Shake reduction setting for macro

Jewelltrail · 01-14-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

AlohaDave:If you are on a tripod though, it's better to turn off SR, whether you can select the focal length or not.

It works by trying to predict motion that handholding would produce, so if it's on a stable tripod, you wouldn't have those kinds of movements, and the sensor would move and introduce softness.

Now, if you are on a tripod that is not super steady, SR may help a bit, but I don't know if anyone has really tested that

Dave, you need to read the thread before you give advice. Here was my first repsonse to the OP question. I will post it again for you since you do not read the whole thread before you respond

Jewelltrail:

Quote:

Your best Macro will happen on the tripod. When using the tripod, shut the Shake Reduction off.

falconeye · 01-15-2009, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by newarts

There is a one-to-one relationship between the distance to the subject and the magnification.
[...]
Actual_Focal_Length*(1+magnification)

Thanks for the formula. In the other thread, I had worked out this formula from the thin lens formula, and came to the same correction (=2) for 1:1 magnification.

UPDATE:
I have added the magnification formula in the other thread (and showed how it derives from the Thin Lens formula):
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/376413-post2.html

Class A · 01-15-2009, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Gimbal

Try this. Put on a manual lens, SR on, enter for instance 600mm. Set shutter to 4 seconds. Place the camera on a table and release the shutter (make sure SR engages) let go of camera.

With a little “luck” (it helps to give the camera a little twist when releasing the shutter) the camera starts to vibrate on the table

Just did a quick test with 250mm. I tried it with the camera on the table and halfway on the table (so that it could move like a seesaw). No movement by the camera at all. Yes, the sensor made a noise as usual with long exposures, but the camera remained rock solid. This was a K100D.

Well, I thought, you'll say it wasn't 600mm. So I went (can't believe I actually did this

) and got a manual lens. Set it to 800mm and 600mm. And *then* the camera really started to ... do nothing. Sat there as a rock.

When I gave it the tiniest tip, it started to wobble on the table. With the (smaller) manual lens it was in an unstable position, yet the sensor movement didn't cause any movement to it that was observable with the naked eye at all.

Interestingly, sometimes the SR would shut itself off. This was only the case when I pressed the release button without holding the camera, i.e., giving it a little twist when releasing. Perhaps -- pure speculation -- when the camera notices that it cannot counteract the movement, it stops SR altogether. Don't know.

Anyhow, no dancing K100D on my table. Now I'm disappointed.

I agree that movement should be kept to a minimum and I shut off SR on a tripod (better, I use 2-sec delay, which uses mirror lock up and shuts off the SR anyhow) but I'm not convinced that the noise I'm hearing indicates any significant camera movement.

**barondla** · 01-15-2009, 08:38 PM

I can often get just as sharp macro shots handheld than with the tripod. just use the flash.
thanks
barondla

Check out POINT & SHOOT CONTEST #14 WINNERS in P&S forum. Enter #15. Any brand camera. Any subject. Enter now!

Nick Siebers · 01-15-2009, 09:02 PM

Well, here an attempt that is handheld, and as barondla suggests, with the flash. SR turned off, the math seemed hard - I had a 135mm tak on a bellows. Seems ok? Thanks everyone for their input, and in advance to anyone else who wats to chime in.

LaRee · 01-16-2009, 12:28 AM

Wow too deep for me guys. I thought photographers were artists not mathematicians.

I shoot my macros hand held because I'm normally chasing bugs with a macro lens. If I am shooting flowers and use a tripod, then SR is off because I use the mirror lock up feature which automatically turns SR off. I figure if I have the luxury of shooting a stationary macro subject, I might as well use all the advantages I can and mirror lock-up makes a BIG difference when shooting macros on a tripod.

LaRee · 01-16-2009, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Nick Siebers

Well, here an attempt that is handheld, and as barondla suggests, with the flash. SR turned off, the math seemed hard - I had a 135mm tak on a bellows. Seems ok? Thanks everyone for their input, and in advance to anyone else who wats to chime in.

It looks good to me. It does depend on what you want to do with it. Obviously if you print it large it will look different than it does displayed here on-line. As far as I can see you've done quite well with this.

Gimbal · 01-16-2009, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Class A

Anyhow, no dancing K100D on my table. Now I'm disappointed.

