[BruceBanner]

Just starting to scratch the surface of the high levels of customisation that the K-1 (and other models no doubt) offer.

For example, I just learned today (or possible relearned, I may have set this before with the K-50 and forgot I could do this lol), that with Manual Mode I can make it such that when I change the Aperture, press Green Button, it correctly exposes with the Aperture remaining the same and just the ISO and Shutter speed varying. This suits me much better and mimics what I have to do with non A Setting K Mount lenses such as the Tak 135/2.5.

I also saw that with Av mode you can have the front dial change the ev compensation rather than do nothing, a quicker short cut than having the press the +/- ev mode first etc. Factor in the Auto Iso settings (Fast, Normal and Slow) and you get quite a bit of customisation there.

I've been aware of the Hyper Program mode (I'll call it HP for short) before, I just never found it really working to my liking, but I'm now wondering if it too can be better customised for my needs. I noticed it can be assigned to have P-Shift instead of Av + Tv etc, that and the Program Line selection, as well as Auto-Iso Min and Max settings... there might be quite a lot of options to make things work better for the user.

One thing that made me give up in HP mode in the past was when I was perhaps shooting birds in a tree, I was using f9 or something, getting those better low shutter speed shots of the bird before taking off. Anticipating that it might leave the tree soon I cranked the shutter speed up with the Tv Dial, but what happens is the aperture would fully drop to being as wide open as possible, and the ISO kept at 100. I could really have done with something that might have kept a better DoF than drop suddenly down to wide open and instead bumped to ISO up to compensate for the shift in increased shutter speeds.
In Av mode you get to set the parameters for the Auto Iso, Fast, Normal and Slow, I kinda wish you had a similar thing for Tv mode (or do we and I'm being thick?). Like in the above example, I bump the shutter speed up and instead of the aperture dropping from f9 to as wide open as possible, it also follows a similar ideology whereby Fast, Normal or Slow in this regard followed Aperture this time, perhaps not dropping as drastically down and instead bumping the ISO up to compensate.

Can any combo of settings assist in the Tv aspect of HP mode making this more likely to happen?

TIA!

Bruce

[stevebrot]

One thing that made me give up in HP mode in the past was when I was perhaps shooting birds in a tree, I was using f9 or something, getting those better low shutter speed shots of the bird before taking off. Anticipating that it might leave the tree soon I cranked the shutter speed up with the Tv Dial, but what happens is the aperture would fully drop to being as wide open as possible, and the ISO kept at 100. I could really have done with something that might have kept a better DoF than drop suddenly down to wide open and instead bumped to ISO up to compensate for the shift in increased shutter speeds.

You have experienced the evils of auto-ISO. Its priorities are not governed by the exposure program. When and how auto-ISO ramps follow different rules. The auto-ISO "sensitivity" may be set (p49 in the user guide), but just what those settings actually do has been a matter of long-standing discussion on this site and how your K-1 works in that regard may be different than with past models.*

In Av mode you get to set the parameters for the Auto Iso, Fast, Normal and Slow, I kinda wish you had a similar thing for Tv mode (or do we and I'm being thick?). Like in the above

Auto-ISO settings should be global, though auto-ISO is not. It is turned off in Sv mode (duh) as well as M, B (duh again), and X modes and always on in TAv mode. It definitely works in Tv mode. Are you referring, by any chance, to Av-shift in Hyper-Program (aperture changes in reaction to changes in shutter speed)?

Can any combo of settings assist in the Tv aspect of HP mode making this more likely to happen?

Past discussions on this topic (not really related to Hyper Program) have generally centered on a user attempting to use auto-ISO as a means to force a particular combination of shutter speed and ISO while keeping aperture constant in a manner similar to how another brand camera works. The short answer is to not do that. It does not work.

Turn off auto-ISO and be happy. For the amount of trouble involved in trying to "hack" auto-ISO to work a certain way in Tv or P modes, one could be nicely working in M mode or TAv mode.

(I am famously not a fan of auto-ISO. It is evil and a common cause of user confusion and unexpected results when it ramps unexpectedly rather than the camera following the program curve. In a previous thread, I attempted to characterize the auto-ISO ramping rules and decided they are black arts...never again.)


Steve

* On my K-3, IIRC, all that changes is the start point for the ramp. The actual "sensitivity" is always the same and is loosely related to EV in the strict sense (combination of shutter speed and aperture).

