[mano3891]

I read that bing cashback is 2x from next Monday . Probably next monday is the best day to buy one from Adorama or Amazon.

[séamuis]

It depends entirely upon what you'd be using it for. For general purpose shooting I think the K20D is the best deal, but if you prioritize solid AF performance (tracking and low light) and high fps, not to mention a FF upgrade path, then the 40D is a winner by quite a margin.

JonPB: Canon switched out their kit lens a while back and the current one is an excellent performer. The old one sucked though.

I am well aware of this, however why a 40D? the XSi or T1i should do just as well in this department no? why a 2 year old 40D? she recommended it because its the only canon digital SLR shes ever seriously handled. its a bad recommendation and has no place in my opinion since the op already listed two newer canon bodies.

[Peter Zack]

I'm back to part of your original question which blackcloudbrew asked. Why would you want a 70-300 lens for indoor shooting? Far too long even at 70mm for much in a house. The kit lens and FA50mm f1.4 would be just fine. There are also a few other fast primes available which are a little wider for inside.

I've shot with the 40D and the low light AF is good. Better than the K20 but similar to the short time I've used the K-7. IQ wise, the K20D wins hands down. For general indoor light shooting, I don't find the K20 has much trouble with AF. It will depend on the lens. The Kit lens does quite well and the FA50mm is fine. It will depend on the subject, motion etc.

As for the live View, with more than 35,000 frames on the K20D, I've used it for exactly 3 frames. Once to test it and twice shooting overhead. Not a selling point for me.

What is and can't be understated
1) in body SR.
2) Weathersealed body (and some lenses)
3) Backward compatable with millions of old lenses (even if you duct tape the lens to the front).
4) dual control dials for aperture and shutter plus more.
5) P mode for 3 different modes in one. (camera program with green button, Shutter piority and aperture priority)
6) green button
7) In body SR. (huge feature indoors in lower light unless you have the big budget for L glass or like tripod shooting.

I think that OP is a little bit dissoriented. The K20d doesnt play in the same leage that the T1 and XSI. Remember that the AF advantages of Canon dilutes as you go to the lower levels. I have used the K20d and the 40d and the IQ is not that different. The AF speed of the 40d is much much better than the K20d but the peripheral point accuracy is a little bit shaky. Also consider that slow lenses on a 40d might not engage AF as fast and accurately as the fast ones. At least in my case, the AF advantages of the 40d are greatly reduced from the moment that you need to use the center focus point to get reliable results. It is a matter of taste. I think that the main plus of K20d is the shake reduction with every lens and when you are starting that is a big plus. I trully think that Pentax is a really good system for people starting and if you end up outgrowing the system (rarely happens) or just feel like you want to try something new, then jump ships and that is all.

[pingflood]

I can't say that I've ever seen any problems on the 40D or 50D with off-center focusing points. The 5D is a miserable turd when it comes to using anything other than center point, but the XXD cameras have never been problematic there in my experience.

You're right about the IQ though -- there isn't much difference between the K20D and 40D, or 50D, or K10D for that matter.. once you get to the 10MP+ level any decent DSLR will crank out some stunning results. More pixels are handy for cropping, but unless you need to do that a lot then it's mostly unnecessary.

[K-9]

You'll probably want to switch from your live view framings of the point and shoot to the viewfinder on a DSLR. IMO, even the 3" standard that DSLR screens are up to now, I would never want to compose an important shot from that.

Also, if your eye is not on the eyecup, light may enter and throw off the metering. You didn't have to worry about that on a point and shoot, but you do on a DSLR.

[séamuis]

You'll probably want to switch from your live view framings of the point and shoot to the viewfinder on a DSLR. IMO, even the 3" standard that DSLR screens are up to now, I would never want to compose an important shot from that.

Also, if your eye is not on the eyecup, light may enter and throw off the metering. You didn't have to worry about that on a point and shoot, but you do on a DSLR.

pentax solved this with an eyepiece blind on the Spotmatic ESII. ( of course live view didn't exist then ) I wonder why they don't look back at their own designs for modern implementation...

