Shutter shock format dilemma

biz-engineer · 10-25-2019, 10:58 PM

I've found this interesting blog (not wanting to advertise this site), yet interesting for the shutter shock tests results of various brands of cameras and models.
Sony a7RIII and a7RIV shutter shock
Shutter shock and the Nikon Z7
Nikon D850 shutter shock with Otus 85/1.4
Fujifilm GFX 50S shutter shock
All high resolution Full Frame and MF cameras have their effective resolution drop around some of the most usefull shutter speeds, such as 1/50th, 1/100th, up to 1/200th, hence the question why should I buy that expensive system if its max resolution is compromised most of the time?

Of course, most cameras now offer electronic shutter to eliminate the effects of shutter shock, and introduce rolling shutter effect.
On high resolution sensor, the best in class electronic shutter is as fast as a whooping 1/15th of a sec., not really fast enough when compared to 1/100th s.
There's quite a big gap between 1/15th s. and 1/200th shutter speeds, if the subject requires 1/100th (e.g pictures of people), that's the dilemma.
In that case, I'd be better off using a camera format such as apsc camera having a smaller light weight shutter and a faster lens (larger aperture) => faster shutter speed.
Or my only to get tack sharp images at 1/100th s. on full frame or medium format is to illuminate the subject with a strobe, duhh!

swanlefitte · 10-25-2019, 11:17 PM

Interesting, what about leaf shutters?

biz-engineer · 10-25-2019, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by swanlefitte

Interesting, what about leaf shutters?

Can I screw on a leaf shutter (like a polar filter) in front of my lenses?

swanlefitte · 10-25-2019, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Can I screw on a leaf shutter (like a polar filter) in front of my lenses?

Never had one. I thought a leaf shutter was in the lens and thus the whole vibrations system is different.

biz-engineer · 10-25-2019, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by swanlefitte

Never had one. I thought a leaf shutter was in the lens and thus the whole vibrations system is different.

Yep. It's usually part of the lens itself. Why no one invented a screw on leaf shutter? Would it be possible to use the lens iris itself as shutter (by controlled by firmware) when the shutter speed is slower than 1/200th s. ?

swanlefitte · 10-25-2019, 11:51 PM

Your subject is more about diminished returns and limitations but I find the alternative shutter aspect more interesting. I initially thought using a 6x7 leaf shutter lens with adapter might overcome the dilemma and it might. Was hoping for info that direction. Would be interesting if that made shutter shock higher or lower frequency.

**StiffLegged** · 10-26-2019, 12:54 AM

An add-on leaf shutter is going to be mighty big to fit over some of these larger format lenses. A famous photographer once suggested the best tripod was a cubic yard of concrete with a 3/8” screw inset - d’you think he was on to something?

**BigMackCam** · 10-26-2019, 02:03 AM - **2 Likes**

It's not just an issue with FF and medium format. Any camera with a mechanical shutter is potentially susceptible, and the higher the resolution of the sensor, the more noticeable the effect when pixel peeping.

I've had reproducable instances of shutter shock with the K-3 and certain lenses (see one such example HERE).

It's more apparent with certain camera and lens combos (with zooms, at certain focal length settings) when shooting at or close to certain shutter speeds. I suspect it has something to do with lens dimensions and weight distribution combined with the movement of the shutter - hence why, in the example I linked to above, it only happened with the zoom lens set to the wide end.

It's just a quirk to be aware of and work around. Most of the time, it's only going to be an issue if you look for it. Otherwise, it'll probably be demonstrable only when pixel peeping, or viewing large prints at very close range (in both cases, not typical viewing conditions) - and especially with photographs of resolution test charts

**kiwi_jono** · 10-26-2019, 02:08 AM

Mike, beat me to it - its a potential issue for any camera with regular shutter block (i.e. not leaf or electronic shutter). That said it generally not noticeable with APS-C cameras because the shutters are smaller and have less mass.
It also depends on mass and balance of lenses attached to the camera - correctly me if wrong but presumably the lens mass can dampen down the shutter shock vibration.

stevebrot · 10-26-2019, 02:13 AM

I read the test details from one of those links and based on the description believe that his findings are sketchy. Example:

Quote:

With the lens wide open, I focused as best I could on the razor blade, which was pretty sloppy, both because it’s hard for humans to focus on that edge, and the image was jiggling around every time I twisted the focusing ring. I figured it wouldn’t make much difference, since I was just going to look for changes.

Hmmmm...if the support is inadequate for focusing a 250mm lens at 10 feet, how does one expect to NOT find significant shutter shock? Your choice to not mention the blogger by name is wise.

