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07-18-2009, 09:47 AM   #1
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ND Grad filters

If I was going to buy ND grad filters to shoot sunsets, what stops would be most useful? I know alot of people combine hard edge with soft edge when doing this. So what would be the beast combination? -----Stoge

07-18-2009, 10:01 AM   #2
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Hi Stoge, first off welcome to the forum!!!

Here's a recent post from within my upcoming workshop:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/668749-post158.html

Summary from within that post:

• ND.3 (exposure adjustment = 1 stop, reduces ISO 1/2)
• ND.6 (exposure adjustment = 2 stops, reduces ISO 1/4)
• ND.9 (exposure adjustment = 3 stops, reduces ISO 1/8)

This is the normal range you wish to have under consideration. I have to head out the door for a while, but I can respond upon my return or someone else can chime in. Soft edge vs. hard edge depends on your most-often encountered situations. There are also reverse graduated (IIRC the name correctly) ND filters for a specific kind of sunrise/sunset.

Regards,
Marc
07-18-2009, 10:05 AM   #3
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Hmm, are there any ND grads exceeding 3 stops? I don't like the idea of stacking multiple ones. Cokin plastic ones cause horrible flares and soften the image when stacked.
07-18-2009, 10:31 AM   #4
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Yes, much more than that - easily 2.2. You'll have to pay for better filters to combine or stack them.

Regards,
Marc

QuoteOriginally posted by Maffer Quote
Hmm, are there any ND grads exceeding 3 stops? I don't like the idea of stacking multiple ones. Cokin plastic ones cause horrible flares and soften the image when stacked.



Last edited by Marc Langille; 07-18-2009 at 12:21 PM. Reason: typos corrected - sent on mobile phone
07-18-2009, 10:48 AM   #5
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Thanks for bringing this up

QuoteOriginally posted by stoge Quote
If I was going to buy ND grad filters to shoot sunsets, what stops would be most useful? I know alot of people combine hard edge with soft edge when doing this. So what would be the beast combination? -----Stoge
I am really glad you asked this question, I'm kind of a newbie to the whole filter thing also so I will be following this thread.

I will be buying some filters in the next couple of weeks for a workshop that I am going to in September, so I will share what I have learned to date.

I don't believe there are any hard fast rules to nd filters, it's more about the effect that you are trying to achieve, from what I have read a two stop soft is probably a good starting point but that will depend on the length of lens you plan on using, if you were going say above a 100mm lens you may want to look at the hard edge.

I will let Marc take the lead on this, for he is the teacher and I am just a student.

I think for me, I will start off by buying a 1 and 2 stop soft and a 2 stop hard. This will allow me a fair range to start with and allow me to get to 4 stops with just a single stack.

I believe I will be buying the 4" X 5.25" Hitech filters with the Cokin Z filter holder.

I hope this was of some help.

John
07-18-2009, 12:09 PM   #6
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Hi-Tech

John's suggestion and statements are good ones - it depends on what you wish to achieve!

BTW, I've seen some excellent results from the Hi-Tech brand - very high quality vs. price point... however resin (even if tougher material) are usually more prone to scratching. IIRC, Singh-Ray makes glass versions (have to check though) and a few others are top shelf and are top dollar.

John: did you see any US dealers that had the Hi-Tech kits of 3 available with a wallet? I am familiar with the manufacturers' website in the UK for Hi-Tech, but not looked domestically yet...

EDIT: there are mixed feelings on the usefulness of only using the ND3, since little light is blocked - only 1 stop. It can be useful on hazy days though - don't discount that possibility! Higher ND factor filters are generally the more often used ones (not discounting stacking of course).

Regarding ND3: Try it on any day with any clouds in the sky, especially an overcast day, for improved cloud detail and texture. It will also darken a blue sky a little in those situations when a polarizer won't due to the angle. Make sure when you choose a brand that you take them out into the sunight, lay them on a sheet of white paper and look closely for a color cast (slightly green or blue usually). You may be suprised (dismayed) at the results. I've been surprised by results in very good name brands, and by how different 'lots' from the same company can look. If it doesn't look neutral gray you'll either have to try to return them or compensate for the color cast in your images.


