Faking natural light (why don't we have a lighting/studio forum?)

Mike Cash · 03-19-2009, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by wildman

I was not making an assertion but merely stating a fact - It "sounds" like a oxymoron to me - and it still does.

Perhaps simulating or imitating or even feigning would be more appropriate.

But I digress.

"Faking natural light" is without a doubt oxymoronic, but it is not an oxymoron. "Fake natural light" is an oxymoron.

I was addressing the syntactical considerations.

Originally posted by leadbelly

I've always been fascinated with "faking natural light" to produce results wherein the viewer won't notice that a flash has been used, as opposed to the strobist style, where flash is used off-camera, obvious though used in a creative and appealing way

There is nothing inherent in strobist off-camera flash that prevents it being used to mimic natural light. Both on-camera and off-camera flash can be used for that.

Last edited by Mike Cash; 03-19-2009 at 04:27 AM.

HypnoCin67 · 03-19-2009, 06:41 AM

I too fake natural light at times--especially with flower shots done indoors. I use a daylight bulb in a contractor's lamp, hung from a nail on the wall in my "studio." (read: dining room) I put up a black velvet background (once again think: "low budget" because I use thumbtacks to put it up.) Then I set up the shot, in this case, spring tulips and start shootin'! It has worked well for me and cost a total of about $12.00 (not counting the tulips, which cost $6.99!)

Also, please join us at Pentaxians on flickr: Flickr: Pentaxians

We'd love more members to chat with and post--we're just a nice group of folks who don't want to snipe at each other, but be supportive and have fun. Cindy

HypnoCin67 · 03-19-2009, 06:42 AM

with the simulated natural light! Nice work! Cindy

leadbelly · 03-19-2009, 09:39 AM

We should have a lighting forum. It doesn't mean it should be limited to using strobes and flashes or faking natural light. It could include strobes and lights of course, but also ambient lighting like use of available light, how to maximize the light available, etc... how to use/control the harsh sun to your advantage, or moody dim light to create moods... how to do portraits with a single light source, multiple light source, or natural lighting, etc... the list is endless! I say go for it!

pingflood · 03-19-2009, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by leadbelly

We should have a lighting forum. It doesn't mean it should be limited to using strobes and flashes or faking natural light. It could include strobes and lights of course, but also ambient lighting like use of available light, how to maximize the light available, etc... how to use/control the harsh sun to your advantage, or moody dim light to create moods... how to do portraits with a single light source, multiple light source, or natural lighting, etc... the list is endless! I say go for it!

I suspect there are a few people around here that have a lot of knowledge on the topic (I'm not one of them though!), so it could be interesting. What would be really great to see is some shots and the way they were setup (reflectors, lights etc). I for one would really appreciate some insight into various methods to contain the light -- my main problem is not getting it do do what I want, but rather to keep it from going where it shouldn't. Sure, you can spend a small fortune on things to direct/block the light, but I bet there are some good inexpensive and portable ways to do it too.

Venturi · 03-19-2009, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by pingflood

Sure, you can spend a small fortune on things to direct/block the light, but I bet there are some good inexpensive and portable ways to do it too.

For example...

(credit where credit is due - I learned the following from reading Master Lighting Guide for Portrait Photographers. Good book with lots of examples and setups)

Foamcore board is good for more than mounting prints. The non-acidfree stuff costs $10 for a 40x60" sheet at Hobby Lobby. It's pure white (the acidfree type is a bit dingy) and light as a feather. It makes a great bounce card or reflector. And if you spray paint one side flat black you've got a gobo. Take two sheets and tape a hinge along the long side of them and you've got a "bookend" you can use for a plethora of light controlling options: block it, bounce it, focus it, feather it.

Now grab two more cans of spray paint, gold and silver, and put a light coat of each on opposite sides of the 2nd sheet of your bookend. Now you've got a 40x60" 4-way reflector for about $35 in supplies (try pricing a retail reflector that size online

).

And of course you don't have to go 40x60 either. You can cut up a big sheet into smaller ones or just buy precut in smaller sizes (but the big sheets are less expensive per sqft). A 20x30 card is big enough for bouncing the sun to add fill light on an outdoor shoot and will fit easily into most trunks (or boots depending where you are). You can make four of those from one big sheet. If you bust one up or lose it, so what it only cost you $5 to make.