Steve

Ole · 10-26-2019, 02:17 AM

The Pentax Q has leaf shutter lenses

Now we just need a 50MP - 100MP model in the Q line-up...

No, seriously, I had hoped to see a MF camera with leaf shutter lenses from Fuji or Hasselblad. That hasn't happened, perhaps that could be a niche for Pentax?

I tested my K-1 a while back just by eye-balling the results. My test showed that speeds from 1/90s to 1/180s are to be avoided. I suspect that there could be sample variations.

The test came about because I was baffled that 70% of my images from a trip to Lofoten had to be discarded due to being unsharp. It turned out that they were all shot at 1/125s.

stevebrot · 10-26-2019, 02:21 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by kiwi_jono

presumably the lens mass can dampen down the shutter shock vibration

Alternatively, structural resonance within a complex zoom may allow a vibration to linger longer and have a stronger effect than might otherwise be present with the impact on system performance being a combination of movement of optical elements individually combining with gross camera movement.

Steve

**BigMackCam** · 10-26-2019, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by Ole

I had hoped to see a MF camera with leaf shutter lenses from Fuji or Hasselblad. That hasn't happened, perhaps that could be a niche for Pentax?

Hasselblad's X1D series use leaf shutter lenses, Ole. Of course, nothing's perfect - they come with their own limitations:

https://photographylife.com/reviews/hasselblad-x1d-50c/4

Paul the Sunman · 10-26-2019, 02:57 AM

I had shutter shock with the K1+ DFA 28-105 when I first got them, affecting many shots between 1/100 and 1/200 sec. For a long while I avoided those speeds, especially with a light lens. These days I don't bother, and haven't seen a recurrence. Has the shutter "warn itself in"? I don't know for sure, but it seems so.

**BigMackCam** · 10-26-2019, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by Paul the Sunman

I had shutter shock with the K1+ DFA 28-105 when I first got them, affecting many shots between 1/100 and 1/200 sec. For a long while I avoided those speeds, especially with a light lens. These days I don't bother, and haven't seen a recurrence. Has the shutter "warn itself in"? I don't know for sure, but it seems so.

I can believe it might be possible for even extremely minor wear in the shutter mechanism and/or the lens components to modify how and when shutter movement has an impact...

10-25-2019, 10:58 PM	#1
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Shutter shock format dilemma I've found this interesting blog (not wanting to advertise this site), yet interesting for the shutter shock tests results of various brands of cameras and models. Sony a7RIII and a7RIV shutter shock Shutter shock and the Nikon Z7 Nikon D850 shutter shock with Otus 85/1.4 Fujifilm GFX 50S shutter shock All high resolution Full Frame and MF cameras have their effective resolution drop around some of the most usefull shutter speeds, such as 1/50th, 1/100th, up to 1/200th, hence the question why should I buy that expensive system if its max resolution is compromised most of the time? Of course, most cameras now offer electronic shutter to eliminate the effects of shutter shock, and introduce rolling shutter effect. On high resolution sensor, the best in class electronic shutter is as fast as a whooping 1/15th of a sec., not really fast enough when compared to 1/100th s. There's quite a big gap between 1/15th s. and 1/200th shutter speeds, if the subject requires 1/100th (e.g pictures of people), that's the dilemma. In that case, I'd be better off using a camera format such as apsc camera having a smaller light weight shutter and a faster lens (larger aperture) => faster shutter speed. Or my only to get tack sharp images at 1/100th s. on full frame or medium format is to illuminate the subject with a strobe, duhh!

10-26-2019, 02:03 AM - 2 Likes	#8
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	It's not just an issue with FF and medium format. Any camera with a mechanical shutter is potentially susceptible, and the higher the resolution of the sensor, the more noticeable the effect when pixel peeping. I've had reproducable instances of shutter shock with the K-3 and certain lenses (see one such example HERE). It's more apparent with certain camera and lens combos (with zooms, at certain focal length settings) when shooting at or close to certain shutter speeds. I suspect it has something to do with lens dimensions and weight distribution combined with the movement of the shutter - hence why, in the example I linked to above, it only happened with the zoom lens set to the wide end. It's just a quirk to be aware of and work around. Most of the time, it's only going to be an issue if you look for it. Otherwise, it'll probably be demonstrable only when pixel peeping, or viewing large prints at very close range (in both cases, not typical viewing conditions) - and especially with photographs of resolution test charts Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-26-2019 at 02:30 AM.

