Always check the law

flyer · 04-05-2009, 10:06 AM

Consumer protection laws in Québec are among the best in Canada. Quite a few retailers from other provinces don't want to deal with Québec because of the Consumer Protection laws we have. By the way, I inquired with my "ex" dealer about my lenses, and they should be in store early this week.

stewart_photo · 04-05-2009, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by KrisK10D

(snip) Stewart you take internet reading comprehension to a whole new sub-level!

Do you really think that calling a customer, who's already paid for his goods, and telling them they have 2 options, pay up or cancel, is not modifying a contract? (snip)

No, I suggest checking your own reading comprehension. The original message said...

"The day after, the shop owner called me back and told me there was
a huge increase in prices on April 1st, and some of the lenses would
come in only after. He then asked me if I wanted to cancel those lenses
or pay the difference in price."

In other words, he didn't just give two options, but instead explained the situation before doing so. As far as I can see, the dealer acted entirely reasonable here. No laws were broken and Yves (the OP) is getting his lenses at the lower price. The only person harmed in this situation is the dealer getting little or nothing (and perhaps even losing money) out of the deal.

Quote:

(snip) So, I'll make it simple for you... you can't change the price of an item you've already sold to someone. Sorry if 3 syllables is too hard for you to comprehend

Okay, since you can't seem to comprehend what I'm saying, I'll make it simple for you. Read the original message again. Once again, the dealer didn't change the price of the item sold. Instead, he called the buyer to explain a bad situation on a backorder item that wasn't going to be available until after a price increase (something the dealer in this case obviously didn't know until actually ordering the item) and then asked. When the buyer refused to pay the actual price of the lens he certainly intends to enjoy, the dealer agreed to deliver the lens at the price agreed to before this new information (the delay and price increase) was discovered.

Finally, to all those talking about the dealer paying when the item is ordered, that's not how business works. The dealer orders the item and is not invoiced until the item is shipped. If his supplier (which is more likely a wholesaler rather than Pentax) raises the price before shipping a backordered item, the dealer is given an option to either cancel or pay the difference - the exact same options the dealer gave the person posting the original message.

stewart

flyer · 04-05-2009, 03:18 PM

Stewart,

The laws in Germany, the States and Canada are not the same. I own a business, and when I order an item, my suppliers bill me at the time of shipping with the price AT THE TIME of the order. And my store supplier is indeed Pentax (Canada). I don't really see a company like Pentax trying to cheat their distributor, unless they are complete a$$ hole (that might be the case). If I hadn't checked which laws apply to my ordering of those lenses, I'm reasonably sure he would have put more pressure to get more money out of the deal. And, beside, when he got into business, he knew he couldn't win all the time. Most of the time you win, but once in a while, you (or one of your employee) make a mistake and you loose a few feathers. When I bought the lenses, he checked the prices online with Pentax, so even if the lenses were back order, he had the right price at the time of the order, which should be the billing price. I think he was trying to put some money directly in his pocket.

poco · 04-06-2009, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by flyer

By the way, I inquired with my "ex" dealer about my lenses, and they should be in store early this week.

Since you tweaked his ego, and he replied with an emotional response, I would inspect all the lenses before leaving the store very thoroughly. I would also check beforehand what any laws say about damaged goods, or gray market goods, in this rare case. You probably won't need it, but if you do you had better know what your rights are. It might also be good to go in with a witness. I know, paranoia, but ...

Wheatfield · 04-06-2009, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by flyer

Stewart,

The laws in Germany, the States and Canada are not the same. I own a business, and when I order an item, my suppliers bill me at the time of shipping with the price AT THE TIME of the order. And my store supplier is indeed Pentax (Canada). I don't really see a company like Pentax trying to cheat their distributor, unless they are complete a$$ hole (that might be the case). If I hadn't checked which laws apply to my ordering of those lenses, I'm reasonably sure he would have put more pressure to get more money out of the deal. And, beside, when he got into business, he knew he couldn't win all the time. Most of the time you win, but once in a while, you (or one of your employee) make a mistake and you loose a few feathers. When I bought the lenses, he checked the prices online with Pentax, so even if the lenses were back order, he had the right price at the time of the order, which should be the billing price. I think he was trying to put some money directly in his pocket.

