Something I've always been wondering about...

bdery · 11-28-2008, 06:27 AM

This concerns Pentax and all brands, really.

Built-in flashes usually have a reach of about 3-5 meters in most situations. Yet when used in auto modes, those flashes will fire even if you're hundreds of meters from your subject (you can see that in stadiums...) Why isn't there a line of code in the programming to disable the flash is the measured focus distance is greater than the flash's reach?

I'm not talking about external flashes, just the built-in ones, that should be well documented by the manufacturer. It seems it would save many a picture to beginners.

In the same line of thought, do all these auto-mode users really think that their flash will light up a whole stadium? Or a city? I was at the top of the Empire State Building some weeks ago, and a fellow with a pocket camera was frustrated with his camera, held at arm's length, with no viewfinder, and a built-in flash. The city looked dark and blurry, he said... I didn't even bother, maybe I should have.

ftpaddict · 11-28-2008, 06:41 AM

That's a very good question, actually. I've wondered about that myself many times. P&S and DSLR models behave the same. If I can find a dodgy reason as to why a P&S's flash will fire whatever the reason, I'm pretty sure a DSLR with its fancy metering can tell when there's no use triggering it.

ukbluetooth · 11-28-2008, 07:04 AM

So true - it is really annoying watching all those flashes firing continuously and uselessly.

I recently observed a girl taking flash photographs of an eclipsing moon.

Livewireshock · 11-28-2008, 07:35 AM

Basically it comes down to the fact that the camera is dumb. I mean in that it can not decipher what you intend to take a picture of. So while the camera is pointing mostly out into space in a stadium, the sensors are concentrating on the few people seated in the row in front of the picture takers, setting the flash off.

It is easier for camera makers to put in small writing somewhere in the bowels of the instruction manual to physically make the change rather than having a sensor that can read the void in space.

I have heard of some P&S cameras that have this void sensing feature if you selected it, but let us be honest, most P&S shooters leave their cameras or mobiles set totally on Auto. Thumb in bum, mind in neutral scenario.

BBear · 11-28-2008, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Livewireshock

I mean in that it can not decipher what you intend to take a picture of.

i understand the above, but if the focus is BEYOND the flash range, why still shoot it? i think that was the original question, and i think a very good one.

Mark2100 · 11-28-2008, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by BBear

i understand the above, but if the focus is BEYOND the flash range, why still shoot it? i think that was the original question, and i think a very good one.

I wouldn't doubt that a p&s infinity focus starts at about ten feet.

vizjerei · 11-28-2008, 09:19 AM

Well that's why people pay us to take pictures, right? :P

bdery · 11-28-2008, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Mark2100

I wouldn't doubt that a p&s infinity focus starts at about ten feet.

My Canon S2 started "infinity" beyond 5 meters. And in any case, the flash on these cameras won't reach 10 feet. It could be pretty easy to turn it off if the camera was focused at infinity, that would be a start.

An eclipse with flash... there are SO many ways this is wrong, I don't even know where to start.

Quote:

Well that's why people pay us to take pictures, right? :P

Who's getting paid? :P

Wulifou · 11-28-2008, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by bdery

The city looked dark and blurry, he said... I didn't even bother, maybe I should have.

Well, I did bother several times, tried to explain and got edifying answers : a particular example I remember quite well, since it comes from a member of my family ... shame on us

"no, impossible. My camera is set to night-program. So if it decides to fire the flash, there must be a good reason."

I tend to believe that even if the cameras were smart enough to not fire flash if focus is set beyond a couple of feet (or meter over here), people would take out the manual for the first time, just to check how they can force the flash to fire anyway .....

