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F8&Bthere · 07-18-2009, 11:18 AM

I know there are probably many books and great websites (like the strobist one) that have lengthy explanations of flash technique but I'm just looking for a few quick tips here. The only flash I own is an old AF220T, and according to my reading it's voltage is a bit risky to use on my K10D. I don't use flash much, but when I do I prefer off camera anyways. So I got one of those cheap little peanut slave triggers and I've been playing around with it from time to time. Usually in day time trying to use it for fill flash.

I know because of the flash features and way I am using it, it is basically full power all the time (this model has no manual adjustments). So I try to adjust it's distance from the subject, along with my camera settings. Of course, my exposure is all over the map. It apparently does not seem as simple as a consistent stop or two of exposure comp to factor in the additional light. I sometimes get terribly underexposed shots too. Can anyone at least get me pointed in the right direction?

MrApollinax · 07-18-2009, 11:28 AM

Strobist: Lighting 101

Hope this helps.

tcdk · 07-19-2009, 11:19 PM

You need to experiment, but basically you have two options:

1. Full manual - find a shutter speed, where you have room to work the aperture both ways.

2. Aperture priority, with negative Exposure Compensation. If you underexpose one stop, you "just" have to add one stop with the flash each time, to get a good exposure.

The important thing here is that you do not want the camera to change the aperture on you. You want to control that, as that's what has an impact on how much flash is used - shutter speed has no impact in how much light from the flash hits the sensor.

Things to remember:
* Keep shutter speed lower then 1/180
* Underexpose internal flash as much as possible, so that it doesn't light the subject
* If you bounce the flash of something it will be a lot weaker (but softer), then if you shine it directly at your subject

Here's a few from yesterday at the Airplane Museum, where I used the second technique on my kids...

Full set here: Strobing the kids at the Airplane Museum - a set on Flickr

**Ash** · 07-20-2009, 12:53 AM

It limits you profoundly having to have only one power setting on your flash for off-camera lighting.
If you're investing in triggers, then it's worth investing into a decent flash unit, one that has at least 3 power settings (1/1, 1/2, 1/4), and has a good guide number (power intensity).

The favoured manual unit by many is the Vivitar 283 series.
Hope these suggestions help.

tcdk · 07-20-2009, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Ash

The favoured manual unit by many is the Vivitar 283 series.
Hope these suggestions help.

Or if you are really cheap, look for a YN460 or YN462 on ebay (I used a YN462 for this, but I actually like the YN460 better)

tcdk · 07-20-2009, 01:28 AM

Oh, last tip for one speed flashs...: feather the light - that is use the edge of the light that come from the flash, as it's a lot weaker then the center spot.

SALUKIS97 · 07-20-2009, 07:23 AM

tcdk,

Love those shots. Especially the second one. Great exposure. I've got a question, if you don't mind, about the second shot:

Did you place the flash down in the floor, or were you just holding it? Were you using any type of diffuser on your flash?

F8&Bthere · 07-20-2009, 07:40 AM

tcdk, thanks that was the kind of thing I was looking for. I think my problem in some cases was that I was maxing out shutter to 1/180. And also I wasn't dialing down the pop-up flash. I'll play around with your recommendations.

Ash, yes eventually I should at least get a flash with settings even if it's a Vivitar or YN, but I've been resisting as I don't do much artificial lighting and I have gear in another brand that I have a good name brand ttl flash in. The peanut only cost me like $5 on ebay and I already owned the AF220T from my Pentax film days.

Mike Cash · 07-20-2009, 07:46 AM

Can't believe no one has pointed out the old-school method of using the Guide Number to calculate aperture.

There's nothing hard about it. Take your flash's GN (in feet or meters) and divide the flash-subject distance into that. The result is your aperture.

So if your flash's GN is 22 (meters) and your subject is 2m away then your aperture would be f11.

That would be for ISO100, of course. Adjust accordingly if using a different ISO.

EDIT: Meant to say "flash-subject" distance. (Camera-subject distance is pretty much irrelevant).

F8&Bthere · 07-20-2009, 08:05 AM

Excellent, thanks for reminding me of that formula Mike!

