[JeanChris]

Hi all,

After asking for advice here on a macro lens for insect-work, I'm a very glad owner of the Sigma 105mm macro.
I would like to share a few findings, but mostly I hope to get some advice.

Out in the field, I've tried various combinations with either or neither my (manual) ring-flash and tripod.

Firstly, I've found using the tripod is quite frustrating for various reasons (its weight, it doesn't go lower than 2 feet, the time needed to set it up and the fact that the critters don't stay long in one place...) so I mostly shoot my macros handheld (with and without flash).

Second, I've found that handholding at speeds less than 1/125 yields mostly unsharp pictures, which kind of makes sense (for a 105mm lens) but surprises me considering my camera has in-camera Image Stabilization. I've read IS is less effective for macro because of forward/backward movement, but was hoping to shoot at least at 1/60. Do you think IS is giving me any advantage, or should I turn it off ? (as with tripod)

Lastly, I've found that using the ring-flash mounted on the lens gives flat pictures (like on-camera flash, which I guess it is). My ringflash uses a PC cord, so I use it off-camera holding it close and to the side of the bugs, and control the amount of light by varying aperture or distance of flash. (Somehow, I feel I'm missing the point of the ringflash). What sort of flash setup do you use ? Would I really benefit from a dedicated flash with TTL metering and cordless sync like fgz360 ?

thanks for comments/advice
Jean-Christophe

ps : I realize too late (and apologize) that I should not have posted this on "Lens Discussion" but on "General Pentax Photography" instead.

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Last edited by JeanChris; 05-27-2009 at 03:12 PM. Reason: (wrong thread)

[Lowell Goudge]

With respect to macro and IS, there are 2 issues

IS does nothing with respect to motion towards or away from the subject, the IS only works in the film/sensor plane. only a tripod will help in this area.

With respect to the effectiveness of IS for other vibration, again, as you approach 1:1 the relitive motion of the image projected on the sensor is increased therefore I would not expect the sensor based stabilization to be capable of compensating to the same degree.

The only real way to do macro successfully is with a tripod, when getting really close, or with much higher ISO to permit hand holding and small aperture (for maximum depth of field)

[chirpy]

For insect macros, I use a monopod and a ball head for my macro work with the Pentax AF160FC ring flash and usually use f/16 (before the ringflash I used on a Metz 48AF with a good diffuser). I always have SR on. Focusing takes practice. The best way is to leave the lens on 1:1 focus (or pre-focus to approximately the right distance) and gently move the camera on the monopod backwards and forwards with the shutter release half-pressed until you see the insects eyes in focus and then shoot. Using this method I get around an 80%+ in focus rate.

I mainly use a Sigma 180mm Macro, but also a Pentax DFA 100mm macro.

[Ash]

It's quite a skill - you need very steady hands to get the focal plane just right and hit the shutter as soon as focus is just right to get the best results. Therein lies the challenge with capturing moving objects.

There's more latitude if shooting not so close up, given the larger DOF, but then you compromise on detail. So extra light may be needed to be able to shoot handheld at very small apertures like f/22-32 to ensure the DOF is sufficient. Although it's best to ensure the subject is in the flattest vertical plane possible to get as much of it in focus that way as well.

A 100mm lens as f/32 still only permits a few millimeters of sharpness at 31cm away from the subject!

[res3567]

Just got my Raynox today and I am already having these issues! Yes it is gone take a lot of practice to get the best shots and I was getting frustrated pretty quickly.

I also thought I could get closer farther away as my Tamron 70-300 has macro mode with a 1:2 ratio from about 3ft away at 180-300mm focal lenght. I captured a spider and it is in the Tammy club.

But when I put my Raynox on I realized it won't do that at all; I have to focus close regardless if the lens is in macro mode or not.

You think just because you have mastered the DSLR game you can do anything.

I have to think again for macro shots.

But it is a challenge I am willing to take and I think with time and practice, I will be poping those li'l critters left and right in sharp focus!

Hi Jean-Christophe, why don't you post a couple of shots to show us what you mean.
Also give us some information about what settings you are using, aperture etc.
It's not easy to hand hold with macro and if you're holding the flash with one hand, that makes it even harder.