You did wait for the SR signal to light up? Anyhow my k10d vibrates like a mobile phone on the table. Clear proof that the SR motors are powerful enough to shake the entire camera. And the small amplitude and high frequency is not really what the lighter tripods are built for.

But as this only occurs at fairly long focal lengths I would guess that it is safe to use SR on short lenses. Even though it does feel strange to use the normal shutter button when the camera is mounted on a tripod, it’s just wrong.

Class A · 01-16-2009, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

You did wait for the SR signal to light up?

I did several runs, with pauses between them. And I heard the SR working.

Originally posted by Gimbal

Anyhow my k10d vibrates like a mobile phone on the table.

If I'm not mistaken the K10D uses an improved SR version with a higher amplitude. That might explain it. I doubt your K10D is defective, but that could also explain it. Still completely surprised that your camera is actually moving instead of just making a noise despite the extreme FL setting, but of course I believe you even though I couldn't observe anything like it in my experiments.

Gimbal · 01-16-2009, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by Class A

I did several runs, with pauses between them. And I heard the SR working.

If I'm not mistaken the K10D uses an improved SR version with a higher amplitude.

That might be it, or you where to quick on the shutter and the SR never kicked in. a little buzzing sound from the motors are normal even when SR is not used.

ryan s · 01-16-2009, 01:15 PM

Someone on here did a test of SR by removing the lens and setting the camera for a long exposure. The SR started moving, then more, then it got to a point where it couldn't keep up with the movements and stopped.

Don't remember who did this, unfortunately.

Class A · 01-16-2009, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Gimbal

That might be it, or you where to quick on the shutter and the SR never kicked in.

Just to make sure I tried again, making sure I could see the SR active confirmation in the viewfinder before I fully pressed the release button.

Many times the same thing happened: The usual sensor whirring sound, but no movement.

Twice I managed to evoke a different behaviour: The sound had a lot more low frequency content and the sensor seemed to move about much more vigorously. The camera sounded more like a razor now. But still no movement by the camera whatsoever.

I think these two occurrences relate to what you have described but

my camera didn't move at all (600mm setting) although it was unstable as it gets, ready to tip over the edge of the table, its bottom only partially suspended by the table.
I believe these were exceptional cases of a sensor running wild. I've never heard a sound like that before. But then I haven't shot above 270mm yet and keep the camera safe in my hands or on a tripod.

I'd be surprised to hear that kind of sound, or see your "vibrating mobile phone" behaviour when the camera is half reasonably supported. So I still think in practice this is a non-problem.

Originally posted by ryan s

Someone on here did a test of SR by removing the lens and setting the camera for a long exposure. The SR started moving, then more, then it got to a point where it couldn't keep up with the movements and stopped.

I certainly observed the sensor stopping a couple of times myself.

Jewelltrail · 01-17-2009, 01:34 PM

LaRee:

Quote:

Wow too deep for me guys. I thought photographers were artists not mathematicians.

I shoot my macros hand held because I'm normally chasing bugs with a macro lens. If I am shooting flowers and use a tripod, then SR is off because I use the mirror lock up feature which automatically turns SR off. I figure if I have the luxury of shooting a stationary macro subject, I might as well use all the advantages I can and mirror lock-up makes a BIG difference when shooting macros on a tripod.

I basically do the same thing for Macro work. However, I did not know using the "mirror lockup" feature automatically shut down SR. Page 128 of the K20 manual confirms this--THANK YOU!

Class A · 03-05-2009, 03:26 PM

ChrisA reported his findings regarding SR induced blur on a tripod at the Pentax UK forum. His conclusion: SR does not change things for worse or better on a tripod.

Sodbuster · 03-09-2009, 08:13 AM

Seriously? It doesn't work by isolating the sensor from small movements using something based on gyroscopy, whether physical, laser or electronic? I don't understand how predicting which way your hand will tremble next could possibly work, except by accident.

