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10-26-2019, 03:55 AM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
hence the question why should I buy that expensive system if its max resolution is compromised most of the time?
In my experience hand-held shots with the K1 do not display shutter shock, at least with the lenses I own. Perhaps my grip dampens the affect sufficiently that it does not notice.

The only time I do notice it is when using a long footed-lens on a tripod. The resonance set off by the shutter will induce shutter shock blur in the 1/60-1/200 range. In these cases I use the ES to eliminate it.


Last edited by pschlute; 10-26-2019 at 04:54 AM.
10-26-2019, 06:32 AM - 5 Likes   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
All high resolution Full Frame and MF cameras have their effective resolution drop around some of the most usefull shutter speeds, such as 1/50th, 1/100th, up to 1/200th, hence the question why should I buy that expensive system if its max resolution is compromised most of the time?
Hmm... Those tests seem to have use a very lightweight tripods at maximum extension. By and large, shutter shock is solvable but it does require more attention to how the camera is mounted.

The actual question may be why should I buy that expensive system if I'm unwilling to get a decent tripod?


Leaf shutters are a solution but only if the shutter is mounted inside the lens at the same place as the aperture. Putting a leaf shutter in front of the lens would lead to severe vignetting at the highest shutter speeds because the shutter speed varies over the aperture (a leaf shutter spends the most time open in the center and the least time open at the edges).
10-26-2019, 07:02 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The actual question may be why should I buy that expensive system if I'm unwilling to get a decent tripod?
While I agree with your statement generally, even the sturdiest tripod will not eliminate it.

I use a Gitzo GT3532 (rated 21kg) and GH3382QD head (rated 18kg). Stick a long footed lens on that and shutter shock will still be evident. Bolt that same lens to a workbench and shutter shock is no more. It is all about resonance. The whole apparatus acts like a tuning fork. Put the camera in LV zoomed 100% and very very gently tap the lens or camera and you can see it.
10-26-2019, 07:22 AM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
While I agree with your statement generally, even the sturdiest tripod will not eliminate it.

I use a Gitzo GT3532 (rated 21kg) and GH3382QD head (rated 18kg). Stick a long footed lens on that and shutter shock will still be evident. Bolt that same lens to a workbench and shutter shock is no more. It is all about resonance. The whole apparatus acts like a tuning fork. Put the camera in LV zoomed 100% and very very gently tap the lens or camera and you can see it.
True. Add in ground conditions, extendable zoom lenses, portrait v landscape orientation etc. they all make for the problem to show up (differently).

The only lens I really see shutter shock is with my FA43. Putting different masses on the hotshoe and/or in the tripod screw changes the resonance, not surprisingly. However, it's a little perverse weighing the tiny 43mm down to remove the problem As a consequence this lens doesn't get use it should.

In the age of charts and pixel peeping shutter shock I've long been inclined to suspect that lens reviews across all brands are likely influenced by shutter shock. Any tests, using mechanical shutters, have to ensure that it's not happening as the reviewer moves in/out of the problem range - change shutter speed to control aperture and bingo they've arrived in shutter shock zone and the results start to drop off. As every lens/camera/tripod etc is different, how can you hope to maintain consistency ?

10-26-2019, 07:26 AM   #20
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I wasn't specifically refering to shutter shock of the K1, otherwise I'd have posted in the K1 section. What I can see is that all cameras have this limitation, which kinda repel from spending big dollars on a higher resolution system. For instance, the low resolution FF models (think 24Mpixels instead of 42+Mpixels) cost 30% less. Around 1/100th s. shutter speeds, some high resolution FF models show 30% drop in resolution, basically no better than the cheaper model. As a camera user, if I use the camera often at shutter speeds around 1/100th s. , I'm better off buy the lower resolution camera model that costs 30% less.
10-26-2019, 07:34 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
In the age of charts and pixel peeping shutter shock I've long been inclined to suspect that lens reviews across all brands are likely influenced by shutter shock. Any tests, using mechanical shutters, have to ensure that it's not happening as the reviewer moves in/out of the problem range - change shutter speed to control aperture and bingo they've arrived in shutter shock zone and the results start to drop off. As every lens/camera/tripod etc is different, how can you hope to maintain consistency ?
I suspect reviewers use mirror lock-up with timer or remote, EFCS for full electronic shutter where available. They could also use test chart lighting that's bright enough to require reasonably fast shutter speed (say, < 1/200s) - or dim lighting requiring long shutter speeds - at all apertures, thus avoiding that shutter shock zone. I'm not certain they do all or any of this, but you'd hope they would take some precautions...
10-26-2019, 07:50 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
While I agree with your statement generally, even the sturdiest tripod will not eliminate it.

I use a Gitzo GT3532 (rated 21kg) and GH3382QD head (rated 18kg). Stick a long footed lens on that and shutter shock will still be evident. Bolt that same lens to a workbench and shutter shock is no more. It is all about resonance. The whole apparatus acts like a tuning fork. Put the camera in LV zoomed 100% and very very gently tap the lens or camera and you can see it.
That's quite true but the magnitude of the effect can be reduced by:

1) Doubling the stiffness of the tripod (and head) will reduce the amplitude of the shutter shock by half and make the worst-case shutter speed about 40% faster.

2) Doubling the inertia (mass) of the camera-lens combination will reduce the amplitude of the shutter shock by half and make the worst-case shutter speed about 40% slower.