[nanok]

i am very reluctant as to how the af of a rebel compares to the one of the k20d. i think people imagine the af system is the same across the range but i think you might be surprised. i haven't used a canon extensively, so i cannot comment, but i think many people would be surprised at how unimpressive anything bellow the 40d or so would be. other than that, if it comes down to the rebel against the k20d, i honestly think there's no contest, it's really unfair to compare them, the k20d is in a different league. play with them and decide for yourself.

please note, however, that pentax lens prices have been up by leaps and bounds lately, especially in europe, and probably us will follow. nobody knows why and what comes next, but the current situation looks gloomy (to me at least). the k20d is a great camera for the money, but i cannot recommend it wholeheartedly without mentioning these pricing issues. you might be better off with a secodn hand 40d, as heather suggested (i cannot believe i am saying that ), as the pricing for canon glass has been much more stable so far. if all you will ever need is the kit lens, the kit tele-zoom (50-200 or 55-300) and the fast fifty, you needn't worry about that, though; but it's never as simple, (d)slr's are all about lenses (?)

good luck, and, as somebody mentioned, either will take great pictures, don't worry about it too much

[séamuis]

i am very reluctant as to how the af of a rebel compares to the one of the k20d. i think people imagine the af system is the same across the range but i think you might be surprised. i haven't used a canon extensively, so i cannot comment, but i think many people would be surprised at how unimpressive anything bellow the 40d or so would be. other than that, if it comes down to the rebel against the k20d, i honestly think there's no contest, it's really unfair to compare them, the k20d is in a different league. play with them and decide for yourself.

please note, however, that pentax lens prices have been up by leaps and bounds lately, especially in europe, and probably us will follow. nobody knows why and what comes next, but the current situation looks gloomy (to me at least). the k20d is a great camera for the money, but i cannot recommend it wholeheartedly without mentioning these pricing issues. you might be better off with a secodn hand 40d, as heather suggested (i cannot believe i am saying that ), as the pricing for canon glass has been much more stable so far. if all you will ever need is the kit lens, the kit tele-zoom (50-200 or 55-300) and the fast fifty, you needn't worry about that, though; but it's never as simple, (d)slr's are all about lenses (?)

good luck, and, as somebody mentioned, either will take great pictures, don't worry about it too much

canons lens prices are steady, but that doesn't make them any more affordable does it? just a point of thought: if you want to take advantage of USM you will pay big bucks for a good canon lens, just as you will pay big bucks for a Pentax lens. you want a fast long telephoto? you will pay big bucks again, canon or pentax. but if you cant afford those prices, with Pentax you still get SR on whatever lens you mount. you will likely loose that if you decide to buy a lower budget canon lens. or you could just go the way of a 3rd party lens. of course this then makes lens prices between manufacturers a moot point.

[flyer]

From what I read from DSLR reviews is, except Sony none of the DSLRs have implemented it perfectly.

Sony DIDN'T implement it perfectly, far from it. They have installed a second image sensor in the viewfinder to use LV through the viewfinder, so they could use the regular AF sensor instead of contrast AF. The upside is super fast focus in LV, but the downside (big downside, to me) is that LV shows only about 87% of the actual recorded image.

To me, it's as good as useless. I use LV for accuracy while framing, not for approximation.

[nanok]

canons lens prices are steady, but that doesn't make them any more affordable does it?

ahem.. yes, it does, actually. they are, now, effectively more affordable. it's funny people seem to assume i am crazy and complaining without thinking , check "the other thread" for a brief price comparison in my area

just a point of thought: if you want to take advantage of USM you will pay big bucks for a good canon lens, just as you will pay big bucks for a Pentax lens. you want a fast long telephoto? you will pay big bucks again, canon or pentax. but if you cant afford those prices, with Pentax you still get SR on whatever lens you mount. you will likely loose that if you decide to buy a lower budget canon lens. or you could just go the way of a 3rd party lens. of course this then makes lens prices between manufacturers a moot point.

if i can afford those prices there's no problem, but which prices? the canon ones or the pentax ones? i am aware of the reasoning you outlined above, most of us did "the math" in their heads before choosing pentax, i know i did, through and through. it's just that the math no longer is valid (that's what 2x price increases -- in some cases it-s that high, yes -- will do to math ); this might only be temporary, and might not matter for most people, as some have pointed out, but the fact of the matter is that, right now, right here (europe), if you want premium glass from pentax you have to pay more in most cases than premium (even stabilized) glass from canon, and more than twice if you can live without is (at least you have the choice). it is also true that this used to not be the case a few months ago, so there's also the shock (as in: with a fraction of my monthly income i can buy premium glass... hmm... with a.. with roughly my monthly income (give or take some) i can buy.. wtf is going on!)

[DavidWasch]

Mano,

I purchased my K20D last month, after strongly considering the XSi, so I have some idea where you are coming from. I enjoy taking photos, and tend to be the one to take shots at family functions, but would not consider myself anything more than an enthusiast. I gather from your post that you are not looking for a specialist camera and that you are not immediately looking to build towards pro equipment (speak up if I am off base here). If so, I'm in the same boat.