**Kerrowdown** · 11-28-2008, 12:37 PM

Wot you mean your built in flash don't light up the whole stadium, wot like mine does.

aleonx3 · 11-28-2008, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by vizjerei

Well that's why people pay us to take pictures, right? :P

+1. very true - camera is only a tool, it can not take pictures by itself and certainly can not cover all the bases. The fact the auto-flash is triggered because the metering mechanism tells the camera that it is underexposured. The flash firing was not meant to be hitting the distance point beyond the 3 metre mark, it is also a way to trigger the flash mode setting such as 1/60 f2.8 or f4.0 (which also means the camera is saying "I give up, just give flash setting it should be good"). Also, if one uses the manual mode instead of the auto (or P) mode, I think the flash will not pop up automatically.

procyon · 11-28-2008, 01:59 PM

I sometimes feel sorry for those people with their compacts trying to light up stadiums or huge cityscapes. But the most depressing sight is seeing someone shooting with flash through a window ..... the result is of course complete garbage, even if there actually was enough light to get something, a bit blurry or not.

George Lama · 11-28-2008, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Wulifou

"no, impossible. My camera is set to night-program. So if it decides to fire the flash, there must be a good reason."

Priceless...

cpopham · 11-28-2008, 11:00 PM

Consider the bizzare possibility that you might have a person or object in the foreground which you want fill light for, but deliberately have focussed at infinity.

Sounds odd, but you could be attempting to do it deliberately - in this case, disabling the flash would be very, very annoying.

noblepa · 11-28-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Wulifou

I tend to believe that even if the cameras were smart enough to not fire flash if focus is set beyond a couple of feet (or meter over here), people would take out the manual for the first time, just to check how they can force the flash to fire anyway .....

And, if they couldn't find a way to force the flash, they'd send the camera in for repair, as it is obviously defective, since it didn't fire the flash when it was clearly dark. If they had bought the camera recently enough, they'd take it back to the store and demand a replacement.

It wouldn't surprise me if the designers had considered adding such a feature to the firmware. It would extend battery life, by not firing the flash when it couldn't do any good. I can imagine a design meeting in which the subject comes up, but is voted down, just to avoid the bogus warranty claims and the end-user confusion.

Paul Noble

11-28-2008, 06:27 AM	#1
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Something I've always been wondering about... This concerns Pentax and all brands, really. Built-in flashes usually have a reach of about 3-5 meters in most situations. Yet when used in auto modes, those flashes will fire even if you're hundreds of meters from your subject (you can see that in stadiums...) Why isn't there a line of code in the programming to disable the flash is the measured focus distance is greater than the flash's reach? I'm not talking about external flashes, just the built-in ones, that should be well documented by the manufacturer. It seems it would save many a picture to beginners. In the same line of thought, do all these auto-mode users really think that their flash will light up a whole stadium? Or a city? I was at the top of the Empire State Building some weeks ago, and a fellow with a pocket camera was frustrated with his camera, held at arm's length, with no viewfinder, and a built-in flash. The city looked dark and blurry, he said... I didn't even bother, maybe I should have.

11-28-2008, 11:56 PM	#15
noblepa Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bay Village, Ohio USA Posts: 1,142	Built-in Flash Originally posted by Wulifou I tend to believe that even if the cameras were smart enough to not fire flash if focus is set beyond a couple of feet (or meter over here), people would take out the manual for the first time, just to check how they can force the flash to fire anyway ..... And, if they couldn't find a way to force the flash, they'd send the camera in for repair, as it is obviously defective, since it didn't fire the flash when it was clearly dark. If they had bought the camera recently enough, they'd take it back to the store and demand a replacement. It wouldn't surprise me if the designers had considered adding such a feature to the firmware. It would extend battery life, by not firing the flash when it couldn't do any good. I can imagine a design meeting in which the subject comes up, but is voted down, just to avoid the bogus warranty claims and the end-user confusion. Paul Noble

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11-28-2008, 06:41 AM	#2
ftpaddict Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yurp Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,666	That's a very good question, actually. I've wondered about that myself many times. P&S and DSLR models behave the same. If I can find a dodgy reason as to why a P&S's flash will fire whatever the reason, I'm pretty sure a DSLR with its fancy metering can tell when there's no use triggering it.

11-28-2008, 07:04 AM	#3
ukbluetooth Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Reading, UK Posts: 189	So true - it is really annoying watching all those flashes firing continuously and uselessly. I recently observed a girl taking flash photographs of an eclipsing moon.

