Bokeh vs Background Blur: Is there a difference?

lastdodobird · 02-11-2009, 10:49 PM

According to a friend of mine, there is!

Bokeh is supposedly the blurry effect created by a combination of a shallow DOF and a light source.

Background blur is simply just blur.

I don't know about this... Anyone care to opine?

**Canada_Rockies** · 02-11-2009, 10:55 PM

I think the difference is that bokeh is Japanese, while background blur is English. Bokeh seems to ave taken over lately in the laguage. Whichever way, the bokeh with some lenses is truly beautiful (I think the word is "buttery") while with others, it just doesn't look right. This is one of the things about mirror lenses that drives me to the point of not using them - those doughnut highlights in the background blur.

Saichiez · 02-11-2009, 11:28 PM

Bokeh is when the out of focus highlights form as a result of the shape of the opening in the aperture. A lens with "nice" bokeh will result in very round soft out of focus highlights, while a lesser aperture, such as a five blades aperture openings with flat or pentagonal shape will show bokeh highlights to be the shape of the aperture opening, yet with soft edges.

That's one of the reasons why digital lens manufacturers are working very hard to create apertures that are fully circular as the diaphragm opens and closes. It's more critical to control this shape with digital because of the difficulty in achieving nice Bokeh (japanese or otherwise) considering the difficulties of getting a short DOF in digital lenses/small sensors.

Blur is just blur, most often caused by movement of the camera. Bokeh is a function of the shape of out of focus highlights, created by the shape of the aperture.

A larger aperture that is absolutely round produces the shortest Depth of Field, and thus, the nicest bokeh. Older, less expensive five bladed apertures create pentagonal (right word?) shaped bokeh highlights when the aperture is open wide.

A mirror lens creates those circular highlights because the bokeh is a reflection of the circle that is made up by the mirror with a hole in the center.

alohadave · 02-12-2009, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by lastdodobird

According to a friend of mine, there is!

Bokeh is supposedly the blurry effect created by a combination of a shallow DOF and a light source.

Background blur is simply just blur.

I don't know about this... Anyone care to opine?

Bokeh refers to how out of focus areas look pleasing to the eye, not just that it's out of focus.

newarts · 02-12-2009, 06:28 AM

Is anyone aware of a good visual comparison of bokeh from various lenses or any quantitative measure of "bokeh quality"?

MrApollinax · 02-12-2009, 07:04 AM

Take a look at this thread:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31244-bokeh-ma...ggestions.html

Lots of opinions and pictures for you to look at... beware though... This thread has been known to create severe cases of LBA. You have been warned.

reeftool · 02-12-2009, 09:39 AM

It is possible to create background blur while panning when shooting a moving subject and its not the same thing as bokeh or at least my understanding of it. Maybe someone who knows the Japanese language can fill us in on what the real defination is.

I wonder if the great bokeh in some lenses were by design or happened by accident? Lens reviews for years always talked about sharpness at all the openings, contrast, etc and it seems like only recently that reviewers are rating bokeh. I recently read a review of a Canon prime somewhere that got some thumbs down marks because they didn't like the bokeh. I just don't remember as much emphasis on it 20 or 30 years ago, rating a lens on how nice the out of focus areas look and I wonder if it is now included in lens designs.

**Canada_Rockies** · 02-12-2009, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Saichiez

Bokeh is when the out of focus highlights form as a result of the shape of the opening in the aperture. A lens with "nice" bokeh will result in very round soft out of focus highlights, while a lesser aperture, such as a five blades aperture openings with flat or pentagonal shape will show bokeh highlights to be the shape of the aperture opening, yet with soft edges.

That's one of the reasons why digital lens manufacturers are working very hard to create apertures that are fully circular as the diaphragm opens and closes. It's more critical to control this shape with digital because of the difficulty in achieving nice Bokeh (japanese or otherwise) considering the difficulties of getting a short DOF in digital lenses/small sensors.

Blur is just blur, most often caused by movement of the camera. Bokeh is a function of the shape of out of focus highlights, created by the shape of the aperture.

A larger aperture that is absolutely round produces the shortest Depth of Field, and thus, the nicest bokeh. Older, less expensive five bladed apertures create pentagonal (right word?) shaped bokeh highlights when the aperture is open wide.