(Note: Doubling the focal length will double the shutter shock.)
10-26-2019, 07:56 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I suspect reviewers use mirror lock-up with timer or remote, EFCS for full electronic shutter where available. They could also use test chart lighting that's bright enough to require reasonably fast shutter speed (say, < 1/200s) - or dim lighting requiring long shutter speeds - at all apertures, thus avoiding that shutter shock zone. I'm not certain they do all or any of this, but you'd hope they would take some precautions...
... yes Mike, but I bet some don't, thus more fog and uncertainty.

I'm not sure MUP and remote makes a difference to the shutter shock - it hasn't to me.

10-26-2019, 08:04 AM   #24
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I wonder if desire for high flash synch speeds is the deep down cause of this. Slowing curtain travel times down from 3.5ms to 12 ms would have to reduce vibration caused when the curtains are stopped at the end of the shutter cycle. Of course nobody wants to have a 1/60 sec flash synch so you would have to use high speed synch for everything. Slowing down the first curtain generates a vibration or resonance of some sort that can affect the whole system. Not having a curtain brake would allow the shutter blades to bounce back into the picture area causing a dark or light stripe on one edge of the picture depending on whether it is the first or second curtain bouncing. I wonder what installing a shutter from an LX would look like, hmmmmm.
10-26-2019, 08:09 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I wasn't specifically refering to shutter shock of the K1, otherwise I'd have posted in the K1 section. What I can see is that all cameras have this limitation, which kinda repel from spending big dollars on a higher resolution system. For instance, the low resolution FF models (think 24Mpixels instead of 42+Mpixels) cost 30% less. Around 1/100th s. shutter speeds, some high resolution FF models show 30% drop in resolution, basically no better than the cheaper model. As a camera user, if I use the camera often at shutter speeds around 1/100th s. , I'm better off buy the lower resolution camera model that costs 30% less.
It's not a problem with the cameras, it's a problem with how they are used -- an operator error more so than a design flaw.

As in almost every human endeavor, getting a higher level of performance requires better technique. A high-resolution large sensor camera can easily take low-resolution pictures if it's not handled correctly. But if it is handled correctly, the images are stunning compared to those taken with lower-resolution, smaller format cameras.

That said, it's a personal choice for how much money, time, and care each photographer is willing to invest and whether the kinds of images they want to make really benefit from the IQ of high resolution FF or MF digital cameras. Some genres/styles of photography need nothing more than a smart phone to make beautiful, meaningful images. But other genres/styles really do require better gear (and better technique) to get the best possible image.
10-26-2019, 08:10 AM   #26
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In a DSLR, I would think the mirror vibration would be the major contributor since the mirror has much more mass than the shutter. Once the mirror starts a shock wave, the shutter determines how long that vibration would affect the exposed shot, so it would be an interaction of the two (plus some minor vibration due to the shutter itself).

Leaf shutters which are placed in the lens near the iris position produce less vibration (than a linear shutter) since the motion is rotary rather than linear (up/down or sideways), but they are a moot point in most cases unless the lens/camera combination was designed for a leaf shutter to begin with.

There are ways to deal with most mirror/shutter induced vibrations which brings it back to the point photoptimist made, it's a matter of operator technique and experience more than one of the camera itself.

Last edited by Bob 256; 10-26-2019 at 08:16 AM.
10-26-2019, 08:21 AM   #27
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Does IBIS help? In a tripod it is usually better to have it off but could it help at these speeds?
10-26-2019, 08:58 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
I'm not sure MUP and remote makes a difference to the shutter shock - it hasn't to me
MUP will make no difference to shutter shock, because the latter is caused by the shutter, not the mirror.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
In a DSLR, I would think the mirror vibration would be the major contributor since the mirror has much more mass than the shutter. Once the mirror starts a shock wave, the shutter determines how long that vibration would affect the exposed shot, so it would be an interaction of the two (plus some minor vibration due to the shutter itself).
But the practical experience of anyone who has looked at this, myself included, is that MUP makes zero difference to the result. The inference can only be that any "shock" is being caused by the shutter alone.

---------- Post added 10-26-19 at 05:10 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
Does IBIS help? In a tripod it is usually better to have it off but could it help at these speeds?
You would think that it would, but my experience is that it does not. Perhaps IBIS and a perfectly still camera are just incompatible (hence the advice to turn it off). Or perhaps the fact that the "instability" occurs half way through the process ...ie after the FC has finished its travel.
10-26-2019, 09:22 AM   #29
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Back in the good old days the front of the lens shutter was often the lens cap. Those old tintype and daguerreotype plates were slow.
10-26-2019, 10:02 AM - 2 Likes   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
Does IBIS help? In a tripod it is usually better to have it off but could it help at these speeds?
It can help a lot or it can be an absolute disaster.

The IBIS system has a natural operating frequency defined by the sampling rates of the IBIS sensor, latency of the software that computes the corrections, and electromechanical lags in the IBIS platform.

When the IBIS system pushes on the sensor in one direction, the counter-reaction forces push the camera body in the opposite direction. The IBIS system then measures that body motion, computes the correction, and creates a counter-counter motion. Under most conditions, this feedback loop stabilizes the oscillation. However, if the natural operating frequency of the SR system happens to be an odd multiple of the natural resonant frequency of the tripod-head-camera-lens system, then the oscillations grow until the sensor is bouncing back and forth and all hell will break loose.

It's all very sensitive to the exact combinations of tripod, head, lens, and how the camera is mounted.

If you want to test it, put the camera on the tripod, put it in live view mode with SR on, zoom in on live image to the maximum, and watch what happens if you lightly tap the end of the lens. If the image quickly stabilizes, that's good. If it seems to vibrate for a long time, that's not good. If it shakes violently and sounds like a swarm of angry hornets, TURN IT OFF!
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