The price is locked in at the time the product is paid for. Pentax has to honour the price as advertised at the time the product is paid for, whether or not there is a back order situation.
Your dealer shouldn't be out any money, he took the order in good faith that the price he was charging was the actual price, since Pentax had that price in their list at the time of ordering.
It might be different if an order had been placed but not paid for, but as soon as the product is paid for, the price is locked in at the distributor level.
Stewart, in Canada, Pentax is the supplier for Pentax equipment, there is no third party distribution here.
Yves, you should check to make sure my summation is correct, if it is, then your dealer is getting a bad rap from Pentax, in which case you and your dealer are actually on the same side, which might go a long way to patching up the bad feelings.

KrisK10D · 04-06-2009, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by stewart_photo

No, I suggest checking your own reading comprehension. The original message said...

"The day after, the shop owner called me back and told me there was
a huge increase in prices on April 1st, and some of the lenses would
come in only after. He then asked me if I wanted to cancel those lenses
or pay the difference in price."

In other words, he didn't just give two options, but instead explained the situation before doing so. As far as I can see, the dealer acted entirely reasonable here. No laws were broken and Yves (the OP) is getting his lenses at the lower price. The only person harmed in this situation is the dealer getting little or nothing (and perhaps even losing money) out of the deal.

I'm glad you can snip post to make your argument, Stewart... here's the complete post.

Originally posted by flyer

A short while ago, I had some of my lenses stolen. I didn't mention it before because they were insured, and we all have our problems to deal with. While waiting for the insurance company to pay for my loss, I went to my regular dealer to have a quote on replacement. When I got paid by the insurance company, I went back to the store and ordered the lenses, and paid cash, even though some lenses were back order. The day after, the shop owner called me back and told me there was a huge increase in prices on April 1st, and some of the lenses would come in only after. He then asked me if I wanted to cancel those lenses or pay the difference in price. I inquired with Québec's Consumer Protection Office, and they told me a bill of sale was a binding contract between the buyer and the seller, and the parties can't unilaterally change it. When I called back the dealer to let him know that I wanted the lens and he couldn't change anything to the contract, he told me he'd ordered the lens, but after that, I was "personna non grata" in his store.

I'll point out to you that I made bold the important information that you seem to have disregarded yet again!

Also, I recon that if the insurance company were informed that the sale price had increased after they were paid for, they'd be seriously thinking about sending the retailer/supplier/manufacturer a letter suggesting that fraud is a criminal offense.

Originally posted by stewart_photo

Okay, since you can't seem to comprehend what I'm saying, I'll make it simple for you. Read the original message again. Once again, the dealer didn't change the price of the item sold. Instead, he called the buyer to explain a bad situation on a backorder item that wasn't going to be available until after a price increase (something the dealer in this case obviously didn't know until actually ordering the item) and then asked. When the buyer refused to pay the actual price of the lens he certainly intends to enjoy, the dealer agreed to deliver the lens at the price agreed to before this new information (the delay and price increase) was discovered.

Finally, to all those talking about the dealer paying when the item is ordered, that's not how business works. The dealer orders the item and is not invoiced until the item is shipped. If his supplier (which is more likely a wholesaler rather than Pentax) raises the price before shipping a backordered item, the dealer is given an option to either cancel or pay the difference - the exact same options the dealer gave the person posting the original message.

stewart

backorder schmakorder... means absolutely zero in this instance. See above!

My god some people make things so much more difficult than it should be.

flyer · 04-07-2009, 01:53 PM

Hey guys (and gals),

I got my lenses today. All of them, and when I picked them up at the store, they were still in the box Pentax Canada used to ship them. The label said they were shipped on March 31st. I'd like to know how the store managed to have them, since the store owner was supposedly told by Pentax (on a Sunday, no less) there was no way they were going to be delivered before April 1st. At this point, I can only speculate, but I personally think the guy was trying to make some extra on my purchase. Now, I'll be busy this evening checking them all out. A pleasant evening.

stewart_photo · 04-08-2009, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by flyer

The laws in Germany, the States and Canada are not the same.

