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12-13-2017, 04:26 PM   #1
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Buffering issue with RAW+?

I never normally take RAW+, typically just RAW, I did however after taking certain advice here do so last Sunday during the wedding shoot. Numerous times I ran into the buffering issue, whereby I could not continuously take another picture till I gave the K-1 time to recover and process the shots before. Suffice to say I never ran into this issue before so I doubt I will be using RAW+ ever again.

Even with one SD card in the camera the issue still persists, I don't think my cards are the problem (Extreme Pro 95mb/sec). I just tried now with RAW+ to try a Brenizer shot, could not complete even 10-15 shots quickly before the buffering issue occurred. It's a deal breaker for sure.

Anyway, is this a thing? No one seemed to mention it to me previously that using RAW+ comes with that risk...

Yes... spamming shots is amateurish on some level, but on other levels (like making a Brenizer shot) it is absolutely critical to be able to fire off 30-40 shots in very quick succession with no lag/delay.

Is this a Pentax only thing?

TIA!

Bruce

12-13-2017, 04:42 PM   #2
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It just may be the camera, the K-1 is not a camera that is focused on taking a lot of fps or having a massive buffer count, and with that said It just may be that the camera is not designed for handling a lot of photos at the same time
Hope this helps!
12-13-2017, 04:58 PM   #3
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The camera is writing two files at a time, logically meaning that the buffer is dealing with nearly doubled write time.

---------- Post added 12-13-17 at 07:09 PM ----------

If you are in "Backup Mode", this comment in a review of the K-1 may apply (see below).

"Write times more than doubled in this mode, and the number of frames captured per burst decreased."
12-13-2017, 05:21 PM   #4
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Just shooting raw without JPEG and without any post processing gives more throughput.

12-13-2017, 06:39 PM   #5
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It could be buffer speed or card write speed. Note that even if your card has a super fast write speed (which is different from read speed), the camera itself is not superfast at writing. Many modern premium SD cards are faster than the camera can utilize. The other problem can be the camera's post processing. This PP gets applied to all jpegs, even the preview thumbnails inside raw photos. Things like Distortion correction can make this process significantly slower. I would recommend you turn off all of the jpeg corrections for maximal speed. But I guess you want to get some good jpegs alongside the raw, so you might want to only disable the especially draining ones. The latest camera generations have quite a few of these options, CA, vignetting, distortion, diffraction, tonemapping, I don't even know what else.

Your shooting might also be slowed by things like AF if you have AF set to run between every shot and you have AF priority (instead of shutter priority). Maybe there are other settings that can affect speed.

The best is to find out exactly what you need and disable everything else. If you don't need AF on every shutter, set AF to AE-L button. If you don't need AF.C or AF.A, switch to AF.S. If you don't need vignetting correction, turn it off. If your subject will always be in centre, set AF to centre point instead of searching all AF points..

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Is this a Pentax only thing?
Um, Pentax is not exactly famous for being super fast. Some cameras are pretty fast, but modern mirrorless cameras (no time to waste on flipping mirror) have much faster sustained fps, especially the ones compatible with UHS. For me, even the old K-01 (really slow, despite being mirrorless) is fast enough. Comes down to your needs. Usually you can compensate for slowness with some extra planning ahead of time. Like pre-focusing and disabling AF.
Nikon has two tiers, one that is fast and one that is slower but has higher "quality". Canon has one "flagship" which does a fair bit of both. Pentax at the moment is not super fast. K-3II is fastest, I think, with 8.3 fps, K-1 has 4.4 fps (6.5 in crop mode). I assume these numbers are optimal conditions, so you might not get them if you have some functions enabled or are shooting burst long time

Last edited by Na Horuk; 12-13-2017 at 06:49 PM.
12-13-2017, 07:13 PM - 1 Like   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
It could be buffer speed or card write speed. Note that even if your card has a super fast write speed (which is different from read speed), the camera itself is not superfast at writing. Many modern premium SD cards are faster than the camera can utilize. The other problem can be the camera's post processing. This PP gets applied to all jpegs, even the preview thumbnails inside raw photos. Things like Distortion correction can make this process significantly slower. I would recommend you turn off all of the jpeg corrections for maximal speed. But I guess you want to get some good jpegs alongside the raw, so you might want to only disable the especially draining ones. The latest camera generations have quite a few of these options, CA, vignetting, distortion, diffraction, tonemapping, I don't even know what else.

Your shooting might also be slowed by things like AF if you have AF set to run between every shot and you have AF priority (instead of shutter priority). Maybe there are other settings that can affect speed.

The best is to find out exactly what you need and disable everything else. If you don't need AF on every shutter, set AF to AE-L button. If you don't need AF.C or AF.A, switch to AF.S. If you don't need vignetting correction, turn it off. If your subject will always be in centre, set AF to centre point instead of searching all AF points..