Here's a really basic example of using the bookend:

The setup: Vivitar 285HV @ 1/4 power into 17x50 strip softbox. Fill - 40x60" foamcore "bookend".
I really needed to either bring the bookend or the softbox in closer to balance the light as the fill is a bit weak here.

Ira · 03-21-2009, 06:55 AM

I used to love playing with the white foam core, and black, but I need a portable solution. Any ideas?

In Florida, the problem can be sun--too much of it, so you need white to bounce back on the weak side of the subject.

Maybe I just gave myself an idea:

I'll take one of my cheap and very portable light stands, a tube with some white material rolled onto it, and rig a way to attach it the stand and roll down as needed. Perhaps even take white and black and glue them back to back so it'll be dual purpose. But the black will either increase the reflectivity, which is good, or add to absorption, which is bad.

Any physics majors here?

alohadave · 03-21-2009, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Ira

I used to love playing with the white foam core, and black, but I need a portable solution. Any ideas?

In Florida, the problem can be sun--too much of it, so you need white to bounce back on the weak side of the subject.

Maybe I just gave myself an idea:

I'll take one of my cheap and very portable light stands, a tube with some white material rolled onto it, and rig a way to attach it the stand and roll down as needed. Perhaps even take white and black and glue them back to back so it'll be dual purpose. But the black will either increase the reflectivity, which is good, or add to absorption, which is bad.

Any physics majors here?

How would the black side increase reflectivity? Unless it's a glossy surface, but even then, the black surface will absorb much of the light.

Ira · 03-21-2009, 01:44 PM

Since the black is on the back side of the white that I'm using to bounce, I figured less light would get diffused through the white sheet.

Like, if I used two layers of white, less would get diffused THROUGH it and more would bounce.

So this same theory would kind of apply with a black backside.

Sheets, mind you--not pro umbrellas or opaque board.

pingflood · 03-21-2009, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Venturi

Good stuff

Hey, would you mind sharing how you mounted the Vivitar to the softbox? Also, thanks for the tip on the foamcore -- I only see 20x30 at the local places and didn't know you could get much larger for cheap.

philbaum · 03-22-2009, 09:43 AM

I think its a great shot and like the singular direction of the flash.

A lighting sub forum would be good. Seems like now a lot of specific artificial lighting discussion ends up in the Accessories forum in a hit or miss way, with some going to general, slr forums, etc..

pingflood · 03-22-2009, 06:11 PM

OK, let's bug the mods to get a lighting forum.

I asked people to show some samples of how they do things, so I'll share my ultra basic "ebay auction" setup.

The result:

The light (single 420EX--Pentax equivalent would be AF360--into a silver umbrella):

And the 'scene' (sorry for the messy room, it's my little girl's play area):

Super simple, single light, but decent results.

Venturi · 03-22-2009, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by pingflood

Hey, would you mind sharing how you mounted the Vivitar to the softbox? Also, thanks for the tip on the foamcore -- I only see 20x30 at the local places and didn't know you could get much larger for cheap.

Chimera makes several speedrings/adapters that have a bracket for mounting a hotshoe flash. I picked mine up from Adorama for $40 ( chimera shoe ). Westcott also makes the Magic Slipper for $250 if you wanna get fancy and blow lots of money.

For that 17x50 strip light I had to gaffer tape the Chimera speedring to a Westcott speedring because the Chimera only has four rod pockets and won't work with strips (or octas).

sebberry · 03-23-2009, 12:02 AM

I'd love to see a lighting forum. It would be very useful/handy to see what sorts of setups produce what results.

Mike Cash · 03-24-2009, 02:14 AM

There is definitely an interest in lighting setup examples. When I post photos to either the "Strobist" or "One Strobe Pony" groups on Flickr my setup shots routinely get double the number of views the resulting shots do.

Place some hard candy atop the translucent can lid and fire the flash inside with a radio trigger for this:

Pentax K100D
S-M-C Takumar 105/2.8
58mm of M42 extension tubes

All done in my truck to kill time while stuck in line at the docks during the lunch hour.