A mirror lens creates those circular highlights because the bokeh is a reflection of the circle that is made up by the mirror with a hole in the center.

Point taken - yes there is blur other than bokeh possible. Thanks!

Gooshin · 02-12-2009, 10:09 AM

this is bokeh

this is blur

so yes, there is a difference

thePiRaTE!! · 02-12-2009, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by MrApollinax

Take a look at this thread:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31244-bokeh-ma...ggestions.html

Lots of opinions and pictures for you to look at... beware though... This thread has been known to create severe cases of LBA. You have been warned.

I'd forgotten how many rabbit holes that thread opened up, its definately helpful to the is topic. Lots of links to relevant points in there all.

Originally posted by reeftool

It is possible to create background blur while panning when shooting a moving subject and its not the same thing as bokeh or at least my understanding of it. Maybe someone who knows the Japanese language can fill us in on what the real defination is.

I wonder if the great bokeh in some lenses were by design or happened by accident? Lens reviews for years always talked about sharpness at all the openings, contrast, etc and it seems like only recently that reviewers are rating bokeh. I recently read a review of a Canon prime somewhere that got some thumbs down marks because they didn't like the bokeh. I just don't remember as much emphasis on it 20 or 30 years ago, rating a lens on how nice the out of focus areas look and I wonder if it is now included in lens designs.

Lens designers for a long time have considered a lens oof (out of focus) rendering. It was the raison d’être of the early Zeiss Sonnars among others. They sacrificed some sharpness to be slightly under corrected for spherical abberation resulting in a softened overall appearance in the result.

I think bokeh is just a definitive term relative to the consideration of the oof on its own merits, rather than just calling it blur, which has been pointed out can be used to describe several not sharp results, but not all by intention. Bokeh is intentional.

Thats not to say that some lenses not intended to be specifically great at bokeh, aren't also able to produce some, but its probably more often the case that lenses spcifically designed to produce a pleasing oof are able to accomplish this under a wider array of adverse shooting conditions.

Most kit lenses or economy lenses do not cater to this fine wine tasting of bokeh appreciation. Its something a lot of people on a budget simply do not care enough about to spend extra for. However, once you develop a taste for it, there is a virtually limitless amount of money that can be spent on your wine cellar/lens collection.

Look up the Minolta/Sony 135STF and the Leica Noctilux 50/1 as two immediate examples of lenses spared little or no expense in the pursuit of bokeh.

Kelly.

Edit, Gooshin beat me to it, nice example!

roentarre · 02-12-2009, 01:49 PM

The word "bokeh" had been coined since 1870s by Japanese research group. The term was used to designate an area to research on. In that period, Japan was a copy-cat nation that wanted to carbon-copy everything.

The criteria of good bokeh was really based on the leica series lenses at the time. A lot of loose definitions have been applied to this particular word. However, it really meant more than just "out of focus" blur. Personally, I like to consider the word "bokeh" as a visual effect that is equivalent to the view after a long sedating sleep, waking up feeling like a zombie kind of state...

SpecialK · 02-12-2009, 08:10 PM

When I first saw the term "bokeh", I though it was the illiterate way to spell "bouquet", one of the qualities of wine...

But I also thought "noise reduction" was an auditory thing (when reading spec's about my first P&S...)

mattdm · 02-12-2009, 08:22 PM

So, I think this:

The Online Photographer: What Is Bokeh?

is as close to an authoritative answer as we can get, since it's from the person who coined the spelling "bokeh" (to help English speakers not pronounce the word to rhyme with "poke").

legacyb4 · 02-12-2009, 10:02 PM

That's actually quite accurate. In Japanese, "bokeh" is often used to describe the state of being out of it or in a daze.

Much like you feel looking at the bokeh of a really good Limited lens...!

Originally posted by roentarre

However, it really meant more than just "out of focus" blur. Personally, I like to consider the word "bokeh" as a visual effect that is equivalent to the view after a long sedating sleep, waking up feeling like a zombie kind of state...

axl · 02-13-2009, 01:34 AM

I think Gooshin, explained it very plainly.... so yes there is a difference...