11-28-2008, 07:35 AM	#4
Livewireshock Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Lismore, NSW, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 144	Basically it comes down to the fact that the camera is dumb. I mean in that it can not decipher what you intend to take a picture of. So while the camera is pointing mostly out into space in a stadium, the sensors are concentrating on the few people seated in the row in front of the picture takers, setting the flash off. It is easier for camera makers to put in small writing somewhere in the bowels of the instruction manual to physically make the change rather than having a sensor that can read the void in space. I have heard of some P&S cameras that have this void sensing feature if you selected it, but let us be honest, most P&S shooters leave their cameras or mobiles set totally on Auto. Thumb in bum, mind in neutral scenario.

11-28-2008, 09:07 AM	#5
BBear Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: CT / NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 822	Originally posted by Livewireshock I mean in that it can not decipher what you intend to take a picture of. i understand the above, but if the focus is BEYOND the flash range, why still shoot it? i think that was the original question, and i think a very good one.

11-28-2008, 09:17 AM	#6
Mark2100 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 185	Originally posted by BBear i understand the above, but if the focus is BEYOND the flash range, why still shoot it? i think that was the original question, and i think a very good one. I wouldn't doubt that a p&s infinity focus starts at about ten feet.

11-28-2008, 09:19 AM	#7
vizjerei Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,418	Well that's why people pay us to take pictures, right? :P

11-28-2008, 11:33 AM	#8
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357 Original Poster	Originally posted by Mark2100 I wouldn't doubt that a p&s infinity focus starts at about ten feet. My Canon S2 started "infinity" beyond 5 meters. And in any case, the flash on these cameras won't reach 10 feet. It could be pretty easy to turn it off if the camera was focused at infinity, that would be a start. An eclipse with flash... there are SO many ways this is wrong, I don't even know where to start. Quote: Well that's why people pay us to take pictures, right? :P Who's getting paid? :P

11-28-2008, 12:22 PM	#9
Wulifou Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: France and Germany Photos: Albums Posts: 73	Originally posted by bdery The city looked dark and blurry, he said... I didn't even bother, maybe I should have. Well, I did bother several times, tried to explain and got edifying answers : a particular example I remember quite well, since it comes from a member of my family ... shame on us "no, impossible. My camera is set to night-program. So if it decides to fire the flash, there must be a good reason." I tend to believe that even if the cameras were smart enough to not fire flash if focus is set beyond a couple of feet (or meter over here), people would take out the manual for the first time, just to check how they can force the flash to fire anyway .....

11-28-2008, 12:37 PM	#10
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,818	Wot you mean your built in flash don't light up the whole stadium, wot like mine does.

11-28-2008, 12:55 PM	#11
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by vizjerei Well that's why people pay us to take pictures, right? :P +1. very true - camera is only a tool, it can not take pictures by itself and certainly can not cover all the bases. The fact the auto-flash is triggered because the metering mechanism tells the camera that it is underexposured. The flash firing was not meant to be hitting the distance point beyond the 3 metre mark, it is also a way to trigger the flash mode setting such as 1/60 f2.8 or f4.0 (which also means the camera is saying "I give up, just give flash setting it should be good"). Also, if one uses the manual mode instead of the auto (or P) mode, I think the flash will not pop up automatically.

11-28-2008, 01:59 PM	#12
procyon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tallinn Posts: 265	I sometimes feel sorry for those people with their compacts trying to light up stadiums or huge cityscapes. But the most depressing sight is seeing someone shooting with flash through a window ..... the result is of course complete garbage, even if there actually was enough light to get something, a bit blurry or not.

11-28-2008, 10:38 PM	#13
George Lama Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Buffalo/Rochester, NY Photos: Albums Posts: 1,133	Originally posted by Wulifou "no, impossible. My camera is set to night-program. So if it decides to fire the flash, there must be a good reason." Priceless...

11-28-2008, 11:00 PM	#14
cpopham Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Auckland Posts: 553	Consider the bizzare possibility that you might have a person or object in the foreground which you want fill light for, but deliberately have focussed at infinity. Sounds odd, but you could be attempting to do it deliberately - in this case, disabling the flash would be very, very annoying.