Mike Cash · 07-20-2009, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by F8&Bthere

Excellent, thanks for reminding me of that formula Mike!

You're quite welcome. I used it yesterday myself to manually set a flash even though it has an auto sensor. I was aiming it at the flow of a waterfall and had more confidence in the distance between the flash and the water remaining constant than I did in the reflected light to the sensor.

res3567 · 07-20-2009, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Mike Cash

the flash-subject distance into that. ISO.

EDIT: Meant to say "flash-subject" distance. (Camera-subject distance is pretty much irrelevant).

You did say the right thing the first time Mike.

GeneV · 07-21-2009, 06:42 AM

Digital cameras with histogram views immediately following the shot have made this much less of a black art anyway. Once you do this a few times, it is amazing how few chimps it takes to find the spot. I've taken far more bad shots with P-TTL than chimping and then working off that setting in manual.

tcdk · 08-15-2009, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by SALUKIS97

tcdk,

Love those shots. Especially the second one. Great exposure. I've got a question, if you don't mind, about the second shot:

Did you place the flash down in the floor, or were you just holding it? Were you using any type of diffuser on your flash?

Sorry, about the late reply - I forgot to subscribe to this thread.

Second shot is a combination of direct and bounce, there weren't really anything good to bounce if, so I just placed the flash inside some the controls and let the light bounce around, and some of it hit him directly..

No diffuser.

When I have flash in one hand and camera in the other I always go for:

1. Bounce the flash of something.
2. Place the flash somewhere, so that I can get a hand to work the zoom
3. If bounce is impossible, direct flash, but very low power.

MJB DIGITAL · 08-15-2009, 01:57 PM

When I'm out on a job with a slave in the daylight, I tend to just put the slave over on the shadow side of the subject and fill it from the side. Sounds boring, I know, but you would be suprised at the results when you work with it.

07-18-2009, 11:18 AM	#1
F8&Bthere Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Western Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 37	Tips for using non-ttl flash off camera I know there are probably many books and great websites (like the strobist one) that have lengthy explanations of flash technique but I'm just looking for a few quick tips here. The only flash I own is an old AF220T, and according to my reading it's voltage is a bit risky to use on my K10D. I don't use flash much, but when I do I prefer off camera anyways. So I got one of those cheap little peanut slave triggers and I've been playing around with it from time to time. Usually in day time trying to use it for fill flash. I know because of the flash features and way I am using it, it is basically full power all the time (this model has no manual adjustments). So I try to adjust it's distance from the subject, along with my camera settings. Of course, my exposure is all over the map. It apparently does not seem as simple as a consistent stop or two of exposure comp to factor in the additional light. I sometimes get terribly underexposed shots too. Can anyone at least get me pointed in the right direction?

07-20-2009, 01:03 AM	#5
tcdk Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 279	Originally posted by Ash The favoured manual unit by many is the Vivitar 283 series. Hope these suggestions help. Or if you are really cheap, look for a YN460 or YN462 on ebay (I used a YN462 for this, but I actually like the YN460 better) Last edited by tcdk; 07-20-2009 at 01:04 AM. Reason: Better spelling of "or" ;)

07-20-2009, 07:46 AM	#9
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	Can't believe no one has pointed out the old-school method of using the Guide Number to calculate aperture. There's nothing hard about it. Take your flash's GN (in feet or meters) and divide the flash-subject distance into that. The result is your aperture. So if your flash's GN is 22 (meters) and your subject is 2m away then your aperture would be f11. That would be for ISO100, of course. Adjust accordingly if using a different ISO. EDIT: Meant to say "flash-subject" distance. (Camera-subject distance is pretty much irrelevant). Last edited by Mike Cash; 07-20-2009 at 08:28 AM.

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07-18-2009, 11:28 AM	#2
MrApollinax Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,529	Strobist: Lighting 101 Hope this helps.