I'm well aware of that, Yves. Especially since I've lived and done business in all three countries - most recently Seattle (USA), Victoria (BC/Canada), and Heidelberg (Germany). And, yes, I also know there are differences within each of those countries.

Quote:

I own a business, and when I order an item, my suppliers bill me at the time of shipping with the price AT THE TIME of the order. And my store supplier is indeed Pentax (Canada). (snip)

Since potential loss could be staggering, I'm not personally aware of any supplier who would routinely agree to be locked into a price for expensive items they do not currently have in stock. They might do so for common items where price is reasonably assured or low cost items where price changes are typically small, but not expensive items. You seem to be unusually aware of this dealer's business, but I can't really comment further since I'm just not aware of his suppliers or any agreements he might have with those suppliers.

stewart

stewart_photo · 04-08-2009, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by KrisK10D

(snip) I'll point out to you that I made bold the important information that you seem to have disregarded yet again!

(snip) ..the sale price had increased after they were paid for ... a letter suggesting that fraud is a criminal offense. (snip)

Okay, in what way have I disregarded the information you've highlighted? We all know Yves (the OP) paid for the items and that the items were backordered. Those facts have been repeated mentioned, in some form or another, by me and most others here. However, that doesn't defend what you said earlier. Again, the dealer did not just say "pay up or cancel," as you said (and I replied to). Instead, the dealer explained the situation, asked what the buyer wanted to do, and then agreed to deliver at the original price. Yves did not pay more for the lenses and a discusion is neither "fraud" nor a "criminal offense." So, which of those evidently complex facts do you not comprehend?

stewart

RBellavance · 04-08-2009, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by flyer

I got my lenses today. All of them, and when I picked them up at the store, they were still in the box Pentax Canada used to ship them. The label said they were shipped on March 31st. I'd like to know how the store managed to have them, since the store owner was supposedly told by Pentax (on a Sunday, no less) there was no way they were going to be delivered before April 1st. At this point, I can only speculate, but I personally think the guy was trying to make some extra on my purchase. Now, I'll be busy this evening checking them all out. A pleasant evening.

Glad to read you got everything in good shape. Care to name the store in question ? Or give us a hint on its identity ?

stewart_photo · 04-08-2009, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by flyer

(snip) The label said they were shipped on March 31st. I'd like to know how the store managed to have them, since the store owner was supposedly told by Pentax (on a Sunday, no less) there was no way they were going to be delivered before April 1st. (snip)

Huh? If the lenses were shipped on March 31st, they quite obviously were not going to be delivered before April 1st (the very next day).

stewart

Wheatfield · 04-08-2009, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by stewart_photo

Huh? If the lenses were shipped on March 31st, they quite obviously were not going to be delivered before April 1st (the very next day).

stewart

OTOH, they WERE shipped prior to the April 1st price increase, which means the cost price pretty much had to be the pre increase price.

flyer · 04-08-2009, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by RBellavance

Glad to read you got everything in good shape. Care to name the store in question ? Or give us a hint on its identity ?

I bought the lenses at C.D.M. Photo in St.-Jérome. Qc. What is suspicious is that I ordered the lenses on a Friday afternoon at around 3:30pm. If the stored placed the order with Pentax right away using internet, I don't see Pentax checking the order right away, verifying everything is in stock, and if not checking with whoever in the States or Japan when the missing lensees (if any) are going to be shipped and calling the store back before closing time to let them know about the back order item. And to top it off, if Pentax Canada had communicated with the store, why wait till Sunday (when the store is closed and Pentax Canada is also closed). It doesn't smell kosher to me.