[dafbp]

One thing that made me give up in HP mode in the past was when I was perhaps shooting birds in a tree, I was using f9 or something, getting those better low shutter speed shots of the bird before taking off. Anticipating that it might leave the tree soon I cranked the shutter speed up with the Tv Dial, but what happens is the aperture would fully drop to being as wide open as possible, and the ISO kept at 100. I could really have done with something that might have kept a better DoF than drop suddenly down to wide open and instead bumped to ISO up to compensate for the shift in increased shutter speeds.

That looks a lot like the TAv mode, which I use when shooting airshows, unless I misunderstood you.
You set speed and aperture, and the camera does all the work of maintaining the "correct" exposure by adjusting the ISO. You can also limit the ISO. This for K-5 series, but I suppose every Pentax at that level or above should do it.

[pschlute]

Yes TAv mode is what you need Bruce. I use it when photographing my dogs running around in the garden No surprises with TAv. It is essentially a manual mode with auto-ISO operating.

Like Steve, I don't use auto-ISO in any other modes. I know what I am photographing and set an appropriate ISO. If I am not getting the shots I want because DOF is too thin or too wide (when in Tv mode), or shutter speed too fast or too slow (when in Av mode) then I will adjust ISO accordingly.

[bdery]

I could really have done with something that might have kept a better DoF than drop suddenly down to wide open and instead bumped to ISO up to compensate for the shift in increased shutter speeds.

What you want in this particular case is the TAv mode. Does exactly what you want. Sort of like M with auto ISO.

[BruceBanner]

You have experienced the evils of auto-ISO. Its priorities are not governed by the exposure program. When and how auto-ISO ramps follow different rules. The auto-ISO "sensitivity" may be set (p49 in the user guide), but just what those settings actually do has been a matter of long-standing discussion on this site and how your K-1 works in that regard may be different than with past models.*



Auto-ISO settings should be global, though auto-ISO is not. It is turned off in Sv mode (duh) as well as M, B (duh again), and X modes and always on in TAv mode. It definitely works in Tv mode. Are you referring, by any chance, to Av-shift in Hyper-Program (aperture changes in reaction to changes in shutter speed)?



Past discussions on this topic (not really related to Hyper Program) have generally centered on a user attempting to use auto-ISO as a means to force a particular combination of shutter speed and ISO while keeping aperture constant in a manner similar to how another brand camera works. The short answer is to not do that. It does not work.

Turn off auto-ISO and be happy. For the amount of trouble involved in trying to "hack" auto-ISO to work a certain way in Tv or P modes, one could be nicely working in M mode or TAv mode.

(I am famously not a fan of auto-ISO. It is evil and a common cause of user confusion and unexpected results when it ramps unexpectedly rather than the camera following the program curve. In a previous thread, I attempted to characterize the auto-ISO ramping rules and decided they are black arts...never again.)


Steve

* On my K-3, IIRC, all that changes is the start point for the ramp. The actual "sensitivity" is always the same and is loosely related to EV in the strict sense (combination of shutter speed and aperture).

Ok, so... you know with traditional Av mode you can set the Auto Iso Parameter's to being Fast, Normal or Slow, and what this kinda really does is determine what shutter speed the user is happy to dip down to before bumping ISO up? So like example time;

K-1 + Samyang 85/1.4

Slow 1/50th second (before Auto ISO bumps up)
Normal 1/100th second (before Auto ISO bumps up)
Fast 1/200th second (before Auto ISO bumps up)

Well... is there a kinda reverse situation for this in Tv mode? So like it might work like this;

K-1 + Samyang 85/1.4

Slow F1.4 (before Auto ISO bumps up)
Normal F2.2 (before Auto ISO bumps up)
Fast F4 (before Auto ISO bumps up)

But to my testing, changing the the Auto ISO parameters to Slow, Normal and Fast in Tv mode really doesn't result in a single difference in terms of what happens when you change shutter speeds in that mode, it won't bump the ISO up till you hit f1.4 regardless.

It appears to me that the Fast, Normal and Slow Auto ISO parameters really only affect the Av mode, or am I mistaken?

----

You could be right. I've perhaps become far too reliant on Auto-ISO for too long.

For me it all depends on what and where you're shooting. Manual mode has typically been (up till now), my landscape tripod kinda mode, i.e. I have all the time in the world to get things right, chill... no rush.
I can't imagine going fully Manual mode when shooting concerts for example, variable changing light, singers and performers with different amount of light thrown on them within split seconds of shooting... but you know... maybe I should!

