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02-24-2009, 03:02 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
Straight out of the Discovery Channel
Maybe in Canada...cos in the US people can get quite arsy, even when sober.
I had a lady violently turn away from my camera and then give me an evil look when I put the camera down and she walked by me. Again, I don't live in Canada. Maybe I should...
maybe i'm blessed with good/friendly looks that strangers dont bag on me.

i'm not saying you may not run into trouble, but how you get out of it depends on your ability to handle these situations.

plus, dude, maybe its a Boston thing?

02-24-2009, 03:07 PM   #47
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sorry, but you're just as off base as gooshin is...

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
In most Western countries (except France) it is legal to photograph people in a public place without their permission and even to use the image for editorial use. It is not legal to use their likeness in association with promotion of a brand, political viewpoint etc. without their permission which is why stock photos with people require model releases.

Of course you should be aware of that, but I dont think this is what he meant. In most places its perfectly legal to shoot people in the street with or without their consent.

Sorry, are you an expert on conflict resolution? You have a funny way of showing it.
Sorry, but I believe you are wrong just as gooshin is on this subject; I don't think your assumption that this is legal is not supported in fact. You might well be confusing the common law and statutory rights of public and private individuals, not to mention the country-specific bodies of law on fair use and misappropriation, privacy, etc.

I am not a lawyer, and I don't pretend to know what law applies and under what conditions, and I certainly don't have a corner of information and fact in this area. Still and all, statements of law like yours and gooshin's that this behavior is a priori legal, and using subject specific website ideally populated by persons with extensive photographic experience, to shovel out a load of possible misinformation under the guise of "fact" is way out of line. Think about what you're saying, that you have the legal right to photograph everybody, under all conditions in all public places; you can't mean that. I don't believe that "right" exists in Europe, or Canada or the US. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but it's going to take more than you and others stating things as fact just because you believe them to be factual.

All we have to do is agree to clearly index opinions as opinions rather than facts. Then we're being fair and reasonable; might still be incorrect, but at least it gives fair warning to everyone.

And as for the second comment, yeah, I guess I could be considered an "expert", if such a thing exists (that's your term, remember, not mine) by dint of a graduate degree in Speech Communication, post graduate research in organizational communication, college instruction in just this specific subject and others. That doesn't make me right, or the sole font of truth, but it does make more opinion more informed than some other folks,
Brian
02-24-2009, 03:11 PM   #48
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pick a country

start reading

this took me all of 20 seconds to google

Photography and the Law | Photography Law | Photo Law News . com

you will see a general idea formed, that photographing things and people in public is okay with the exception of specifically outlined cases, which consequently, are easily rationalized and "fair".

Last edited by Gooshin; 02-24-2009 at 03:19 PM.
02-24-2009, 03:22 PM   #49
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cites...

QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
pick a country

start reading

Photography and the Law | Photography Law | Photo Law News . com

you will see a general idea formed, that photographing things and people in public is okay with the exception of specifically outlined cases, which consequently, are easily rationalized and "fair".
Thanks for the cites,
Brian

02-24-2009, 04:16 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but it's going to take more than you and others stating things as fact just because you believe them to be factual.
From US attorney at Law Bert P. Krages II: The Photographer's Rights in the US.

I carry a few copies of this document in my camera bag so I can hand them out to anybody who might question the legality of my photographing in a public space.

The laws are similar in most Western countries, although the UK recently imposed certain restrictions as I wrote here.

I think it is every photographer's duty to know what his or her rights are in his/her home country. Especially since most people, including police officers, have no clue what they are.
02-24-2009, 04:16 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
plus, dude, maybe its a Boston thing?
Well, Bostonians are known to be a bit rough around the edges
02-24-2009, 09:20 PM   #52
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I remember some link I found, maybe on this forum, of a photographer in NYC who just takes a film camera hooked up to a flash, walks around, and suddenly darts in front of someone, holds the flash up, and takes their picture. Very ballsy, totally legal, and totally not my style.