03-19-2009, 06:41 AM	#17
HypnoCin67 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Portland, Maine Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 130	I fake natural light sometimes too! I too fake natural light at times--especially with flower shots done indoors. I use a daylight bulb in a contractor's lamp, hung from a nail on the wall in my "studio." (read: dining room) I put up a black velvet background (once again think: "low budget" because I use thumbtacks to put it up.) Then I set up the shot, in this case, spring tulips and start shootin'! It has worked well for me and cost a total of about $12.00 (not counting the tulips, which cost $6.99!) Also, please join us at Pentaxians on flickr: Flickr: Pentaxians We'd love more members to chat with and post--we're just a nice group of folks who don't want to snipe at each other, but be supportive and have fun. Cindy Attached Images

03-19-2009, 06:42 AM	#18
HypnoCin67 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Portland, Maine Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 130	Forgot to mention that I like your original shot with the simulated natural light! Nice work! Cindy

03-19-2009, 09:39 AM	#19
leadbelly Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 597	I agree We should have a lighting forum. It doesn't mean it should be limited to using strobes and flashes or faking natural light. It could include strobes and lights of course, but also ambient lighting like use of available light, how to maximize the light available, etc... how to use/control the harsh sun to your advantage, or moody dim light to create moods... how to do portraits with a single light source, multiple light source, or natural lighting, etc... the list is endless! I say go for it!

03-19-2009, 10:19 PM	#21
Venturi Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tulsa, OK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,636	Originally posted by pingflood Sure, you can spend a small fortune on things to direct/block the light, but I bet there are some good inexpensive and portable ways to do it too. For example... (credit where credit is due - I learned the following from reading Master Lighting Guide for Portrait Photographers. Good book with lots of examples and setups) Foamcore board is good for more than mounting prints. The non-acidfree stuff costs $10 for a 40x60" sheet at Hobby Lobby. It's pure white (the acidfree type is a bit dingy) and light as a feather. It makes a great bounce card or reflector. And if you spray paint one side flat black you've got a gobo. Take two sheets and tape a hinge along the long side of them and you've got a "bookend" you can use for a plethora of light controlling options: block it, bounce it, focus it, feather it. Now grab two more cans of spray paint, gold and silver, and put a light coat of each on opposite sides of the 2nd sheet of your bookend. Now you've got a 40x60" 4-way reflector for about $35 in supplies (try pricing a retail reflector that size online ). And of course you don't have to go 40x60 either. You can cut up a big sheet into smaller ones or just buy precut in smaller sizes (but the big sheets are less expensive per sqft). A 20x30 card is big enough for bouncing the sun to add fill light on an outdoor shoot and will fit easily into most trunks (or boots depending where you are). You can make four of those from one big sheet. If you bust one up or lose it, so what it only cost you $5 to make. Here's a really basic example of using the bookend: The setup: Vivitar 285HV @ 1/4 power into 17x50 strip softbox. Fill - 40x60" foamcore "bookend". I really needed to either bring the bookend or the softbox in closer to balance the light as the fill is a bit weak here. Last edited by Venturi; 03-19-2009 at 10:30 PM. Reason: pics

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03-19-2009, 04:19 AM	#16
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	Originally posted by wildman I was not making an assertion but merely stating a fact - It "sounds" like a oxymoron to me - and it still does. Perhaps simulating or imitating or even feigning would be more appropriate. But I digress. "Faking natural light" is without a doubt oxymoronic, but it is not an oxymoron. "Fake natural light" is an oxymoron. I was addressing the syntactical considerations. Originally posted by leadbelly I've always been fascinated with "faking natural light" to produce results wherein the viewer won't notice that a flash has been used, as opposed to the strobist style, where flash is used off-camera, obvious though used in a creative and appealing way There is nothing inherent in strobist off-camera flash that prevents it being used to mimic natural light. Both on-camera and off-camera flash can be used for that. Last edited by Mike Cash; 03-19-2009 at 04:27 AM.

03-19-2009, 10:34 AM	#20
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169 Original Poster	Originally posted by leadbelly We should have a lighting forum. It doesn't mean it should be limited to using strobes and flashes or faking natural light. It could include strobes and lights of course, but also ambient lighting like use of available light, how to maximize the light available, etc... how to use/control the harsh sun to your advantage, or moody dim light to create moods... how to do portraits with a single light source, multiple light source, or natural lighting, etc... the list is endless! I say go for it! I suspect there are a few people around here that have a lot of knowledge on the topic (I'm not one of them though!), so it could be interesting. What would be really great to see is some shots and the way they were setup (reflectors, lights etc). I for one would really appreciate some insight into various methods to contain the light -- my main problem is not getting it do do what I want, but rather to keep it from going where it shouldn't. Sure, you can spend a small fortune on things to direct/block the light, but I bet there are some good inexpensive and portable ways to do it too.