02-11-2009, 10:49 PM	#1
lastdodobird Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 128	Bokeh vs Background Blur: Is there a difference? According to a friend of mine, there is! Bokeh is supposedly the blurry effect created by a combination of a shallow DOF and a light source. Background blur is simply just blur. I don't know about this... Anyone care to opine?

02-11-2009, 11:28 PM	#3
Saichiez Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 2	Bokeh a result of the shape of the aperture Bokeh is when the out of focus highlights form as a result of the shape of the opening in the aperture. A lens with "nice" bokeh will result in very round soft out of focus highlights, while a lesser aperture, such as a five blades aperture openings with flat or pentagonal shape will show bokeh highlights to be the shape of the aperture opening, yet with soft edges. That's one of the reasons why digital lens manufacturers are working very hard to create apertures that are fully circular as the diaphragm opens and closes. It's more critical to control this shape with digital because of the difficulty in achieving nice Bokeh (japanese or otherwise) considering the difficulties of getting a short DOF in digital lenses/small sensors. Blur is just blur, most often caused by movement of the camera. Bokeh is a function of the shape of out of focus highlights, created by the shape of the aperture. A larger aperture that is absolutely round produces the shortest Depth of Field, and thus, the nicest bokeh. Older, less expensive five bladed apertures create pentagonal (right word?) shaped bokeh highlights when the aperture is open wide. A mirror lens creates those circular highlights because the bokeh is a reflection of the circle that is made up by the mirror with a hole in the center.

02-12-2009, 01:49 PM	#11
roentarre Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 11,783	The word "bokeh" had been coined since 1870s by Japanese research group. The term was used to designate an area to research on. In that period, Japan was a copy-cat nation that wanted to carbon-copy everything. The criteria of good bokeh was really based on the leica series lenses at the time. A lot of loose definitions have been applied to this particular word. However, it really meant more than just "out of focus" blur. Personally, I like to consider the word "bokeh" as a visual effect that is equivalent to the view after a long sedating sleep, waking up feeling like a zombie kind of state... Last edited by roentarre; 02-12-2009 at 08:56 PM.

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02-11-2009, 10:55 PM	#2
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	I think the difference is that bokeh is Japanese, while background blur is English. Bokeh seems to ave taken over lately in the laguage. Whichever way, the bokeh with some lenses is truly beautiful (I think the word is "buttery") while with others, it just doesn't look right. This is one of the things about mirror lenses that drives me to the point of not using them - those doughnut highlights in the background blur.

02-12-2009, 06:17 AM	#4
alohadave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Quincy, MA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,024	Originally posted by lastdodobird According to a friend of mine, there is! Bokeh is supposedly the blurry effect created by a combination of a shallow DOF and a light source. Background blur is simply just blur. I don't know about this... Anyone care to opine? Bokeh refers to how out of focus areas look pleasing to the eye, not just that it's out of focus.

02-12-2009, 06:28 AM	#5
newarts Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Ames, Iowa, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 2,965	Is anyone aware of a good visual comparison of bokeh from various lenses or any quantitative measure of "bokeh quality"?

02-12-2009, 07:04 AM	#6
MrApollinax Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,529	Take a look at this thread: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31244-bokeh-ma...ggestions.html Lots of opinions and pictures for you to look at... beware though... This thread has been known to create severe cases of LBA. You have been warned.

02-12-2009, 09:39 AM	#7
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,555	It is possible to create background blur while panning when shooting a moving subject and its not the same thing as bokeh or at least my understanding of it. Maybe someone who knows the Japanese language can fill us in on what the real defination is. I wonder if the great bokeh in some lenses were by design or happened by accident? Lens reviews for years always talked about sharpness at all the openings, contrast, etc and it seems like only recently that reviewers are rating bokeh. I recently read a review of a Canon prime somewhere that got some thumbs down marks because they didn't like the bokeh. I just don't remember as much emphasis on it 20 or 30 years ago, rating a lens on how nice the out of focus areas look and I wonder if it is now included in lens designs.