I noticed however that there is an Av mode set up whereby you can have rear thumb dial is Av (dur) and front dial as ISO (I find the rear top dial pretty stiff to adjust ISO), and that might work a whole lot better with the idea of 'getting off' Auto ISO.

That looks a lot like the TAv mode, which I use when shooting airshows, unless I misunderstood you.
You set speed and aperture, and the camera does all the work of maintaining the "correct" exposure by adjusting the ISO. You can also limit the ISO. This for K-5 series, but I suppose every Pentax at that level or above should do it.

Yes TAv mode is what you need Bruce. I use it when photographing my dogs running around in the garden No surprises with TAv. It is essentially a manual mode with auto-ISO operating.

Like Steve, I don't use auto-ISO in any other modes. I know what I am photographing and set an appropriate ISO. If I am not getting the shots I want because DOF is too thin or too wide (when in Tv mode), or shutter speed too fast or too slow (when in Av mode) then I will adjust ISO accordingly.

What you want in this particular case is the TAv mode. Does exactly what you want. Sort of like M with auto ISO.

Thanks for all the feedback.

I know what TAv mode is, I used to be a TAv junkie till I stumbled upon the Av mode and the customisation of Auto ISO parameters, Fast, Slow and Normal. This replaced TAv mode as my main go to mode as I felt for 90% of the time I could concentrate on framing and DoF and get the pics done, regardless of what changing lighting conditions I met. With TAv mode (for example) I was shooting outside once, very thin DoF, 1/8000 etc, and then moved inside a darker room, and of course 1/8000th was now going to result too dark an exposure (even though I was still shooting very wide open), so I had to manually bring shutter speed down. It bothered me, blinking exposure warnings etc and just too much work for bruce to do lmao.

With the above example of a bird perhaps in a tree, shooting at f9 or f12 or something to try and capture it in all it's glory whilst its fairly motionless (low shutter speed, 1/120th etc), but now I sense it's going to leave the tree, I really want to ramp it up to 1/2000th+, but if I do that in TAv mode and stay at f9-f12 I'm going to get a high ISO, so I then need to also same time bring the aperture down slightly to try and limit noise etc.
One might argue I'd be better to be in Tv Mode the whole time, have the shutter speed at 1/120th, and control the ISO manually, if I need a greater DoF then bump ISO. As soon as I have the shots I change the shutter speed to 1/2000th and bump the ISO up further. Same difference really. There's multiple ways to do the same thing, it's just that each and every one of them involves changing two values of the exposure triangle.

Thus far I have only seen Av mode being superior to the rest of the options available because it introduces an additional level of control that the rest of the modes don't appear to utilise which is the Auto ISO Parameters of Fast, Slow and Normal, which impacts the shutter speeds one encounters before bumping ISO up, how I wish Tv mode did this too except changed what Aperture value you encountered before bumping the ISO up...

One 'cheat' I have found is to use HP mode and set the Auto ISO MIN and MAX to something more restrictive such as MIN set to 400 and MAX 3200 or 6400.

Example;

If I set my HP mode to having an ISO range of 400-3200 then I get the following exposures

1/125 f8 400
1/1000 f2.8 400

(it's early morning here so I am just pointing my K-1 with my Samyang pointing at my monitor to get these values here)

If I press my Info button I have created a Min and Max Auto ISO shortcut, quite quickly I can change that ISO MIN setting to 100 and now I get this exposure;

1/1000 f1.4 100

So perhaps leaving things in Auto ISO and do not experiment with (as Steve suggested) being in Manual ISO (as it's too much for Bruce's little mind to comprehend lul, too many variables to tinker with at once!), perhaps I can do better by assessing the light and scenario quickly, and have some HP modes assigned to the User Mode dials with various different Auto MIN and MAX Iso parameters set. If I am struggling for light (very dull day), pick a mode that has 800-6400 Auto ISO, if the weather is better 400-3200, if very bright conditions then 100-3200 etc. Then it's just about picking the right User mode and worrying about only one element of the exposure triangle rather than two (like all the suggestions above, ie Av with Manual ISO or TAv mode).

Disclosure; FYI these are just my rambling thoughts on an early morning whilst I sip my coffee =)

[stevebrot]

Ok, so... you know with traditional Av mode you can set the Auto Iso Parameter's to being Fast, Normal or Slow, and what this kinda really does is determine what shutter speed the user is happy to dip down to before bumping ISO up? So like example time;

Those settings are global (apply to all modes) and unless things are different on the K-1, that is how one would expect that it works, but it probably doesn't.