03-21-2009, 06:55 AM	#22
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	I used to love playing with the white foam core, and black, but I need a portable solution. Any ideas? In Florida, the problem can be sun--too much of it, so you need white to bounce back on the weak side of the subject. Maybe I just gave myself an idea: I'll take one of my cheap and very portable light stands, a tube with some white material rolled onto it, and rig a way to attach it the stand and roll down as needed. Perhaps even take white and black and glue them back to back so it'll be dual purpose. But the black will either increase the reflectivity, which is good, or add to absorption, which is bad. Any physics majors here?

03-21-2009, 01:33 PM	#23
alohadave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Quincy, MA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,024	Originally posted by Ira I used to love playing with the white foam core, and black, but I need a portable solution. Any ideas? In Florida, the problem can be sun--too much of it, so you need white to bounce back on the weak side of the subject. Maybe I just gave myself an idea: I'll take one of my cheap and very portable light stands, a tube with some white material rolled onto it, and rig a way to attach it the stand and roll down as needed. Perhaps even take white and black and glue them back to back so it'll be dual purpose. But the black will either increase the reflectivity, which is good, or add to absorption, which is bad. Any physics majors here? How would the black side increase reflectivity? Unless it's a glossy surface, but even then, the black surface will absorb much of the light.

03-21-2009, 01:44 PM	#24
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Since the black is on the back side of the white that I'm using to bounce, I figured less light would get diffused through the white sheet. Like, if I used two layers of white, less would get diffused THROUGH it and more would bounce. So this same theory would kind of apply with a black backside. Sheets, mind you--not pro umbrellas or opaque board.

03-21-2009, 03:48 PM	#25
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169 Original Poster	Originally posted by Venturi Good stuff Hey, would you mind sharing how you mounted the Vivitar to the softbox? Also, thanks for the tip on the foamcore -- I only see 20x30 at the local places and didn't know you could get much larger for cheap.

03-22-2009, 09:43 AM	#26
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	I think its a great shot and like the singular direction of the flash. A lighting sub forum would be good. Seems like now a lot of specific artificial lighting discussion ends up in the Accessories forum in a hit or miss way, with some going to general, slr forums, etc..

03-22-2009, 06:11 PM	#27
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169 Original Poster	OK, let's bug the mods to get a lighting forum. I asked people to show some samples of how they do things, so I'll share my ultra basic "ebay auction" setup. The result: The light (single 420EX--Pentax equivalent would be AF360--into a silver umbrella): And the 'scene' (sorry for the messy room, it's my little girl's play area): Super simple, single light, but decent results.

03-22-2009, 10:36 PM	#28
Venturi Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tulsa, OK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,636	Originally posted by pingflood Hey, would you mind sharing how you mounted the Vivitar to the softbox? Also, thanks for the tip on the foamcore -- I only see 20x30 at the local places and didn't know you could get much larger for cheap. Chimera makes several speedrings/adapters that have a bracket for mounting a hotshoe flash. I picked mine up from Adorama for $40 ( chimera shoe ). Westcott also makes the Magic Slipper for $250 if you wanna get fancy and blow lots of money. For that 17x50 strip light I had to gaffer tape the Chimera speedring to a Westcott speedring because the Chimera only has four rod pockets and won't work with strips (or octas).

03-23-2009, 12:02 AM	#29
sebberry Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Frozen white North Photos: Albums Posts: 1,135	I'd love to see a lighting forum. It would be very useful/handy to see what sorts of setups produce what results.

03-24-2009, 02:14 AM	#30
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	There is definitely an interest in lighting setup examples. When I post photos to either the "Strobist" or "One Strobe Pony" groups on Flickr my setup shots routinely get double the number of views the resulting shots do. Place some hard candy atop the translucent can lid and fire the flash inside with a radio trigger for this: Pentax K100D S-M-C Takumar 105/2.8 58mm of M42 extension tubes All done in my truck to kill time while stuck in line at the docks during the lunch hour.