Thanks,
Marc

Last edited by Marc Langille; 07-18-2009 at 12:27 PM.
07-18-2009, 12:14 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maffer Quote
Hmm, are there any ND grads exceeding 3 stops? I don't like the idea of stacking multiple ones. Cokin plastic ones cause horrible flares and soften the image when stacked.

Here's a more complete listing and explanation - taken from a website to save me some time:


Neutral Density filters have four main uses:
  • To enable slow shutter speeds to be used, especially with high speed films, to record movement in subjects such as waterfalls, clouds, or cars
  • To decrease depth of field by allowing wider apertures to be used, which helps separate subjects from their background
  • To decrease the effective ISO of high speed film/digital (above ISO 400) and allow it to be used outdoors in bright situations
  • To allow cine and video cameras (which have fixed shutter speeds) to film subjects such as snow, sand or other bright scenes which could cause overexposure

Neutral Density factors
:
  • ND.3 (exposure adjustment = 1 stop, reduces ISO 1/2)
  • ND.6 (exposure adjustment = 2 stops, reduces ISO 1/4)
  • ND.9 (exposure adjustment = 3 stops, reduces ISO 1/8)
  • ND 1.8 (exposure adjustment = approx. 6 stops, transmits 1% of light,)
  • ND 3.0 (exposure adjustment = 10 stops, transmits 0.1% of light)
  • ND 4.0 (exposure adjustment = 13-2/3 stops, transmits 0.01% of light)
  • ND 6.0 = (exposure adjustment = approx. 20 stops)


07-18-2009, 12:26 PM   #8
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Hard or soft edge - which is best?

General usage guide...

Graduated soft edge: usually for less defined landscapes - tree covered or uneven horizons, etc.

Graduated hard edge: well defined horizons.

For straighter lines at the point of transition, a hard-edge grad will be your best choice, but for areas where the transition isn't strait, the soft edge would be best.

Don't use them (CPL and ND) at the same time - not recommended to to potential color cast issues.

Last edited by Marc Langille; 07-18-2009 at 01:41 PM. Reason: typos
07-18-2009, 12:47 PM   #9
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So......

I am looking to build a filter system that gives me a good base to grow on, so know that I think more about it, it makes sense to go with a 2 and 3 stop soft, but which would be better starting point a 2 or 3 stop hard? I'm leaning towards a 2. So would it also make sense to get a solid in a 1 or 2 stop to add to the mix.

I'm still looking for the kit, I read that they are available but I didn't save the web site where I read it.

time to do some more surfing.
07-18-2009, 01:07 PM   #10
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John, I realized I made some mistakes in my typing. Please review my last post again. It's corrected - sorry about that!!
07-18-2009, 03:04 PM   #11
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Marc, this is the closest thing I have found to a kit for the Hitech. Cokin Z holder, adapter ring of your choice and 1 Hitech 4X5 Grad nd of your choice. No carry case.

Here is the link
Hitech 4x5 Cokin Z package

Not sure but we may have taken over Stoge's thread. I hope he comes back.........

John
07-18-2009, 04:47 PM   #12
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Thanks Marc and Skinja for the input, your help is greatly appreciated! I'm going to the beach soon, so I'll be using the filters there as well as general landscape around Northern Virginia and Shenandoah NP where I live. Thanks again-- Stoge
07-18-2009, 05:04 PM   #13
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I'll probablly be using my 16-45 for most of my pics, I was planning on going with the cokin holder with singh-ray filters, but I'm unsure of whether to get the P series or the A series. Which one is better or more usable?
07-18-2009, 05:54 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by stoge Quote
I'll probablly be using my 16-45 for most of my pics, I was planning on going with the cokin holder with singh-ray filters, but I'm unsure of whether to get the P series or the A series. Which one is better or more usable?
I am glad to help it's nice to be on the other side for a change, I'm usually the one asking all the questions.

What's the filter size on the 16-45? do you ever plan on getting any thing that uses the 77mm thread? like the sig 10-20, 16-50, 50-135, 70-200.

for me I would get the biggest size needed to allow you to utilize future lenses with out having to buy the set of filters again.

Make sure you post some pictures.
07-19-2009, 08:16 AM   #15
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I have kind of come to think of the HDR filter as being the best for most anything that one would use an ND filter for.
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