I know what TAv mode is, I used to be a TAv junkie till I stumbled upon the Av mode and the customisation of Auto ISO parameters, Fast, Slow and Normal.

Then you have stumbled down the wrong path because, as you discovered, it does not work consistently.

There's multiple ways to do the same thing, it's just that each and every one of them involves changing two values of the exposure triangle.

Yes, there is no way to have ISO ramp automatically and predictably outside of TAv. That is why M mode is so powerful. Based on your comments above, you already know what you want. Why let the camera screw up your intents?

One other thing...there are some exposure situations where there is no good solution, where the LV of desirable settings is far less or far greater than the actual light from the subject. One cannot shoot daytime shade at f/11, 1/2000s and ISO 400.


Steve

[pschlute]

With TAv mode (for example) I was shooting outside once, very thin DoF, 1/8000 etc, and then moved inside a darker room, and of course 1/8000th was now going to result too dark an exposure (even though I was still shooting very wide open), so I had to manually bring shutter speed down. It bothered me, blinking exposure warnings etc and just too much work for bruce to do lmao.

Really? I would be twirling the Tv/Av dials down before I crossed the threshold

Disclosure; FYI these are just my rambling thoughts on an early morning whilst I sip my coffee =)

Bruce , I admire your delving into the deeper recesses of the many wonders the developers of the K1 have brought to us. But I could not work with your approach. I was brought up on a manual film camera that required the photographer to change Tv and Av to get the green exposure light in the centre of the meter (even then you had to make adjustments as CW metering was not as reliable as modern maxtrix for many scenes).

The further you move away from controlling the three points of the exposure triangle yourself, the more scope there is for confusion. Just my humble opinion.

[cmohr]

All my HP User modes are mainly based on Av, It's my preferred way of thinking about my photos, mainly what DoF I am getting. I have the rear dial set to Aperture control, And I have Auto ISO OFF, and have the front dial set to scroll ISO. Shutterspeed is always controlled by either, IF I want to shoot at f2.8 I do, and I adust ISO up from 100 if my Shutterspeed is too low. If I'm doing wildlife BIF shots ect, DoF is still how I think about my photo, is having enough to capture a whole bird in focus, and then I control the ISO myself to get the shutterspeed up to an acceptable speed to not have blurr in the shot, but, not too much high ISO noise as well. I have always thought in terms of aperture ?DoF being a focus for my kind of shooting, so my mine is programmed this way from way way back in the long ago, K1000 days. Aperture controls shutterspeed, and ISO in digital cameras lets us take control over the amount of difference it makes.

So basically,

Av is the mode, control, by only needing to either scroll the aperture on the rear dial, and or, the ISO on the front dial. In essence, I think of it just as Hyper Manual, as I am making the big decisions, and letting the camera just match the correct exposure for those choices. ,

[BruceBanner]

Really? I would be twirling the Tv/Av dials down before I crossed the threshold



Bruce , I admire your delving into the deeper recesses of the many wonders the developers of the K1 have brought to us. But I could not work with your approach. I was brought up on a manual film camera that required the photographer to change Tv and Av to get the green exposure light in the centre of the meter (even then you had to make adjustments as CW metering was not as reliable as modern maxtrix for many scenes).

The further you move away from controlling the three points of the exposure triangle yourself, the more scope there is for confusion. Just my humble opinion.

Exactly pschlute! Now you understand my level of laziness! Now do you understand what you're dealing with!

But in all seriousness, I do control all three levels, but seldom, more for those moments where I have time, it's all about the moment you're in. Landscape work is Manual, shooting my Takumar 135/2.5 is Manual (if I want to get out of f2.5 that is). But I truly feel by focusing on one aspect of the exposure triangle I can concentrate better, I am almost always MF these days as well, that leaves composition, focusing and ev compensation as well to contend with, thinking about two corners of the exposure triangle (all the time) is just stretching my comfort zone.
Will I adapt? Or will my work just suffer? Will I be happier shooter sticking to controlling one exposure dynamic at a time, and can I just make it behave better for my (potential) scenarios? That's what I'm currently exploring.
It's doesn't work all the time does it? Hence I wouldn't be posting here. And that's what this is really all about, the specific times of moving from one shooting scenario to another. Av mode can suit me fine for an entire wedding shoot, or even shooting a concert, but perhaps not when a bird is in a tree then takes off lol. Or perhaps being on a bushwalk, taking pics of fam and then coming to a waterfall and wanting to just do some cooler shots without tripodding such as slowing shutter speeds right down (as comfortable as handheld can go). It appears to me that in any situation whereby you're moving in and out of a different shooting requirement then you might need to control two corners of the exposure triangle, just no getting round it. HP mode feels like hybrid, whereby its still the user controlling one element of the triangle (without actually changing dial mode etc), just exploring here if there are better ways to manage it's response.