Laws give us legal boundaries. Whether we prefer to push up against them or not is our freedom of choice.

02-25-2009, 02:17 AM   #53
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In my country you can take pictures of "the mass" in public areas, but you can't take a picture of a single person without permission (unless it is at a public event where taking pictures is well known in advance). Personal rights are taken seriously here (sometimes maybe too seriously), mostly due to the 40 years we spent in the communist era where people didn't have much right...

Know the local regulations, unwritten rules, culture and always be polite - you won't have any problems then. Arrogance and "I know it better..." attitude can get you in trouble and/or to hospital pretty fast in some countries.
02-25-2009, 11:44 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Sorry, but I believe you are wrong just as gooshin is on this subject; I don't think your assumption that this is legal is not supported in fact. You might well be confusing the common law and statutory rights of public and private individuals, not to mention the country-specific bodies of law on fair use and misappropriation, privacy, etc.

I am not a lawyer, and I don't pretend to know what law applies and under what conditions, and I certainly don't have a corner of information and fact in this area. Still and all, statements of law like yours and gooshin's that this behavior is a priori legal, and using subject specific website ideally populated by persons with extensive photographic experience, to shovel out a load of possible misinformation under the guise of "fact" is way out of line. Think about what you're saying, that you have the legal right to photograph everybody, under all conditions in all public places; you can't mean that. I don't believe that "right" exists in Europe, or Canada or the US. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but it's going to take more than you and others stating things as fact just because you believe them to be factual.

All we have to do is agree to clearly index opinions as opinions rather than facts. Then we're being fair and reasonable; might still be incorrect, but at least it gives fair warning to everyone.

Brian
Hi -

I'm a lawyer in New York. I don't specialize in the law about photography, but as to one's right to photograph people in public, the law is absolutely clear: You have the right to photograph anyone you'd like so long as you are in a public place. Period. End of discussion.

And, frankly, I don't understand why this is even a bit difficult to understand. If you are in a PUBLIC area, you do not have an expectation of privacy as to your appearance. People are allowed to look at you, gawk at you, point at you, talk to you. People are allowed to photograph you as well. That's what it means to be in a PUBLIC location.

And isteve is right about the subsequent use of the photograph. You're allowed to do just about anything you'd like with a photograph of someone you took in a public place, except to use their likeness to advertise for a particular product or other similar commercial purposes. You are free to publish it on the internet, in books, etc.

Of course, this doesn't mean that as a matter of courtesy or cultural understanding, one shouldn't be concerned about the feelings of folks one is taking pictures of. That's a very complicated question, but it is not a legal one.
02-25-2009, 01:45 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by ycl Quote
Hi -

I'm a lawyer in New York. I don't specialize in the law about photography, but as to one's right to photograph people in public, the law is absolutely clear: You have the right to photograph anyone you'd like so long as you are in a public place. Period. End of discussion.

And, frankly, I don't understand why this is even a bit difficult to understand. If you are in a PUBLIC area, you do not have an expectation of privacy as to your appearance. People are allowed to look at you, gawk at you, point at you, talk to you. People are allowed to photograph you as well. That's what it means to be in a PUBLIC location.

And isteve is right about the subsequent use of the photograph. You're allowed to do just about anything you'd like with a photograph of someone you took in a public place, except to use their likeness to advertise for a particular product or other similar commercial purposes. You are free to publish it on the internet, in books, etc.

Of course, this doesn't mean that as a matter of courtesy or cultural understanding, one shouldn't be concerned about the feelings of folks one is taking pictures of. That's a very complicated question, but it is not a legal one.

Thankyou for clearing that up.

A photographer who doesnt understand the law is likely to end up in court.

A photographer who doesnt understand manners is likely to end up in hospital.

I think a working knowledge of both is essential, but the two should never be confused
02-25-2009, 07:26 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by xecutech Quote
When I am out in public, I see a lot of interesting people that I would like to take pictures of. I don't want to freak them out!