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04-05-2009, 10:06 AM	#31
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013 Original Poster	Consumer protection laws in Québec are among the best in Canada. Quite a few retailers from other provinces don't want to deal with Québec because of the Consumer Protection laws we have. By the way, I inquired with my "ex" dealer about my lenses, and they should be in store early this week.

04-05-2009, 11:39 AM	#32
stewart_photo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,864	Originally posted by KrisK10D (snip) Stewart you take internet reading comprehension to a whole new sub-level! Do you really think that calling a customer, who's already paid for his goods, and telling them they have 2 options, pay up or cancel, is not modifying a contract? (snip) No, I suggest checking your own reading comprehension. The original message said... "The day after, the shop owner called me back and told me there was a huge increase in prices on April 1st, and some of the lenses would come in only after. He then asked me if I wanted to cancel those lenses or pay the difference in price." In other words, he didn't just give two options, but instead explained the situation before doing so. As far as I can see, the dealer acted entirely reasonable here. No laws were broken and Yves (the OP) is getting his lenses at the lower price. The only person harmed in this situation is the dealer getting little or nothing (and perhaps even losing money) out of the deal. Quote: (snip) So, I'll make it simple for you... you can't change the price of an item you've already sold to someone. Sorry if 3 syllables is too hard for you to comprehend Okay, since you can't seem to comprehend what I'm saying, I'll make it simple for you. Read the original message again. Once again, the dealer didn't change the price of the item sold. Instead, he called the buyer to explain a bad situation on a backorder item that wasn't going to be available until after a price increase (something the dealer in this case obviously didn't know until actually ordering the item) and then asked. When the buyer refused to pay the actual price of the lens he certainly intends to enjoy, the dealer agreed to deliver the lens at the price agreed to before this new information (the delay and price increase) was discovered. Finally, to all those talking about the dealer paying when the item is ordered, that's not how business works. The dealer orders the item and is not invoiced until the item is shipped. If his supplier (which is more likely a wholesaler rather than Pentax) raises the price before shipping a backordered item, the dealer is given an option to either cancel or pay the difference - the exact same options the dealer gave the person posting the original message. stewart

04-05-2009, 03:18 PM	#33
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013 Original Poster	Stewart, The laws in Germany, the States and Canada are not the same. I own a business, and when I order an item, my suppliers bill me at the time of shipping with the price AT THE TIME of the order. And my store supplier is indeed Pentax (Canada). I don't really see a company like Pentax trying to cheat their distributor, unless they are complete a$$ hole (that might be the case). If I hadn't checked which laws apply to my ordering of those lenses, I'm reasonably sure he would have put more pressure to get more money out of the deal. And, beside, when he got into business, he knew he couldn't win all the time. Most of the time you win, but once in a while, you (or one of your employee) make a mistake and you loose a few feathers. When I bought the lenses, he checked the prices online with Pentax, so even if the lenses were back order, he had the right price at the time of the order, which should be the billing price. I think he was trying to put some money directly in his pocket.

04-06-2009, 12:02 PM	#34
poco Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 153	Originally posted by flyer By the way, I inquired with my "ex" dealer about my lenses, and they should be in store early this week. Since you tweaked his ego, and he replied with an emotional response, I would inspect all the lenses before leaving the store very thoroughly. I would also check beforehand what any laws say about damaged goods, or gray market goods, in this rare case. You probably won't need it, but if you do you had better know what your rights are. It might also be good to go in with a witness. I know, paranoia, but ...