Tripod is definitely the way to go for best results. You just need to study the creatures you want to photograph and anticipate their behaviour. When you shoot can also make a difference. Early in the morning is usually the best time as that is when insects are less active. As the sun warms them, they become more active.



Moved to correct forum.

[OregonJim]

A ring flash mounted on the lens does give rather flat lighting. After all, that is what it was desiged for! If you want more interesting light, try adding a reflector off to the side to give some shadow depth.

If your tripod is too cumbersome, try a poor man's tripod - make a loop of nylon cord, fasten one end to the camera's tripod hole (the D-ring on a QR plate works nicely), and stand on the other end with feet slightly apart so that the loop forms a triangle. Pull up to make it taught before shooting. It should be much more maneuverable when chasing bugs than a conventional tripod - just be careful not to trip yourself and drop the camera. Don't ask me how I know...

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Last edited by OregonJim; 05-27-2009 at 11:02 PM.

[res3567]

A ring flash mounted on the lens does give rather flat lighting. After all, that is what it was desiged for! If you want more interesting light, try adding a reflector off to the side to give some shadow depth.

If your tripod is too cumbersome, try a poor man's tripod - make a loop of nylon cord, fasten one end to the camera's tripod hole (the D-ring on a QR plate works nicely), and stand on the other end with feet slightly apart so that the loop forms a triangle. Pull up to make it taught before shooting. It should be much more maneuverable when chasing bugs than a conventional tripod - just be careful not to trip yourself and drop the camera. Don't ask me how I know...

Can you show pics of this and your macro pics?

[newarts]

Focal length for IS purposes is multiplied by (1+magnification).

This is because the image shift due to a small rotation of the camera about its lens is proportional to the distance from the lens to the sensor; for macros this is f(1+m).

I don't know how to tell the camera to use a different focal length for IS purposes with automatic lenses. Even when one can tell the camera to use a longer focal length (with a manual lens) the in-out focus problem remains.

Iowa Dave

[JeanChris]

Hi Jean-Christophe, why don't you post a couple of shots to show us what you mean.
Also give us some information about what settings you are using, aperture etc.
It's not easy to hand hold with macro and if you're holding the flash with one hand, that makes it even harder.

Tripod is definitely the way to go for best results. You just need to study the creatures you want to photograph and anticipate their behaviour. When you shoot can also make a difference. Early in the morning is usually the best time asthat is when insects are less active. As the sun warms them, they become more active.

Gary,
Here are a few of my sharper pics (more here) :




Only the first is with flash (holding the ring-flash and the end of the lens on my left hand). The others are shot in direct sunlight, my camera set on shutter speed priority at 1/125th, and iso 200 (aperture varies but it's usually around 11).

I think about 10% of my handheld shots are sharp enough (due both to movement and focus). Shooting even at 1/90 gives 99% blurred results, and shooting faster would mean sacrificing dof.

[NaClH2O]

Hi Jean Chris
As you are finding out macro photography is a challenge. The shots you've posted are pretty good actually. For hand holding macros (and I respectfully disagree with Lowell, you can get decent hand held macros) I use the same technique that I use for normal low light shooting. I pay particular to my stance, feet are about shoulder width apart, my dominant leg/foot (right in my case) is about one foot (.3M) behind the other and my weight is on my back foot. (this helps negate the forward/back movement of your body) My elbows are close into my body and when I'm ready to shoot, I hold my breath and slowly and carefully press the shutter. The shutter firing should actually be somewhat of a surprise. If you stab at the shutter two things happen, a) you induce movement into the camera, and b) you instinctively lean forward a bit, destroying your carefully created focus point.
Chirpy's suggestion of using a monopod is a good one. When using a monopod I usually open my stance a bit and place the monopod between my legs and back so my two legs and the monopod for a triangle. I then do what chirpy does, slowly move the monopod until I've gotten the focus point I desire.
One final suggestion and that is to practice on something that doesn't move! Flowers, jewelry, found objects, anything with enough small detail will do.

NaCl(hope that helps)H2O

[Maffer]

What I find even more frustrating is that even a tiny gust of wind will completely destroy macro shots by moving that leaf around a bit (or whatever the subject is). If I use 2sec delay for mirror lockup the wind might kick in just before shutter is released. Not even shutter speeds of 1/500 or more can save the shot.