All my HP User modes are mainly based on Av, It's my preferred way of thinking about my photos, mainly what DoF I am getting. I have the rear dial set to Aperture control, And I have Auto ISO OFF, and have the front dial set to scroll ISO. Shutterspeed is always controlled by either, IF I want to shoot at f2.8 I do, and I adust ISO up from 100 if my Shutterspeed is too low. If I'm doing wildlife BIF shots ect, DoF is still how I think about my photo, is having enough to capture a whole bird in focus, and then I control the ISO myself to get the shutterspeed up to an acceptable speed to not have blurr in the shot, but, not too much high ISO noise as well. I have always thought in terms of aperture ?DoF being a focus for my kind of shooting, so my mine is programmed this way from way way back in the long ago, K1000 days. Aperture controls shutterspeed, and ISO in digital cameras lets us take control over the amount of difference it makes.

So basically,

Av is the mode, control, by only needing to either scroll the aperture on the rear dial, and or, the ISO on the front dial. In essence, I think of it just as Hyper Manual, as I am making the big decisions, and letting the camera just match the correct exposure for those choices. ,

Ah yes, I came across this mode/combo the other night. It's neat that you can still have Auto-ISO as well (by the single push of the green button), but then as soon as you rotate the dial you get manual control over ISO. This feels like an alternative TAv mode in the way you describe it, swapping the Auto ISO unpredictability instead with the shutter speed being what is automatically controlled, and this may lead to fewer surprises.
I've also been talking quite a bit about flashes (in other threads) and the problems I'm encountering with the V6ii and RF60X units I've recently acquired, Av mode is not having a good time with it at all, whereas things appear to be behaving themselves in Manual mode just fine. I'm curious now if it's the dreaded Auto ISO causing the problems, perhaps this/your Av approach you have would also work better with flash use! (I mean there has to be something in Av mode that is causing the flashes to do weird banding effects and what not...)


Your proposal/method, it still feels like you're still controlling two elements of the exposure triangle, just a different angle or approach. It could be that when you get proficient in it it feels more and more like just one control (aperture) because you are able to quite quickly figure out the available light, the lens you have attached and bump the ISO to a safe place straight away and then just kinda leave it there (for awhile).

"Ahh... it's a beautiful bright sunny day, I think ISO 100 or 200 will be fine today"

"Hmm... it's a bit dull today, best to shoot at ISO 400"

"That birds in far too much shade, ISO 800 it is"

etc.

What I have noticed from my initial quick play with that Av mode setup you have is that if you have things set on Auto-ISO, and say its giving 400 as a read out... but you're not happy enough with the shutter speed, if you scroll the front dial and get off Auto-ISO and back to manual controlling the ISO's next step from touching the dial is not back to 100 but actually 800. That's excellent, because that makes things a lot more fluid, I could still see me shooting with Auto-ISO and controlling the Parameters Fast, Normal and Slow the way I like but now I can quickly adjust if there is something a miss, possibly a single wheel click or two!
I can't help feeling this mode might be what I am really after. The problem with Hyper Program is as I have pointed out, as soon as you touch the shutter speed the apertures can just drop suddenly from f2.8 to f1.4 etc, just so that it can preserve it's precious 100 ISO. The Auto-ISO Parameters Fast, Slow and Normal maybe global but it appears to me they are strictly of use for Av mode and minimum shutter speeds encountered. They have no use at all when in Tv mode.

So I thank you for bringing this Av/ISO mode combo to the forefront, I think it's something I will experiment with over the next week or so. PS I highlighted in bold passages you wrote whereby I feel very similar

EDIT: Oh except the 'K1000 days', I missed out on the whole film era, I'm pretty new to all this. Oh and the 'Hyper Manual', I was thinking Hybrid Av? Or Hyper Program v2.1c lol