04-06-2009, 04:02 PM	#35
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 14,839	Originally posted by flyer Stewart, The laws in Germany, the States and Canada are not the same. I own a business, and when I order an item, my suppliers bill me at the time of shipping with the price AT THE TIME of the order. And my store supplier is indeed Pentax (Canada). I don't really see a company like Pentax trying to cheat their distributor, unless they are complete a$$ hole (that might be the case). If I hadn't checked which laws apply to my ordering of those lenses, I'm reasonably sure he would have put more pressure to get more money out of the deal. And, beside, when he got into business, he knew he couldn't win all the time. Most of the time you win, but once in a while, you (or one of your employee) make a mistake and you loose a few feathers. When I bought the lenses, he checked the prices online with Pentax, so even if the lenses were back order, he had the right price at the time of the order, which should be the billing price. I think he was trying to put some money directly in his pocket. The price is locked in at the time the product is paid for. Pentax has to honour the price as advertised at the time the product is paid for, whether or not there is a back order situation. Your dealer shouldn't be out any money, he took the order in good faith that the price he was charging was the actual price, since Pentax had that price in their list at the time of ordering. It might be different if an order had been placed but not paid for, but as soon as the product is paid for, the price is locked in at the distributor level. Stewart, in Canada, Pentax is the supplier for Pentax equipment, there is no third party distribution here. Yves, you should check to make sure my summation is correct, if it is, then your dealer is getting a bad rap from Pentax, in which case you and your dealer are actually on the same side, which might go a long way to patching up the bad feelings.

04-06-2009, 10:18 PM	#36
KrisK10D Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,274	Originally posted by stewart_photo No, I suggest checking your own reading comprehension. The original message said... "The day after, the shop owner called me back and told me there was a huge increase in prices on April 1st, and some of the lenses would come in only after. He then asked me if I wanted to cancel those lenses or pay the difference in price." In other words, he didn't just give two options, but instead explained the situation before doing so. As far as I can see, the dealer acted entirely reasonable here. No laws were broken and Yves (the OP) is getting his lenses at the lower price. The only person harmed in this situation is the dealer getting little or nothing (and perhaps even losing money) out of the deal. I'm glad you can snip post to make your argument, Stewart... here's the complete post. Originally posted by flyer A short while ago, I had some of my lenses stolen. I didn't mention it before because they were insured, and we all have our problems to deal with. While waiting for the insurance company to pay for my loss, I went to my regular dealer to have a quote on replacement. When I got paid by the insurance company, I went back to the store and ordered the lenses, and paid cash, even though some lenses were back order. The day after, the shop owner called me back and told me there was a huge increase in prices on April 1st, and some of the lenses would come in only after. He then asked me if I wanted to cancel those lenses or pay the difference in price. I inquired with Québec's Consumer Protection Office, and they told me a bill of sale was a binding contract between the buyer and the seller, and the parties can't unilaterally change it. When I called back the dealer to let him know that I wanted the lens and he couldn't change anything to the contract, he told me he'd ordered the lens, but after that, I was "personna non grata" in his store. I'll point out to you that I made bold the important information that you seem to have disregarded yet again! Also, I recon that if the insurance company were informed that the sale price had increased after they were paid for, they'd be seriously thinking about sending the retailer/supplier/manufacturer a letter suggesting that fraud is a criminal offense. Originally posted by stewart_photo Okay, since you can't seem to comprehend what I'm saying, I'll make it simple for you. Read the original message again. Once again, the dealer didn't change the price of the item sold. Instead, he called the buyer to explain a bad situation on a backorder item that wasn't going to be available until after a price increase (something the dealer in this case obviously didn't know until actually ordering the item) and then asked. When the buyer refused to pay the actual price of the lens he certainly intends to enjoy, the dealer agreed to deliver the lens at the price agreed to before this new information (the delay and price increase) was discovered. Finally, to all those talking about the dealer paying when the item is ordered, that's not how business works. The dealer orders the item and is not invoiced until the item is shipped. If his supplier (which is more likely a wholesaler rather than Pentax) raises the price before shipping a backordered item, the dealer is given an option to either cancel or pay the difference - the exact same options the dealer gave the person posting the original message. stewart backorder schmakorder... means absolutely zero in this instance. See above! My god some people make things so much more difficult than it should be.

04-07-2009, 01:53 PM	#37
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013 Original Poster	Hey guys (and gals), I got my lenses today. All of them, and when I picked them up at the store, they were still in the box Pentax Canada used to ship them. The label said they were shipped on March 31st. I'd like to know how the store managed to have them, since the store owner was supposedly told by Pentax (on a Sunday, no less) there was no way they were going to be delivered before April 1st. At this point, I can only speculate, but I personally think the guy was trying to make some extra on my purchase. Now, I'll be busy this evening checking them all out. A pleasant evening.