Here are the reasons I favored the Pentax over the XSi:
* the body is rugged and weather resistant - this is a big investment for me and everything that helps protect that investment is appreciated

* in-camera shake reduction - purchasing shake reduction once, versus with each lens seems more sensible. Canons shake reduction might be a tad more effective, but also is more expensive to implement

* cheaper lenses - quality glass is less expensive to come by with Pentax, especially if you are willing to purchase manual lenses. By all means, check out the marketplace on this forum. You can find some great deals (even on K20D bodies).--edit here-- it seems there is some debate over the relative price of Pentax lenses; well I still stick to my guns that *used* lenses, particularly M and A lenses are a bargain.

Most of the features are solid in both cameras, and won't make much of a difference. If you think you want to get into sports photography, the XSi probably has an edge; otherwise, both cameras will support your growth in the hobby for a long time.

Whatever you do, don't sweat the $50. The camera body may start out being a large investment, but once you add in a lens or two, tripod with head, flash, camera bag, etc. etc. the importance of that $50 increment shrinks quite a bit.

-David

[DavidWasch]

please note, however, that pentax lens prices have been up by leaps and bounds lately, especially in europe, and probably us will follow. nobody knows why and what comes next, but the current situation looks gloomy (to me at least). the k20d is a great camera for the money, but i cannot recommend it wholeheartedly without mentioning these pricing issues. you might be better off with a secodn hand 40d, as heather suggested (i cannot believe i am saying that ), as the pricing for canon glass has been much more stable so far. if all you will ever need is the kit lens, the kit tele-zoom (50-200 or 55-300) and the fast fifty, you needn't worry about that, though; but it's never as simple, (d)slr's are all about lenses (?)

good luck, and, as somebody mentioned, either will take great pictures, don't worry about it too much

Nanok,

*If* prices for Pentax lenses are going up because of production costs and/or stagnation in the market (ie. slowing economy), Canon will probably increase its prices soon enough. The big players can generally hold off raising prices longer than the little guys, but they will eventually adjust their price point, too. I suspect that this is the case.

The other reason Pentax prices might be rising is because Pentax is failing as a brand-- now that would be something to worry about. Based on their latest financials, though, I *don't* think that is the case.

-David

[mano3891]

Sony DIDN'T implement it perfectly, far from it. They have installed a second image sensor in the viewfinder to use LV through the viewfinder, so they could use the regular AF sensor instead of contrast AF. The upside is super fast focus in LV, but the downside (big downside, to me) is that LV shows only about 87% of the actual recorded image.

To me, it's as good as useless. I use LV for accuracy while framing, not for approximation.

Oh I didnt know that. So I have one more reason not to include the A330 in my list

[mano3891]

Mano,

I purchased my K20D last month, after strongly considering the XSi, so I have some idea where you are coming from. I enjoy taking photos, and tend to be the one to take shots at family functions, but would not consider myself anything more than an enthusiast. I gather from your post that you are not looking for a specialist camera and that you are not immediately looking to build towards pro equipment (speak up if I am off base here). If so, I'm in the same boat.

Here are the reasons I favored the Pentax over the XSi:
* the body is rugged and weather resistant - this is a big investment for me and everything that helps protect that investment is appreciated

* in-camera shake reduction - purchasing shake reduction once, versus with each lens seems more sensible. Canons shake reduction might be a tad more effective, but also is more expensive to implement

* cheaper lenses - quality glass is less expensive to come by with Pentax, especially if you are willing to purchase manual lenses. By all means, check out the marketplace on this forum. You can find some great deals (even on K20D bodies).--edit here-- it seems there is some debate over the relative price of Pentax lenses; well I still stick to my guns that *used* lenses, particularly M and A lenses are a bargain.

Most of the features are solid in both cameras, and won't make much of a difference. If you think you want to get into sports photography, the XSi probably has an edge; otherwise, both cameras will support your growth in the hobby for a long time.

Whatever you do, don't sweat the $50. The camera body may start out being a large investment, but once you add in a lens or two, tripod with head, flash, camera bag, etc. etc. the importance of that $50 increment shrinks quite a bit.

-David

Thanks David for your response. Yes I am not looking for any specialist camera. I think I am in the same boat you were. All your arguments sounds valid to me. I read Pentax offered 3 year warranty on K20D till July 31st. I think I missed out on that now by 3 days.

The price difference between the XSi and the K20D (with their kit lenses) is actually 150$ now. I can get the XSi for around 580$ in cameta camera (639$ and 8% CB with bing.com). I have a 50$ rebate as a Canon P&S owner. So it eventually comes down to 530$. Pentax K20D will be close to 680$. August 10th, it will be 2x cashback and I can eventually get the K20D for 660$ or less.

I think the shake reduction, build quality, image quality weighs high for pentax over XSI. I know I can get the better build with EOS 50D, but then again I have to spend 400$ more on it or can get a used 40D (which I am reluctant to). I am still having the K20D in the top of the list followed by XSi. I will probably get the K20D on Aug 10th, if the XSi price doesnt drop further.