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11-02-2017, 02:40 PM - 1 Like   #1
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ETTRing Correctly?

Settings;

- Manual Mode
- Spot Metering
- EV Steps 2 (1/2 EV Steps)
- AF Active Area, Spot
- +/- EV Compensation 1.5 (ie 3 left pushes to the right)
- Blinkies on
- RAW (DNG)
- ISO 100

Technique;

Aim the center spot on the brightest area in the landscape that you wish to photograph, then press Green Button. Check that you are happy with DoF and shutter speed given. If not adjust as necessary but ensure exposure is still reading as 0.0 in OVF. Reframe and simply click and review. If you have a small amount of blinkies then it is likely exposed correctly when visiting LR (as JPG Live View review pushes contrast up vs RAW file actually taken).

Does this seem right to you? Checking these settings I get a small amount of blinkies on camera and no highlight warning in LR.

Anything else to add?

Cheers,

Bruce


Last edited by BruceBanner; 11-03-2017 at 04:10 AM.
11-02-2017, 03:43 PM - 1 Like   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Aim the center spot on the brightest area in the landscape that you wish to photograph, then press Green Button.
That will place the exposure of that brightest area to 18% gray resulting in several stops underexposure and potential loss of low value detail. I would suggest using the histogram* with matrix metering and placing exposure for the frame such that the highlights don't clip against the right margin. Alternatively, set exposure compensation to +3 when doing the highlight spot metering.

Addendum: The spot meter is used to "place exposure" to a particular portion of the frame. If one intends something other than a middle value (think lawn grass in full daylight), additional or less exposure would be indicated.

Steve

* Be sure to have the image type set to "natural" if using the histogram.

Last edited by stevebrot; 11-02-2017 at 04:18 PM.
11-02-2017, 08:21 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That will place the exposure of that brightest area to 18% gray resulting in several stops underexposure and potential loss of low value detail. I would suggest using the histogram* with matrix metering and placing exposure for the frame such that the highlights don't clip against the right margin. Alternatively, set exposure compensation to +3 when doing the highlight spot metering.

Addendum: The spot meter is used to "place exposure" to a particular portion of the frame. If one intends something other than a middle value (think lawn grass in full daylight), additional or less exposure would be indicated.

Steve

* Be sure to have the image type set to "natural" if using the histogram.
Thanks for the reply.

I was following some other articles and guidance in this regard for ETTR, and I believe I set things up right, the only factor I could mess things up with is if when using the spot meter and taking a 'measurement' of the brightest thing in the shot (such as the sky, or reflections on the water etc), that once hitting the green button for that bright area with the center spot focus point, reframing and then shooting (because remember I have a +1.5 (or 3 pushes to the right of the EV Compensation already) that if that thing/area is actually not the brightest thing in the shot everything is too overexposed.

I didn't know about using 'natural' in histogram, but from other articles I read they also stated that the histogram cannot be trusted either, as it can be (model dependent) a histogram of the jpg not raw file.
Blinkies are better to be trusted, that is after the shot you want to see a small amount of blinkies, as this suggests you push as far to the right as possible without actually blowing highlights (because the RAW file will be fine). You can only decide upon what EV compensation value to use based on trial and error with shooting and then reviewing shots in LR etc with the RAW file.

I experimented with this this morning. I stepped outside my house on a bright sunny morning, the sun was lighting up my white/cream letterbox the most, it was clearly the brightest thing in the shot, so i used the spot meter and spot/centre focus, and then hit the green button, I then reframed (so perhaps the letter box is now seen bottom right) and take the shot. Because I had a EV compensation value of 1.5 everything in the shot was bright, but not too bright, sky wasn't quite blinking hard, the letter box blinking a little, but the shadow area of the lawn cast from the house was easily viewable and not overly dark.

Perhaps where we're crossing wires is I have the EV Compensation at +1.5 before i even hit the green button on the brightest thing in the shot?
11-02-2017, 09:10 PM - 1 Like   #4
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I find 'blinkies' annoying/distracting so I turn them off.
I set my camera up to use digital preview.
I press the green button and then do a preview.
I check the preview histogram and adjust the exposure.
Do another preview, check histogram. When histogram looks 'right', I take my shot.
I can usually tell by looking at my first preview how many clicks of the control wheel will give me a proper exposure.

11-02-2017, 09:37 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Perhaps where we're crossing wires is I have the EV Compensation at +1.5 before i even hit the green button on the brightest thing in the shot?
Yes, you are correct. I missed that...I would give it even more if you are placing exposure with the spot meter. The uncompensated meter will expose at least four stops below the clipping point, that is why I suggested +3 EC. That being said, classic ETTR technique is histogram-based with the intent being to push the right hand tail as far as possible to maximize data in the frame. There is always risk even with the spot meter, of the right tail of the curve being clipped and working from the histogram helps avoid this.

Of course, you can work all this out by trial and even try several methods on the same composition to see which works best.


Steve
11-02-2017, 09:41 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I didn't know about using 'natural' in histogram, but from other articles I read they also stated that the histogram cannot be trusted either, as it can be (model dependent) a histogram of the jpg not raw file.
The histogram is always based on the JPEG interpretation. The RAW data has no histogram in the usual sense. That is why it is important to make sure that the JPEG settings are not exaggerated.