What comes to monopod and a lense without tri/monopod mount, I found it useful to actually support the hand supporting the lens with the monopod (if the lens if big enough and thus requires supporting). Not the camera itself. Then your lens supporting hand acts like a ballhead.

[heatherslightbox]

Ever since attending a nature photography workshop last month, I've become a believer in the effectiveness of a good tripod and cable release in getting good natural light macro shots. Since you mentioned that your tripod doesn't go any lower than 2 feet, you might want to check a couple of things--does it have braces between the legs (generally found on video tripods, and can the center colum be removed? If your tripod does have braces between the legs, then it's time to go shopping for another tripod. Better tripods for macro will have separate legs, which can each be moved independently--depending on the tripod, you may be able to extend the legs out to where the tripod is sitting almost flat on the ground, assuming that you're able to remove the center column and attach your head directly to the top of the tripod itself.

One of the things that comes with macro photography is that you generally can't do it on the fly--either in setting everything up or waiting for just the right time to hit the shutter button. When the right time comes and you do get the good shot, it's most definitely worth it.

HTH,
Heather

[danielchtong]

Hi all,

After asking for advice here on a macro lens for insect-work, I'm a very glad owner of the Sigma 105mm macro.
I would like to share a few findings, but mostly I hope to get some advice.

Out in the field, I've tried various combinations with either or neither my (manual) ring-flash and tripod.

Firstly, I've found using the tripod is quite frustrating for various reasons (its weight, it doesn't go lower than 2 feet, the time needed to set it up and the fact that the critters don't stay long in one place...) so I mostly shoot my macros handheld (with and without flash).

Second, I've found that handholding at speeds less than 1/125 yields mostly unsharp pictures, which kind of makes sense (for a 105mm lens) but surprises me considering my camera has in-camera Image Stabilization. I've read IS is less effective for macro because of forward/backward movement, but was hoping to shoot at least at 1/60. Do you think IS is giving me any advantage, or should I turn it off ? (as with tripod)

Lastly, I've found that using the ring-flash mounted on the lens gives flat pictures (like on-camera flash, which I guess it is). My ringflash uses a PC cord, so I use it off-camera holding it close and to the side of the bugs, and control the amount of light by varying aperture or distance of flash. (Somehow, I feel I'm missing the point of the ringflash). What sort of flash setup do you use ? Would I really benefit from a dedicated flash with TTL metering and cordless sync like fgz360 ?

thanks for comments/advice
Jean-Christophe

ps : I realize too late (and apologize) that I should not have posted this on "Lens Discussion" but on "General Pentax Photography" instead.

I would suggest each of the following

1. Max out on iso 800 if no t1600
2. Use a monopod
3. Try turn off SR, use burst mode and MF , set the distance to around 1 inch more than the subject distance and fire non-stop while moving toward the subject. There are really mobile subject and you need to go faster. If you are not familiar with this macro method, use fixed subject as trial first. Some of my macro are done this way. One thing I want to stress is that you are to waste the first image and you can get rid of the vibration as brought in by you pressing the shutter. And that is why SR is not needed


This one is a typical as the subject just would not allow you to focus at all


http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?id=11567


You can use your whole body to do manual focus which is the norm and very useful for all macro shots

Second, I've found that handholding at speeds less than 1/125 yields mostly unsharp pictures, which kind of makes sense (for a 105mm lens) but surprises me considering my camera has in-camera Image Stabilization. I've read IS is less effective for macro because of forward/backward movement, but was hoping to shoot at least at 1/60. Do you think IS is giving me any advantage, or should I turn it off ? (as with tripod)
Jean-Christophe

Any possibility that you may have front or back focusing on the part of your new lens? Double check that. Sound weird indeed if you are not shooting mobile subjects




Daniel

[danielchtong]

I think about 10% of my handheld shots are sharp enough (due both to movement and focus). Shooting even at 1/90 gives 99% blurred results, and shooting faster would mean sacrificing dof.

Why? Macro typical setting is F11-19.














And these were done with on board flash at F16 ( handholding a DL with no SR and a heavy FA100mmF2.8). Even at F16 the DoF is still little

One of the things that comes with macro photography is that you generally can't do it on the fly--
Heather

Unless u are only shooting flowers or snails. When you are out in the field you need to be mobile and a monopod is the best practical support



Daniel