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09-07-2021, 01:02 PM - 4 Likes   #31
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The sun's irradiation does vary by location quite a lot. But helpfully, there is a nice map on Wikipedia to help you estimate it (look at the bottom half of the map for on the ground values). The irradiance in northern Britain is about half of what it is at the equator, so your Sunny 11 seems to be about spot on.

Solar irradiance - Wikipedia



09-07-2021, 01:27 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dartmoor Dave Quote
Well hey, you're right! I've been using f/16 for beach and snow for so long that it musty be twenty years since I've actually looked at the rules.
One of the things I like about this forum is that many of us actually try to converse and learn from each other rather than pontificate. If my post has helped - it’s only because your post made me curious and I went digging. Thank you for sparking my curiosity.

---------- Post added 09-07-21 at 04:31 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That article pretty much covers all the bases for both film and digital.
I probably over stated the digital vs film focus based on the parts that stood out in my mind as not applying. I found the article pretty balanced in general but saw some parts that led me to think the focus was on digital - I apologize if that was misleading as I intended it to be more of a caveat to the op to bear in mind their specific application of the rule might be different that some parts of the article.
09-07-2021, 04:16 PM - 2 Likes   #33
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I'd be inclined toward the latitude explanation.

Assuming "North-East of England" is something like York or Scarborough, being at 54° North latitude and being this close to the equinox, the sun location is closer to the horizon than the zenith. That latitude and date means the sun passes through (1/cos(54°) = 1.7) = 70% more atmosphere (and haze) than it would at the equator. It also means that the suns' projected light is slanted across the ground as if it were maybe 3-4 hours (≈*54°/15°-per-hour) after equatorial high-noon.
09-07-2021, 04:16 PM - 1 Like   #34
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Sunny Sixteen isn't an exposure 'solution' for all purposes in and of itself; it's a point of departure for calibrating film, processing and specific gear. It was originally just a marketing step up for the then newer cameras that had aperture options rather than simply a 'daylight' or 'cloudy' switch. Used as a common base-line for using modern gear it's still useful.

Coupla tips:

- Actually SS isn't very useful unless you understand the reciprocal equivalents for ISO, shutter speed and aperture adjustments to the point you can confidentially explain it to someone else.

- Depending upon where you are in the world, and what sort of sky and sun light exists from season to season, SS may promote a variety of correct solutions. "What color's the sky in YOUR world TODAY, pilgrim?"

- Learn what sort of '18% Gray card' scenes apply to your shooting. My 'green grass' and Northern sky targets change from season to season and crop to crop.

- What's 'Bright Sun', a 'Hazy day' or 'Open shadow'? Pay equal attention to the objective shades and crispness of the SHADOWS as well as the subjective perceptions of the quality of incident light. The edges of shadows have degrees of 'crispness' and contrast that equate to exposure. The Arctic peoples have dozens of words to define the characteristics of snow; also a good idea if you pay attention to shadows.

- A Bright day? Snow? Beach? How much are you squinting your eyes . . . half a stop worth? a whole stop? Calibrate your squinty-ness with the 'Blinkies' on in review mode. Keep notes.

- The quick and economical path to learning to use SS today begins with a digital camera with instant review and a working understanding of the histogram function. Sorta 'bass-ackwards' but it works.

- You must make it your personal Sunny Sixteen solution to satisfy today's expectations for consistent, technically correct exposures. Fortunately, digital 'film' makes for free lessons.


++ ND filters are a consistent and repeatable means of varying exposure while 'calibrating' gear. ++


Last edited by pacerr; 09-08-2021 at 07:47 AM.
09-07-2021, 08:55 PM - 1 Like   #35
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A test you can do it take a photo of a piece of white paper making sure that the sun is perpendicular to the paper and take an exposure, next tilt the paper 45 degrees take a photo to the sun with the same exposure and then do the same at 22 degrees. The density of the light will change depending on the angle of the target it is striking as the same amount of light is being spread over at greater surface. It is also worth noting just as the density of the light changes it also has an affect on the WB as the light density changes there is more influence from other light sources light the blue sky changing the WB points.