Steve
11-02-2017, 10:32 PM   #7
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Found out that the sport metering on the most brightest area of the frame with +2ev compensation, then AE lock , works very well. My experience is that +3ev exp. compensation get the highlights burned, or did I miss something?
11-03-2017, 12:00 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnyates Quote
I find 'blinkies' annoying/distracting so I turn them off.
I set my camera up to use digital preview.
I press the green button and then do a preview.
I check the preview histogram and adjust the exposure.
Do another preview, check histogram. When histogram looks 'right', I take my shot.
I can usually tell by looking at my first preview how many clicks of the control wheel will give me a proper exposure.
Blinkies can be annoying, I tend not to have them on unless in specific modes like this. A little blinking can be fine, at the end of the day I'd rather the Live View Playback show me mistakes than look 'ok' and then get back home and realise I've over done things without realising.

Nice idea for digital preview, however, with the spot metering I am looking through the OVF for these kinda shots, and to take my eye away to check the preview I find a bit tricky and disturbs my flow. I tried setting the preview to optical, oddly it worked for the DA 15mm but not the FA 50mm... but I'm not sure the OVF really does a 'preview' of exposure but rather DoF checking?

And yeh I think after awhile of doing this you will get to know the camera, lens and scenario and compensate pretty quickly after a digital review/chimping.


QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The histogram is always based on the JPEG interpretation. The RAW data has no histogram in the usual sense. That is why it is important to make sure that the JPEG settings are not exaggerated.



Steve
How does one do this? Just set the 'scene' to Natural instead of Bright or Portrait etc?

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Found out that the sport metering on the most brightest area of the frame with +2ev compensation, then AE lock , works very well. My experience is that +3ev exp. compensation get the highlights burned, or did I miss something?
Yeh I'm feeling the initial +1.5 this morning was slightly safe, I'm finding 2-2.5 is better with +3 being too much, tho it may just depend on the scene and how bright that bright spot actually really is in comparison to the rest of the light in the frame.

11-03-2017, 03:43 AM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Settings;

- Manual Mode
- Spot Metering
- EV Steps 2 (1/2 EV Steps)
- AF Active Area, Spot
- +/- EV Compensation 1.5 (ie 3 left pushes to the right)
- Blinkies on
- RAW (DNG)

Technique;

Aim the center spot on the brightest area in the landscape that you wish to photograph, then press Green Button. Check that you are happy with DoF and shutter speed given. If not adjust as necessary but ensure exposure is still reading as 0.0 in OVF. Reframe and simply click and review. If you have a small amount of blinkies then it is likely exposed correctly when visiting LR (as JPG Live View review pushes contrast up vs RAW file actually taken).

Does this seem right to you? Checking these settings I get a small amount of blinkies on camera and no highlight warning in LR.

Anything else to add?

Cheers,

Bruce
One thing worth adding is that the whole concept of ETTR is only valid at base Iso - so Iso 100 should be added to your list.
11-03-2017, 04:10 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
One thing worth adding is that the whole concept of ETTR is only valid at base Iso - so Iso 100 should be added to your list.
Quite right, I'll amend that, cheers.
11-03-2017, 07:28 AM - 2 Likes   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
One thing worth adding is that the whole concept of ETTR is only valid at base Iso - so Iso 100 should be added to your list.
This is where the invariant ISO people chime in with their take on digital exposure theory. There will also be a degree of gloating by Pentax shooters aimed at Canon product and lots of talk about DPReview and DxOMark.

After a few pages, some old goat will make a Zone System reference and others will suggest that the evaluative metering system on the their camera does an excellent job of taking care of the all this mess with a minimum of fuss along with a note that bracketing for HDR has a purpose.

I fall into the last camp, but won't elaborate because doing so will interfere with the normal thread development.




Steve
11-03-2017, 12:31 PM   #12
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Interestingly, the high-light protection mode of the Pentax K1 doesn't taken exposure compensation into account. Too bad, because one could set his exp. compensation to +2 and the high light mode would underexpose if it happens that something in the image is clamped (from reading the RGB exposure sensor.
11-03-2017, 12:44 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
This is where the invariant ISO people chime in with their take on digital exposure theory. There will also be a degree of gloating by Pentax shooters aimed at Canon product and lots of talk about DPReview and DxOMark.

After a few pages, some old goat will make a Zone System reference and others will suggest that the evaluative metering system on the their camera does an excellent job of taking care of the all this mess with a minimum of fuss along with a note that bracketing for HDR has a purpose.

I fall into the last camp, but won't elaborate because doing so will interfere with the normal thread development.




Steve
If you accept that maximising signal to noise ratio is the key concept of ETTR and that the SNR is set by the sensor before the info is amplified then ETTR and utilizing Iso invariance are totally complimentary.
11-03-2017, 02:09 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
This is where the invariant ISO people chime in with their take on digital exposure theory. There will also be a degree of gloating by Pentax shooters aimed at Canon product and lots of talk about DPReview and DxOMark.

After a few pages, some old goat will make a Zone System reference and others will suggest that the evaluative metering system on the their camera does an excellent job of taking care of the all this mess with a minimum of fuss along with a note that bracketing for HDR has a purpose.

I fall into the last camp, but won't elaborate because doing so will interfere with the normal thread development.




Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
If you accept that maximising signal to noise ratio is the key concept of ETTR and that the SNR is set by the sensor before the info is amplified then ETTR and utilizing Iso invariance are totally complimentary.
... and so it begins

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Interestingly, the high-light protection mode of the Pentax K1 doesn't taken exposure compensation into account. Too bad, because one could set his exp. compensation to +2 and the high light mode would underexpose if it happens that something in the image is clamped (from reading the RGB exposure sensor.
Hmm... is that the Menu 2>D-Range Settings>Highlight Correction option? Isn't that for jpgs only?
11-03-2017, 02:17 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
.. and so it begins
I didn't start it!! - he did
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