I see a lot of your pics on here with people out in public. How do you go about getting shots of strangers without getting the police called on you?
I was in a market place in Charleston, SC where local artisans were selling their baskets made from sea grass. I had my camera around my neck and was not taking photos when this lady in one of the booths went off on me telling me to get away from her with that camera. I was astonished until I later realized that she may have been a practicioner of Voodo who I believe feel that a camera can steal their soul. I'm very careful about taking photos of people in public since that incident, but I realize that we don't actually need their permission in a public place.
02-25-2009, 07:48 PM   #57
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If the people you are photographing smell fear in you, you will get the corresponding reaction appropriate for that amount of fear projected by you.

This is a lesson I learnt from a few street photographers
02-25-2009, 09:27 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by railbum Quote
I was in a market place in Charleston, SC where local artisans were selling their baskets made from sea grass. I had my camera around my neck and was not taking photos when this lady in one of the booths went off on me telling me to get away from her with that camera. I was astonished until I later realized that she may have been a practicioner of Voodo who I believe feel that a camera can steal their soul. I'm very careful about taking photos of people in public since that incident, but I realize that we don't actually need their permission in a public place.
I've actually seen that happen before (not to me, fortunately), with the "yeller" thinking that the guy taking the photos was actually trying to get a "copy" of the artist's work - presumably to go home, copy it, and then start mass producing it?

(Of course the guy taking the photos could have just BOUGHT one of the artisans products, taken it home, and THEN copied it - but then at least some $'s would have changed hands.)

Tim
02-27-2009, 08:42 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
(snip) second, street photography is not for the feint of heart, it never was, it never will be. If you dont have the balls to photograph total strangers, then its not for you. Its not about being nice and courteous, (snip)

I think FHPhotographer was reacting (perhaps slightly overreacting) to the generalizations in your comments he replied to. For example, street photography may or may not be legal depending on where you are in the world, what you're photographing, and how you plan to use it. Photographing military installations throughout much of the world is not legal, for instance, even when you're standing on a public street. Under certain circumstances, that might also be illegal within the USA (the Espionage Act, etc). Thus, a blanket, unqualified, "its legal, dont worry about cops" comment is not entirely accurate.

At the same time, your "why should you care what they think" comment sounded a bit calloused (as does your comments above), even if you didn't intend it that way. Of course, if we photograph persons unware, none of this is an issue (though I'm still courteous enough not routinely photograph people in embarrassing or disrespectful situations). But when we stick a camera in someone's face, or they notice our actions, we really should care, at least a little, what they think. Simple courtesy goes a long way towards insuring the public maintains a positive, not negative, attitude towards us and street photography in general. This (other than press) is not a protected act under the US Constitution, thus we are dependant on the goodwill of the people (the majority) for the absence of laws restricting this activity. If we rub too many people the wrong way, the end result may be a rash of "no photography" signs or even laws restricting where or what we photograph.

But, moreover, I just get better results with street photography when I am courteous than when I'm not. Quite obviously, most people, anywhere in the world, will often respond far better to a courteous individual than an ill-mannered one intruding in their life. News photography might require different tactics, but street photography is not news photography.

stewart
02-27-2009, 09:29 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by ycl Quote
Hi - I'm a lawyer in New York. I don't specialize in the law about photography, but as to one's right to photograph people in public, the law is absolutely clear: You have the right to photograph anyone you'd like so long as you are in a public place. Period. End of discussion. (snip)

Really? Since you're a lawyer in New York, and are apparently speaking as one, can you show a law in New York, or the US Code, which makes it "absolutely clear" that we "have the right to photograph anyone you'd like so long as you are in a public place." Since I'm a photographer, I'd most certainly like to know about that law (I've never seen it quoted anywhere, even by other lawyers). Instead, what I believe exists is the absence of a law restricting this activity, making it entirely legal (but not a "right"). However, since this activity (street photography) isn't a protected act under the US Constitution, there is nothing to specifically prevent laws restricting street photography. I'm asking because I think it's important for us to know where we stand before we run around being pushy about "rights" we don't actually have.

stewart
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