If you are gauging the exposure you would have to take into account the angle of your target to the position of the sun
09-08-2021, 12:24 AM   #36
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Thanks, everyone, for your helpful and much appreciated responses, including some great links to content I'll read and digest with my morning teas and coffees

There are too many responses and individual points raised since my last post for me to address individually, so if I may, I'll summarise my conclusions:

It seems that "Sunny 16" - for my location - is, indeed, better implemented as "Sunny 11". The slight risk, I suppose, is that in extremely bright, 100% cloud and haze-free mid-day conditions, at the height of summer, perhaps with lots of bright reflective surfaces in a scene, I may encounter some over-exposure; but, since my interest in this is primarily for shooting negative film, that's not likely to be a major problem.

A little additional information:

I have several film cameras with fixed shutter speed and/or aperture, and no film speed setting - one example being the "plastic fantastic" 35mm Vivitar Ultra Wide and Slim, which has a single 1/125s shutter speed and fixed f/11 aperture. Then, I have my recently-acquired 6x6 format Agfa Isola II with 1/100s, 1/30s and Bulb-mode shutter speeds, and f/6.3 or f/11 apertures.

My interest in "Sunny 16" - or "Sunny 11" as I'll now apply it - is two-fold. Firstly - and critically - it will inform my choice of negative film stock, considering both speed and latitude, for the conditions in which I'll shoot. Secondly, for the Isola II, it'll help me to select appropriate shutter speed and aperture to work in combination with my chosen film.

So...

Applying "Sunny 11" with the little Vivitar camera (1/125s + f/11), in the brightest summer conditions I might ideally want ISO 100 film, but ISO 200 would likely be a better choice and certainly more versatile, even though there may be a little acceptable over-exposure on the brightest occasions. In more typical North-East of England weather and lighting, ISO 400 strikes me as a better all-round choice given the fixed shutter speed and aperture... which, in fact, tallies with common wisdom from seasoned users of the camera.

As it happens, I have some rolls of Agfaphoto Vista ISO 200 colour film in my freezer. I assume I could shoot this in the Vivitar as an alternative to ISO 400 film, requesting the lab to push it by +1 - accepting increased contrast and grain, and loss of some shadow detail, as consequences... yes?

For the Agfa Isola II (1/100s & 1/30s, f/6.3 & f/11), it seems I might get away with ISO 100 (perhaps pushed +1) for general use in good-to-reasonable conditions, as the shutter speed and aperture combinations - in 1 2/3rds stop increments - would allow me to shoot handheld in anything from bright, sunny weather to the more typical cloudier and lightly-overcast days, while Bulb mode, tripod and shutter release cable can be used for even duller situations (frankly, I'd probably need the tripod even for 1/30s shots, unless braced against something). Or, perhaps I'd be better shooting ISO 400 film, keeping the shutter speed at 1/100s and aperture at f/11 - much like the Vivitar?

In both cases, colour or C41 B&W negative film with wide latitude would seem a prudent choice.

Assuming "Sunny 11", does my reasoning pass the sniff test? Any final thoughts?

Thanks again, all. It's members' willingness to educate others that show PF at its best

Last edited by BigMackCam; 09-08-2021 at 04:39 AM.
09-08-2021, 01:12 AM - 1 Like   #37
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OP is in the UK. The End.