02-12-2009, 09:55 AM	#8
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by Saichiez Bokeh is when the out of focus highlights form as a result of the shape of the opening in the aperture. A lens with "nice" bokeh will result in very round soft out of focus highlights, while a lesser aperture, such as a five blades aperture openings with flat or pentagonal shape will show bokeh highlights to be the shape of the aperture opening, yet with soft edges. That's one of the reasons why digital lens manufacturers are working very hard to create apertures that are fully circular as the diaphragm opens and closes. It's more critical to control this shape with digital because of the difficulty in achieving nice Bokeh (japanese or otherwise) considering the difficulties of getting a short DOF in digital lenses/small sensors. Blur is just blur, most often caused by movement of the camera. Bokeh is a function of the shape of out of focus highlights, created by the shape of the aperture. A larger aperture that is absolutely round produces the shortest Depth of Field, and thus, the nicest bokeh. Older, less expensive five bladed apertures create pentagonal (right word?) shaped bokeh highlights when the aperture is open wide. A mirror lens creates those circular highlights because the bokeh is a reflection of the circle that is made up by the mirror with a hole in the center. Point taken - yes there is blur other than bokeh possible. Thanks!

02-12-2009, 10:09 AM	#9
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	this is bokeh this is blur so yes, there is a difference

02-12-2009, 10:13 AM	#10
thePiRaTE!! Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Calgary, AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 942	Originally posted by MrApollinax Take a look at this thread: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31244-bokeh-ma...ggestions.html Lots of opinions and pictures for you to look at... beware though... This thread has been known to create severe cases of LBA. You have been warned. I'd forgotten how many rabbit holes that thread opened up, its definately helpful to the is topic. Lots of links to relevant points in there all. Originally posted by reeftool It is possible to create background blur while panning when shooting a moving subject and its not the same thing as bokeh or at least my understanding of it. Maybe someone who knows the Japanese language can fill us in on what the real defination is. I wonder if the great bokeh in some lenses were by design or happened by accident? Lens reviews for years always talked about sharpness at all the openings, contrast, etc and it seems like only recently that reviewers are rating bokeh. I recently read a review of a Canon prime somewhere that got some thumbs down marks because they didn't like the bokeh. I just don't remember as much emphasis on it 20 or 30 years ago, rating a lens on how nice the out of focus areas look and I wonder if it is now included in lens designs. Lens designers for a long time have considered a lens oof (out of focus) rendering. It was the raison d’être of the early Zeiss Sonnars among others. They sacrificed some sharpness to be slightly under corrected for spherical abberation resulting in a softened overall appearance in the result. I think bokeh is just a definitive term relative to the consideration of the oof on its own merits, rather than just calling it blur, which has been pointed out can be used to describe several not sharp results, but not all by intention. Bokeh is intentional. Thats not to say that some lenses not intended to be specifically great at bokeh, aren't also able to produce some, but its probably more often the case that lenses spcifically designed to produce a pleasing oof are able to accomplish this under a wider array of adverse shooting conditions. Most kit lenses or economy lenses do not cater to this fine wine tasting of bokeh appreciation. Its something a lot of people on a budget simply do not care enough about to spend extra for. However, once you develop a taste for it, there is a virtually limitless amount of money that can be spent on your wine cellar/lens collection. Look up the Minolta/Sony 135STF and the Leica Noctilux 50/1 as two immediate examples of lenses spared little or no expense in the pursuit of bokeh. Kelly. Edit, Gooshin beat me to it, nice example!

02-12-2009, 08:10 PM	#12
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,482	When I first saw the term "bokeh", I though it was the illiterate way to spell "bouquet", one of the qualities of wine... But I also thought "noise reduction" was an auditory thing (when reading spec's about my first P&S...)

02-12-2009, 08:22 PM	#13
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	So, I think this: The Online Photographer: What Is Bokeh? is as close to an authoritative answer as we can get, since it's from the person who coined the spelling "bokeh" (to help English speakers not pronounce the word to rhyme with "poke").

02-12-2009, 10:02 PM	#14
legacyb4 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Tri-Cities, British Columbia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,784	That's actually quite accurate. In Japanese, "bokeh" is often used to describe the state of being out of it or in a daze. Much like you feel looking at the bokeh of a really good Limited lens...! Originally posted by roentarre However, it really meant more than just "out of focus" blur. Personally, I like to consider the word "bokeh" as a visual effect that is equivalent to the view after a long sedating sleep, waking up feeling like a zombie kind of state...

02-13-2009, 01:34 AM	#15
axl Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Nove Zamky, Slovakia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,183	I think Gooshin, explained it very plainly.... so yes there is a difference...