01-15-2009, 04:43 AM	#17
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by newarts There is a one-to-one relationship between the distance to the subject and the magnification. [...] Actual_Focal_Length(1+magnification) Thanks for the formula. In the other thread, I had worked out this formula from the thin lens formula, and came to the same correction (=2) for 1:1 magnification. UPDATE: I have added the magnification formula in the other thread (and showed how it derives from the Thin Lens formula): https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/376413-post2.html Last edited by falconeye; 01-16-2009 at 04:16 AM. Reason: Cross link to derivation of the formula*

01-15-2009, 06:36 PM	#18
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Gimbal Try this. Put on a manual lens, SR on, enter for instance 600mm. Set shutter to 4 seconds. Place the camera on a table and release the shutter (make sure SR engages) let go of camera. With a little “luck” (it helps to give the camera a little twist when releasing the shutter) the camera starts to vibrate on the table Just did a quick test with 250mm. I tried it with the camera on the table and halfway on the table (so that it could move like a seesaw). No movement by the camera at all. Yes, the sensor made a noise as usual with long exposures, but the camera remained rock solid. This was a K100D. Well, I thought, you'll say it wasn't 600mm. So I went (can't believe I actually did this ) and got a manual lens. Set it to 800mm and 600mm. And then the camera really started to ... do nothing. Sat there as a rock. When I gave it the tiniest tip, it started to wobble on the table. With the (smaller) manual lens it was in an unstable position, yet the sensor movement didn't cause any movement to it that was observable with the naked eye at all. Interestingly, sometimes the SR would shut itself off. This was only the case when I pressed the release button without holding the camera, i.e., giving it a little twist when releasing. Perhaps -- pure speculation -- when the camera notices that it cannot counteract the movement, it stops SR altogether. Don't know. Anyhow, no dancing K100D on my table. Now I'm disappointed. I agree that movement should be kept to a minimum and I shut off SR on a tripod (better, I use 2-sec delay, which uses mirror lock up and shuts off the SR anyhow) but I'm not convinced that the noise I'm hearing indicates any significant camera movement. Last edited by Class A; 01-15-2009 at 06:47 PM.

01-16-2009, 02:49 AM	#24
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Gimbal You did wait for the SR signal to light up? I did several runs, with pauses between them. And I heard the SR working. Originally posted by Gimbal Anyhow my k10d vibrates like a mobile phone on the table. If I'm not mistaken the K10D uses an improved SR version with a higher amplitude. That might explain it. I doubt your K10D is defective, but that could also explain it. Still completely surprised that your camera is actually moving instead of just making a noise despite the extreme FL setting, but of course I believe you even though I couldn't observe anything like it in my experiments. Last edited by Class A; 01-16-2009 at 11:07 PM.

01-16-2009, 11:04 PM	#27
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Gimbal That might be it, or you where to quick on the shutter and the SR never kicked in. Just to make sure I tried again, making sure I could see the SR active confirmation in the viewfinder before I fully pressed the release button. Many times the same thing happened: The usual sensor whirring sound, but no movement. Twice I managed to evoke a different behaviour: The sound had a lot more low frequency content and the sensor seemed to move about much more vigorously. The camera sounded more like a razor now. But still no movement by the camera whatsoever. I think these two occurrences relate to what you have described but my camera didn't move at all (600mm setting) although it was unstable as it gets, ready to tip over the edge of the table, its bottom only partially suspended by the table. I believe these were exceptional cases of a sensor running wild. I've never heard a sound like that before. But then I haven't shot above 270mm yet and keep the camera safe in my hands or on a tripod. I'd be surprised to hear that kind of sound, or see your "vibrating mobile phone" behaviour when the camera is half reasonably supported. So I still think in practice this is a non-problem. Originally posted by ryan s Someone on here did a test of SR by removing the lens and setting the camera for a long exposure. The SR started moving, then more, then it got to a point where it couldn't keep up with the movements and stopped. I certainly observed the sensor stopping a couple of times myself.

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01-14-2009, 10:04 PM	#16
Jewelltrail Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Rhode Island Photos: Albums Posts: 4,180	Quote: AlohaDave:If you are on a tripod though, it's better to turn off SR, whether you can select the focal length or not. It works by trying to predict motion that handholding would produce, so if it's on a stable tripod, you wouldn't have those kinds of movements, and the sensor would move and introduce softness. Now, if you are on a tripod that is not super steady, SR may help a bit, but I don't know if anyone has really tested that Dave, you need to read the thread before you give advice. Here was my first repsonse to the OP question. I will post it again for you since you do not read the whole thread before you respond Jewelltrail: Quote: Your best Macro will happen on the tripod. When using the tripod, shut the Shake Reduction off.