09-08-2021, 07:25 AM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Applying "Sunny 11" with the little Vivitar camera (1/125s + f/11), in the brightest summer conditions I might ideally want ISO 100 film, but ISO 200 would likely be a better choice and certainly more versatile, even though there may be a little acceptable over-exposure on the brightest occasions. In more typical North-East of England weather and lighting, ISO 400 strikes me as a better all-round choice given the fixed shutter speed and aperture... which, in fact, tallies with common wisdom from seasoned users of the camera.
You could also use 400 iso film in general if you take a neutral density filter with you. (Assuming you can fit it to the camera) The ability to over expose negative film up to 5-6 stops makes higher iso more flexible than lower iso in my opinion. Adding the neutral density filter is good insurance.
09-08-2021, 07:42 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
You could also use 400 iso film in general if you take a neutral density filter with you. (Assuming you can fit it to the camera) The ability to over expose negative film up to 5-6 stops makes higher iso more flexible than lower iso in my opinion. Adding the neutral density filter is good insurance.
Thanks A few days ago I acquired an old but unused Kodak Wratten no. 8 gelatin yellow filter specifically so I can cut it down to size and tape it over the Vivitar's lens. It's not an ND, but I believe it cuts out roughly one stop of light. Not a pretty setup, but it'll work
09-08-2021, 07:50 AM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Thanks A few days ago I acquired an old but unused Kodak Wratten no. 8 gelatin yellow filter specifically so I can cut it down to size and tape it over the Vivitar's lens. It's not an ND, but I believe it cuts out roughly one stop of light. Not a pretty setup, but it'll work

That’s a good choice but delicate and it will get dirty. You may want to look at some type of adapter to allow either screw in filters or a small drop in filter kit like a Cokin.
09-09-2021, 09:19 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
OP is in the UK. The End.
Not just the UK, but the North East. I have always assumed the Sunny 16 rule was meant for Hollywood - looks like you are in a position to tell us
09-09-2021, 02:37 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
A test you can do it take a photo of a piece of white paper making sure that the sun is perpendicular to the paper and take an exposure, next tilt the paper 45 degrees take a photo to the sun with the same exposure and then do the same at 22 degrees. The density of the light will change depending on the angle of the target it is striking as the same amount of light is being spread over at greater surface. It is also worth noting just as the density of the light changes it also has an affect on the WB as the light density changes there is more influence from other light sources light the blue sky changing the WB points.

If you are gauging the exposure you would have to take into account the angle of your target to the position of the sun
With that logic a person standing upright at the South pole would be the brightest of subjects.
09-10-2021, 08:41 PM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
With that logic a person standing upright at the South pole would be the brightest of subjects.
Well yes they would, and this is a logical person knowing this


As you can see the upright snow is brighter than the snow laying down at less of an angle, while both are in the direct sunlight with no shadows there is nearly a 2 stop difference in the luminosity of the snow reflecting the sunlight

Like I said the density of the light is less as the angle of the surface moves away from perpendicular to the light source. And if you look at the snows color the less density of light from the sun allows more of the other light sources to become more dominate thus the more blue the image appears the further away your surface moves from the perpendicular to your main light source.
09-10-2021, 10:15 PM - 1 Like   #44
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If there is a difference over the last 50 years I suspect this might be one of the factors.
Attached Images
 
09-10-2021, 10:28 PM - 1 Like   #45
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SS was originally promoted to be used as, or in place of, an incident light meter. It is descriptive of the nature of the light source, not of the subject or scene that is lit and which calls for selective adjustments based on subject.

Some 'modern' attempts to describe SS begin from the context of reflective metering which misses the point. Older definitions (uh, like from the pre-digital age that referred to film sensitivity as ASA? and flashbulbs?) are most illustrative.

Shadows merely help to categorically define the light source.

Light Condition --- Shadow Detail ---Aperture

Snowy/Sandy --- Dark, sharp edges --- f/22 --- squinty eyed

Clear & Sunny--- Crisp & Distinct --- f/16

Hazy, fuzzy sun --- Soft around edges --- f/11

Overcast --- Barely visible --- f/8 --- gray clouds

Heavy overcast --- No shadows --- f/5.6 --- dark storm clouds

Open shade/Sunset --- No shadows --- f/4 --- under roof
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