07-19-2009, 11:19 PM	#3
tcdk Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 279	You need to experiment, but basically you have two options: 1. Full manual - find a shutter speed, where you have room to work the aperture both ways. 2. Aperture priority, with negative Exposure Compensation. If you underexpose one stop, you "just" have to add one stop with the flash each time, to get a good exposure. The important thing here is that you do not want the camera to change the aperture on you. You want to control that, as that's what has an impact on how much flash is used - shutter speed has no impact in how much light from the flash hits the sensor. Things to remember: * Keep shutter speed lower then 1/180 * Underexpose internal flash as much as possible, so that it doesn't light the subject * If you bounce the flash of something it will be a lot weaker (but softer), then if you shine it directly at your subject Here's a few from yesterday at the Airplane Museum, where I used the second technique on my kids... Full set here: Strobing the kids at the Airplane Museum - a set on Flickr

07-20-2009, 12:53 AM	#4
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	It limits you profoundly having to have only one power setting on your flash for off-camera lighting. If you're investing in triggers, then it's worth investing into a decent flash unit, one that has at least 3 power settings (1/1, 1/2, 1/4), and has a good guide number (power intensity). The favoured manual unit by many is the Vivitar 283 series. Hope these suggestions help.

07-20-2009, 01:28 AM	#6
tcdk Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 279	Oh, last tip for one speed flashs...: feather the light - that is use the edge of the light that come from the flash, as it's a lot weaker then the center spot.

07-20-2009, 07:23 AM	#7
SALUKIS97 Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Dawg Country Posts: 41	tcdk, Love those shots. Especially the second one. Great exposure. I've got a question, if you don't mind, about the second shot: Did you place the flash down in the floor, or were you just holding it? Were you using any type of diffuser on your flash?

07-20-2009, 07:40 AM	#8
F8&Bthere Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Western Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 37 Original Poster	tcdk, thanks that was the kind of thing I was looking for. I think my problem in some cases was that I was maxing out shutter to 1/180. And also I wasn't dialing down the pop-up flash. I'll play around with your recommendations. Ash, yes eventually I should at least get a flash with settings even if it's a Vivitar or YN, but I've been resisting as I don't do much artificial lighting and I have gear in another brand that I have a good name brand ttl flash in. The peanut only cost me like $5 on ebay and I already owned the AF220T from my Pentax film days.

07-20-2009, 08:05 AM	#10
F8&Bthere Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Western Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 37 Original Poster	Excellent, thanks for reminding me of that formula Mike!

07-20-2009, 08:27 AM	#11
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	Originally posted by F8&Bthere Excellent, thanks for reminding me of that formula Mike! You're quite welcome. I used it yesterday myself to manually set a flash even though it has an auto sensor. I was aiming it at the flow of a waterfall and had more confidence in the distance between the flash and the water remaining constant than I did in the reflected light to the sensor.

07-20-2009, 09:31 PM	#12
res3567 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Houston Tx. Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,876	Originally posted by Mike Cash the flash-subject distance into that. ISO. EDIT: Meant to say "flash-subject" distance. (Camera-subject distance is pretty much irrelevant). You did say the right thing the first time Mike.

07-21-2009, 06:42 AM	#13
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Digital cameras with histogram views immediately following the shot have made this much less of a black art anyway. Once you do this a few times, it is amazing how few chimps it takes to find the spot. I've taken far more bad shots with P-TTL than chimping and then working off that setting in manual.

08-15-2009, 11:17 AM	#14
tcdk Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 279	Originally posted by SALUKIS97 tcdk, Love those shots. Especially the second one. Great exposure. I've got a question, if you don't mind, about the second shot: Did you place the flash down in the floor, or were you just holding it? Were you using any type of diffuser on your flash? Sorry, about the late reply - I forgot to subscribe to this thread. Second shot is a combination of direct and bounce, there weren't really anything good to bounce if, so I just placed the flash inside some the controls and let the light bounce around, and some of it hit him directly.. No diffuser. When I have flash in one hand and camera in the other I always go for: 1. Bounce the flash of something. 2. Place the flash somewhere, so that I can get a hand to work the zoom 3. If bounce is impossible, direct flash, but very low power.

08-15-2009, 01:57 PM	#15
MJB DIGITAL Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st. louis Posts: 1,170	When I'm out on a job with a slave in the daylight, I tend to just put the slave over on the shadow side of the subject and fill it from the side. Sounds boring, I know, but you would be suprised at the results when you work with it.

Tips for using non-ttl flash off camera

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