04-08-2009, 07:31 AM	#38
stewart_photo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,864	Originally posted by flyer The laws in Germany, the States and Canada are not the same. I'm well aware of that, Yves. Especially since I've lived and done business in all three countries - most recently Seattle (USA), Victoria (BC/Canada), and Heidelberg (Germany). And, yes, I also know there are differences within each of those countries. Quote: I own a business, and when I order an item, my suppliers bill me at the time of shipping with the price AT THE TIME of the order. And my store supplier is indeed Pentax (Canada). (snip) Since potential loss could be staggering, I'm not personally aware of any supplier who would routinely agree to be locked into a price for expensive items they do not currently have in stock. They might do so for common items where price is reasonably assured or low cost items where price changes are typically small, but not expensive items. You seem to be unusually aware of this dealer's business, but I can't really comment further since I'm just not aware of his suppliers or any agreements he might have with those suppliers. stewart

04-08-2009, 07:52 AM	#39
stewart_photo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,864	Originally posted by KrisK10D (snip) I'll point out to you that I made bold the important information that you seem to have disregarded yet again! (snip) ..the sale price had increased after they were paid for ... a letter suggesting that fraud is a criminal offense. (snip) Okay, in what way have I disregarded the information you've highlighted? We all know Yves (the OP) paid for the items and that the items were backordered. Those facts have been repeated mentioned, in some form or another, by me and most others here. However, that doesn't defend what you said earlier. Again, the dealer did not just say "pay up or cancel," as you said (and I replied to). Instead, the dealer explained the situation, asked what the buyer wanted to do, and then agreed to deliver at the original price. Yves did not pay more for the lenses and a discusion is neither "fraud" nor a "criminal offense." So, which of those evidently complex facts do you not comprehend? stewart

04-08-2009, 07:58 AM	#40
RBellavance Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Near Montréal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by flyer I got my lenses today. All of them, and when I picked them up at the store, they were still in the box Pentax Canada used to ship them. The label said they were shipped on March 31st. I'd like to know how the store managed to have them, since the store owner was supposedly told by Pentax (on a Sunday, no less) there was no way they were going to be delivered before April 1st. At this point, I can only speculate, but I personally think the guy was trying to make some extra on my purchase. Now, I'll be busy this evening checking them all out. A pleasant evening. Glad to read you got everything in good shape. Care to name the store in question ? Or give us a hint on its identity ?

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04-08-2009, 07:59 AM	#41
stewart_photo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,864	Originally posted by flyer (snip) The label said they were shipped on March 31st. I'd like to know how the store managed to have them, since the store owner was supposedly told by Pentax (on a Sunday, no less) there was no way they were going to be delivered before April 1st. (snip) Huh? If the lenses were shipped on March 31st, they quite obviously were not going to be delivered before April 1st (the very next day). stewart

04-08-2009, 08:30 AM	#42
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 14,839	Originally posted by stewart_photo Huh? If the lenses were shipped on March 31st, they quite obviously were not going to be delivered before April 1st (the very next day). stewart OTOH, they WERE shipped prior to the April 1st price increase, which means the cost price pretty much had to be the pre increase price.

04-08-2009, 08:53 AM	#43
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013 Original Poster	Originally posted by RBellavance Glad to read you got everything in good shape. Care to name the store in question ? Or give us a hint on its identity ? I bought the lenses at C.D.M. Photo in St.-Jérome. Qc. What is suspicious is that I ordered the lenses on a Friday afternoon at around 3:30pm. If the stored placed the order with Pentax right away using internet, I don't see Pentax checking the order right away, verifying everything is in stock, and if not checking with whoever in the States or Japan when the missing lensees (if any) are going to be shipped and calling the store back before closing time to let them know about the back order item. And to top it off, if Pentax Canada had communicated with the store, why wait till Sunday (when the store is closed and Pentax Canada is also closed). It doesn't smell kosher to me.