01-15-2009, 08:38 PM	#19
barondla Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: midwest, United States Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,714	I can often get just as sharp macro shots handheld than with the tripod. just use the flash. thanks barondla Check out POINT & SHOOT CONTEST #14 WINNERS in P&S forum. Enter #15. Any brand camera. Any subject. Enter now!

01-15-2009, 09:02 PM	#20
Nick Siebers Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Madison, WI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,165 Original Poster	Well, here an attempt that is handheld, and as barondla suggests, with the flash. SR turned off, the math seemed hard - I had a 135mm tak on a bellows. Seems ok? Thanks everyone for their input, and in advance to anyone else who wats to chime in.

01-16-2009, 12:28 AM	#21
LaRee Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Diego Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,225	Wow too deep for me guys. I thought photographers were artists not mathematicians. I shoot my macros hand held because I'm normally chasing bugs with a macro lens. If I am shooting flowers and use a tripod, then SR is off because I use the mirror lock up feature which automatically turns SR off. I figure if I have the luxury of shooting a stationary macro subject, I might as well use all the advantages I can and mirror lock-up makes a BIG difference when shooting macros on a tripod.

01-16-2009, 12:30 AM	#22
LaRee Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Diego Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,225	Originally posted by Nick Siebers Well, here an attempt that is handheld, and as barondla suggests, with the flash. SR turned off, the math seemed hard - I had a 135mm tak on a bellows. Seems ok? Thanks everyone for their input, and in advance to anyone else who wats to chime in. It looks good to me. It does depend on what you want to do with it. Obviously if you print it large it will look different than it does displayed here on-line. As far as I can see you've done quite well with this.

01-16-2009, 01:24 AM	#23
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by Class A Anyhow, no dancing K100D on my table. Now I'm disappointed. You did wait for the SR signal to light up? Anyhow my k10d vibrates like a mobile phone on the table. Clear proof that the SR motors are powerful enough to shake the entire camera. And the small amplitude and high frequency is not really what the lighter tripods are built for. But as this only occurs at fairly long focal lengths I would guess that it is safe to use SR on short lenses. Even though it does feel strange to use the normal shutter button when the camera is mounted on a tripod, it’s just wrong.

01-16-2009, 04:50 AM	#25
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by Class A I did several runs, with pauses between them. And I heard the SR working. If I'm not mistaken the K10D uses an improved SR version with a higher amplitude. That might be it, or you where to quick on the shutter and the SR never kicked in. a little buzzing sound from the motors are normal even when SR is not used.

01-16-2009, 01:15 PM	#26
ryan s Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Madison, WI Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,383	Someone on here did a test of SR by removing the lens and setting the camera for a long exposure. The SR started moving, then more, then it got to a point where it couldn't keep up with the movements and stopped. Don't remember who did this, unfortunately.

01-17-2009, 01:34 PM	#28
Jewelltrail Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Rhode Island Photos: Albums Posts: 4,180	LaRee: Quote: Wow too deep for me guys. I thought photographers were artists not mathematicians. I shoot my macros hand held because I'm normally chasing bugs with a macro lens. If I am shooting flowers and use a tripod, then SR is off because I use the mirror lock up feature which automatically turns SR off. I figure if I have the luxury of shooting a stationary macro subject, I might as well use all the advantages I can and mirror lock-up makes a BIG difference when shooting macros on a tripod. I basically do the same thing for Macro work. However, I did not know using the "mirror lockup" feature automatically shut down SR. Page 128 of the K20 manual confirms this--THANK YOU!

03-05-2009, 03:26 PM	#29
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	ChrisA reported his findings regarding SR induced blur on a tripod at the Pentax UK forum. His conclusion: SR does not change things for worse or better on a tripod.

03-09-2009, 08:13 AM	#30
Sodbuster Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: SE Minnesota Photos: Gallery Posts: 109	Seriously? It doesn't work by isolating the sensor from small movements using something based on gyroscopy, whether physical, laser or electronic? I don't understand how predicting which way your hand will tremble next could possibly work, except by accident.