can add them to my portfolio. Please don't do that to yourself or the photographer, if anything talk to the pro and ask him for some free training at the wedding. I'd be very surprised if your not the only photographer there now, they'll probably dismiss him. Which isn't very pleasant at the last minute, when you've turned down work because of the upcoming job.

06-24-2008, 05:41 PM	#11
MJB DIGITAL Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st. louis Posts: 1,170	OP, you might want to sit down and draw up some business guidlines for yourself i.e. packages to sell (and know their cost) and stuff like that got a logo? price sheet? brochures? get some of that stuff going and you will see less brides asking for a discount. they will see that you have a business....then the trick is to show them how valuable it is once they bite....

06-24-2008, 06:28 PM	#12
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Doing it for free also means that your "clients" are free to drop you anytime, anyplace. It's the hard truth but it is also the worst way to start a business what more alienate working paid professionals. Keep shooting free long enough and word will go round that you're cheap labour. When the time comes when you do intend to charge and make money for your effort, you will find it very hard to command any sort of decent rate.

06-24-2008, 07:43 PM	#13
navcom Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Minnesota USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 807	Photography is art and is very similar to music or painting. Let's face it, good guitar players and good Bob Ross imitation painters are legion. Likewise, with the proliferation of fantastic photo equipment at affordable prices, the same can be said of photographers. It all boils down to perceived value in the market place. I get real upset at times with the whining and complaining coming from some (not all of course) in the entertainment or art industries because of the saturation of the market with what they perceive as "freeloaders"...ametuers trying to make a living on their side of the street. They attempt to demean the competition as "dragging down" the profession and even lobby for more laws or regulations to snuff out the competition. What they are really saying is they don't want to compete and want everyone to accept the industry only as they see it. They should grow up! It's no different in ANY industry! Nobody owes me anything and everyone is deserving of a chance to succeed. We all have to start somewhere and we all deserve a fair chance. If you can sell photos and make a great living with only 2 years of experience, you've obviously learned something in those two years because people won't part with their money unless they like the product. If I am a professional photographer and am jealous of this, tough! I should spend my energy trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and what that person is doing right and learn from it. Accept these facts.... 1) If I want to eat and put a roof over my head taking pictures or making paintings/music, I need to be in a business first. Throw out the romantic idea that we can sit around the pond on an English manor effortlessly creating inspired art and people will be coming out of the woodwork fighting to give you their money. If you look (really look) at the successful photographers or artists, even those that seem to sit around and just make things up and get rich doing it, they really learned early on about proper marketing and how to successfully run a business...period. 2) We will have to compete. If we want the chance to succeed, we have to be willing to accept that others must have that chance too. Say what you want about Andy Warhol. In my mind his art was strange but nobody can say he wasn't inspired. What separated him from the hoardes of other artists was his ability to give people something that hadn't been expressed quite like he did...he did something that made him stand out. And he was able to market it. In order to succeed in this industry, you have to do something that separates you from the pack and then you also have to know how to sell it. It doesn't have to be to the Warhol extreme, but you have to stand out. There is no easy way to get around this fact. 3) You have to provide a product people want to buy and market it to those willing to spend. Too many new photographers and artists think that to succeed, you just need to be inspired, create your art, and the business will take care of itself. Being creative exclusively is GREAT! But in and of itself, it will most likely only give you a great hobby. It's why there are so many wedding pictures taken by the family friend. For many folks, a satisfactory product can be created by anyone with simple camera savvy. That's their "perceived value" of the product. The photos won't make the cover of LIFE, but most folks don't care...it's simply not worth $2000 to get this edge. If you want to make a living, you have to accept this and the need to create a product people want to buy and know who to market it to. Someone once asked a wise business associate of mine how a new business could possibly compete with Walmart. He said they should start by investing millions in wholesale product contracts, purchase millions in transportation/trucking equipment, a distribution infractructure, and of course, billions in store buildings and employees all over the country. What he was saying is you can't compete with Walmart, so don't try! Sell something that DOESN'T compete with Walmart. This person's business view was that the only way to be successful in business was to to figure out the "secret" on how to sell something cheaper than Walmart. Folks, there is no secret. Don't play chicken with the train...it's gonna win. Find something easier to beat. There will always be friends who will take wedding pictures for free or cheap. It's a fact of the market. But there are also alot of great professional photogs who are extremely successful taking wedding pictures. If we want to take wedding pictures, we have to either adapt to the market and it's Walmart prices or create your own market with something that stands out and demands a higher price. Or be like me...forget the whole wedding photog thing and realize I'm really just a great big hobbyist at heart!

06-25-2008, 12:17 AM	#14
little laker Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,697	That's a good post navcom

06-25-2008, 02:32 AM	#15
metalfab Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 302 Original Poster	Wow, thanks again for the replies. Let me explain myself a bit more. The upcoming wedding that I'm volunteering at is some friends from the church. They already have hired a pro and no, they will not be letting him go just because I said I'll do photos for free. It's a win win because they will get some good photos from me and it will help build my portfolio a bit more. Time is money, I'm a metal fabricator / welder and know it all too well. Photography is a very part time job right now. I'm just like sluggo913, eventually, if it comes close to what I make now then I'll quit my day job. It might be a year, 3 years, 5 years, maybe never, I'm going to give go either way.