10-26-2019, 02:55 AM	#13
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by Ole I had hoped to see a MF camera with leaf shutter lenses from Fuji or Hasselblad. That hasn't happened, perhaps that could be a niche for Pentax? Hasselblad's X1D series use leaf shutter lenses, Ole. Of course, nothing's perfect - they come with their own limitations: https://photographylife.com/reviews/hasselblad-x1d-50c/4

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10-25-2019, 11:17 PM	#2
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	Interesting, what about leaf shutters?

10-25-2019, 11:32 PM	#3
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231 Original Poster	Originally posted by swanlefitte Interesting, what about leaf shutters? Can I screw on a leaf shutter (like a polar filter) in front of my lenses?

10-25-2019, 11:37 PM	#4
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	Originally posted by biz-engineer Can I screw on a leaf shutter (like a polar filter) in front of my lenses? Never had one. I thought a leaf shutter was in the lens and thus the whole vibrations system is different.

10-25-2019, 11:41 PM	#5
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231 Original Poster	Originally posted by swanlefitte Never had one. I thought a leaf shutter was in the lens and thus the whole vibrations system is different. Yep. It's usually part of the lens itself. Why no one invented a screw on leaf shutter? Would it be possible to use the lens iris itself as shutter (by controlled by firmware) when the shutter speed is slower than 1/200th s. ?

10-25-2019, 11:51 PM	#6
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	Your subject is more about diminished returns and limitations but I find the alternative shutter aspect more interesting. I initially thought using a 6x7 leaf shutter lens with adapter might overcome the dilemma and it might. Was hoping for info that direction. Would be interesting if that made shutter shock higher or lower frequency.

10-26-2019, 12:54 AM	#7
StiffLegged Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2018 Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,616	An add-on leaf shutter is going to be mighty big to fit over some of these larger format lenses. A famous photographer once suggested the best tripod was a cubic yard of concrete with a 3/8” screw inset - d’you think he was on to something?

10-26-2019, 02:08 AM	#9
kiwi_jono Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,437	Mike, beat me to it - its a potential issue for any camera with regular shutter block (i.e. not leaf or electronic shutter). That said it generally not noticeable with APS-C cameras because the shutters are smaller and have less mass. It also depends on mass and balance of lenses attached to the camera - correctly me if wrong but presumably the lens mass can dampen down the shutter shock vibration.

10-26-2019, 02:13 AM	#10
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	I read the test details from one of those links and based on the description believe that his findings are sketchy. Example: Quote: With the lens wide open, I focused as best I could on the razor blade, which was pretty sloppy, both because it’s hard for humans to focus on that edge, and the image was jiggling around every time I twisted the focusing ring. I figured it wouldn’t make much difference, since I was just going to look for changes. Hmmmm...if the support is inadequate for focusing a 250mm lens at 10 feet, how does one expect to NOT find significant shutter shock? Your choice to not mention the blogger by name is wise. Steve

10-26-2019, 02:17 AM	#11
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	The Pentax Q has leaf shutter lenses Now we just need a 50MP - 100MP model in the Q line-up... No, seriously, I had hoped to see a MF camera with leaf shutter lenses from Fuji or Hasselblad. That hasn't happened, perhaps that could be a niche for Pentax? I tested my K-1 a while back just by eye-balling the results. My test showed that speeds from 1/90s to 1/180s are to be avoided. I suspect that there could be sample variations. The test came about because I was baffled that 70% of my images from a trip to Lofoten had to be discarded due to being unsharp. It turned out that they were all shot at 1/125s.

10-26-2019, 02:21 AM - 1 Like	#12
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by kiwi_jono presumably the lens mass can dampen down the shutter shock vibration Alternatively, structural resonance within a complex zoom may allow a vibration to linger longer and have a stronger effect than might otherwise be present with the impact on system performance being a combination of movement of optical elements individually combining with gross camera movement. Steve

10-26-2019, 02:57 AM	#14
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,843	I had shutter shock with the K1+ DFA 28-105 when I first got them, affecting many shots between 1/100 and 1/200 sec. For a long while I avoided those speeds, especially with a light lens. These days I don't bother, and haven't seen a recurrence. Has the shutter "warn itself in"? I don't know for sure, but it seems so.

10-26-2019, 03:17 AM	#15
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by Paul the Sunman I had shutter shock with the K1+ DFA 28-105 when I first got them, affecting many shots between 1/100 and 1/200 sec. For a long while I avoided those speeds, especially with a light lens. These days I don't bother, and haven't seen a recurrence. Has the shutter "warn itself in"? I don't know for sure, but it seems so. I can believe it might be possible for even extremely minor wear in the shutter mechanism and/or the lens components to modify how and when shutter movement has an impact...