Um, Pentax is not exactly famous for being super fast. Some cameras are pretty fast, but modern mirrorless cameras (no time to waste on flipping mirror) have much faster sustained fps, especially the ones compatible with UHS. For me, even the old K-01 (really slow, despite being mirrorless) is fast enough. Comes down to your needs. Usually you can compensate for slowness with some extra planning ahead of time. Like pre-focusing and disabling AF.
Nikon has two tiers, one that is fast and one that is slower but has higher "quality". Canon has one "flagship" which does a fair bit of both. Pentax at the moment is not super fast. K-3II is fastest, I think, with 8.3 fps, K-1 has 4.4 fps (6.5 in crop mode). I assume these numbers are optimal conditions, so you might not get them if you have some functions enabled or are shooting burst long time
I just did a quick comparison, this time RAW only, and only writing to one card (one card inserted even tho it's mode is actually to write a file to two cards at once), and there was still buffering issues, tho it occurred at a later time.
I'm definitely going to investigate this more, try as you suggest and get rid of all PP in camera (tho I believe I already have that done).

With the Brenizer technique you could (I did) auto focus for the subject, once you have that shot sorted you exposure lock/focus lock or toggle to MF (which is what I did), then take 50 pics or so of the surrounding area around the subject, so the other 49 shots weren't actually having to think much about things :/

I'd accept moving to Jpg if I thought this would help, because jpgs are smaller files than RAW? And therefore this issue is also related to the file sizes? I have no problem creating a User Mode for Brenizer shots if it meant I could actually fire off those 50 shots without delay (Jpg only, no PP in camera/everything off as much as possible), because using that technique with live subjects you kinda want to get the shoot over asap.

I'd test some more today but its 42 degrees outside (celcius) so I'm kinda retreating indoors now.

FWIW 50 shots is actually conservative for this style of shooting, you can double that figure easily.

Also here is the shot, my first try at Brenizer;



From what I understand better results can be had from longer focal lengths (77mm and upwards) as well as taking more shots.

Last edited by BruceBanner; 12-13-2017 at 07:20 PM.
12-13-2017, 07:45 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
FWIW 50 shots is actually conservative for this style of shooting, you can double that figure easily.
Yes, its a very demanding technique. I quickly gave up, back when I tried it. Your results seem to be pretty good so far. Good luck
12-13-2017, 07:56 PM   #8
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The K1 isn't the fastest creature on FPS if you're doing post processing in jpg and also RAW. Check out this page from the review. There are a variety of good charts showing different times for different write options and two different cards for comparison. There can be significant changes based on what combination, and doing any jpg processing should be avoided. Remember, this includes stuff like "Bright" as a mode in addition to functions like lens corrections, which I believe can really slow things down.

Pentax K-1 Review - Performance and Burst Mode | PentaxForums.com Reviews

12-13-2017, 08:15 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I never normally take RAW+, typically just RAW, I did however after taking certain advice here do so last Sunday during the wedding shoot. Numerous times I ran into the buffering issue, whereby I could not continuously take another picture till I gave the K-1 time to recover and process the shots before. Suffice to say I never ran into this issue before so I doubt I will be using RAW+ ever again.

Even with one SD card in the camera the issue still persists, I don't think my cards are the problem (Extreme Pro 95mb/sec). I just tried now with RAW+ to try a Brenizer shot, could not complete even 10-15 shots quickly before the buffering issue occurred. It's a deal breaker for sure.

Anyway, is this a thing? No one seemed to mention it to me previously that using RAW+ comes with that risk...

Yes... spamming shots is amateurish on some level, but on other levels (like making a Brenizer shot) it is absolutely critical to be able to fire off 30-40 shots in very quick succession with no lag/delay.

Is this a Pentax only thing?

TIA!

Bruce
The buffer size in raw+ is not that big, but to get the best performance make sure you're saving files to one card only, and disable distortion corrections and diffraction corrections for your JPEG files. Otherwise, this will slow things down considerably.

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12-14-2017, 12:14 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Suffice to say I never ran into this issue before so I doubt I will be using RAW+ ever again.
In most cases, RAW+ is not an issue, but RAW only does give you 3-4 more frames worth of buffer, as shown in the review link above. It isn't that RAW+ is so bad, just that RAW alone is slightly better. I usually use RAW+ for the convenience of the JPG, but whenever I need to maximize the frames shot in quick succession, I do RAW only.

Doing the Brenizer in JPG mode would probably allow you to do wit with no significant buffer delay, without distortion correction on.
12-14-2017, 01:49 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I'd accept moving to Jpg if I thought this would help, because jpgs are smaller files than RAW? And therefore this issue is also related to the file sizes?
JPEG images take up less room in the buffer, and you get a much larger burst before the frame rate drops. I know the difference is dramatic on my K-3, the K-1 RAW images are even bigger, so the difference could be even larger, assuming the same buffer size. I can buffer some twenty-odd RAW images on my K-3, I would expect the K-1 to be able to buffer at least 50 JPEGs. The actual number should be in the official specs for the K-1.

---------- Post added 12-14-17 at 01:52 PM ----------

The K-1 specs say 17 RAW or 70 JPEG at the highest frame rate before the buffer fills.
12-15-2017, 11:23 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Is this a Pentax only thing?
Other earlier higher resolution full-frame cameras had the same rate, like the Nikon D750 and D800, Canon EOS 5DS and 5D Mark III, about the same as the K-1 -- about 17 shots. The newer cameras than those have bigger buffers, significantly more for the significantly more expensive models, I think.
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