Clicking at the "decisive moment": sniper or machine gun?

WMBP · 08-10-2009, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by DanLoc78

[burst mode...] probably is considered cheating by some.

Oh, not by anybody whose opinion is worth considering. The proof should be in the pudding, not in the personal prejudices of some other cook.

Let me be clear. It's not cheating or "cheating" to use burst mode/continuous shooting. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it. It's not against any rules. Don't worry that you may be violating somebody else's tender sensibilities. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't like using continuous mode shooting. But the reasons for my (general) rejection of this technique are practical, not philosophical or moral.

Most of us aspire to two basic goals. Our goal at the moment is to take a good photo right now. Our long-term goal is to take lots of good photos, to reach a skill level where we get the confidence to take good photos again and again and again and again. Continuous mode seems like it should promote the first goal (get a good shot now); in fact, continuous shooting may even occasionally achieve that goal. But it is my belief - a belief that arose from my own experience - that regular reliance on continuous shooting is at odds with the other, long-term goal.

But you're not required to believe me or anybody else. Get out, starting shooting continuous on a regular basis. Take 2, or 3, or 19 exposures every time you hit the shutter. If it works for you, then use it with a clear conscience!

*

Ah, but here's what makes this question difficult. I have no doubt that anybody can learn to take good photos using continuous shooting. The problem is, I suspect that it's impossible to learn how to be a truly competent photographer - to achieve the second of the goals I described above - unless you learn to control WHEN you take the shot. In other words, imagine that, with practice, you become a pretty good photographer using the continuous shooting approach. You take two or three shots almost every time you press the shutter and you're generally happy with the results. What I'm saying is that, I believe that, with even more practice, you could get even BETTER results and become an even better photographer with the single-shot approach. But it takes lots of practice, much more than the continuous shooting approach. And if you don't put in the practice, you'll never know.

Will

DanLoc78 · 08-10-2009, 08:15 AM

i guess it all depends on why one is using continuous shooting. you say it's impossible to become a truly competent photographer, someone else might say it's folly not to use it. If shooting a wedding, using the continuous shooting mode might yield some great shots you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. And for the bride and groom, and your own personal portfolio, that's fantastic. For your growth as a photographer, in my opinion that wouldn't be detrimental. But someone shooting a wedding probably already has some experience and is probably quite good at capturing the mood or scene with a single shot. Using the burst mode might be used just for insurance. In a different application, learning to shoot using burst mode, or relying on it too heavily, i can see that being detrimental to a growth in skill level.

Arpe · 08-10-2009, 05:15 PM

I often shoot sports beside people who do it for a living. They always use a high fps mode.

jky · 08-10-2009, 09:50 PM

I'm not a machine gunner...

Personally, I think that learning to anticipate and knowing your equipment really well will serve you better in getting that particular moment. Have the camera at the ready (preset so you're not fiddling) & learn to observe ineractions around you... you'll win some and you'll lose some, but after some practice you'll get better over time.

WMBP · 08-11-2009, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Arpe

I often shoot sports beside people who do it for a living. They always use a high fps mode.

Yes, I'm aware of this. I didn't mention sports in my earlier response for several reasons. The OP talked about taking candids at a party - not about shooting fast-action sports. Shooting sports may be a special case where burst shooting makes sense, because things are so unpredictable. And third, as Eruditass mentioned, if you're shooting with a Pentax camera with its roughly 3 fps speed, you very well might do better learning to anticipate the moment and shoot just once because with a slow burst mode, the best shot might come in between your shots. Those pros aren't shooting Super Bowl games with Pentax dslrs.

Anyway, what pro sports photographers do may be a very special case and not instructive to those who aren't shooting sports or who aren't shooting for money.

It's important to come to grips with a very basic truth here: You're going to miss way, way more shots than you capture, no matter how you shoot. For "normal" shooting (in other words, not sports), my goal is not to try to get everything, but to make the shots that I do take, count.

Will

Arpe · 08-11-2009, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by WMBP

It's important to come to grips with a very basic truth here: You're going to miss way, way more shots than you capture, no matter how you shoot.

Damn right about that!

I guess I forgot what the OP was about!

Eigengrau · 08-12-2009, 03:43 PM

Both are appropriate at different times, although the ones that I would term "decisive moments" are almost always gotten with the "sniper" approach.

I always leave my camera on burst-mode, because I have no difficulty taking a single shot by controlling the length of the finger-press, and then the choice is constantly available to take a string of shots instead of a single one.

However, I find a burst most useful when there's some kind of anticipated, important, but fast moving situation, when I just want a herd of options to choose from later - very rarely are these the best photos, although I very consistently have at least one shot that is good enough. Examples: people feeding each other wedding cake, walking past me in the aisle, jumping or doing something crazy for a posed shot.

For candids or for emotional pictures the sniper mode is the only one that ever works for me. Ceremony, first dances, informal reception photos etc. These are the situations where you have the time to get an awesome shot, rather than just getting something good enough. And to get an awesome shot I think you need to relax and connect with the subject and really feel the flow of the situation. Wait for the exact moment when the couple turns around so you see the bride in profile and then hit it right when she looks up at the groom.

Arpe · 08-12-2009, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Eigengrau

I always leave my camera on burst-mode, because I have no difficulty taking a single shot by controlling the length of the finger-press

Me too, but finding it a bit harder with the K-7 over the K20D!

HGMonaro · 08-12-2009, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Eigengrau

.
I always leave my camera on burst-mode, because I have no difficulty taking a single shot by controlling the length of the finger-press, and then the choice is constantly available to take a string of shots instead of a single one.

I'm the reverse... I rarely have it on continous (K10D) and are a shutter release squeezer from way back... so usually scare myself when I go to squeeze a shot off and end up taking several!

I've been taking lots of pics of my sons football games and I've come to the conclusion that the camera is not fast enough to machine-gun and hope. When I've done that I usually miss the high point of action so I've gone back to anticipating and trying to time my single shot. Still manage to miss a lot but my biggest problem is getting too involved in the actual game rather than concentrating on the action... but then you should see some of my wifes attempts at videoing... haha! She forgets she's even supposed to be aiming it at the play while 'screaming' at our son to 'get in there'. Lot's of footage of the grass at her feet

MJB DIGITAL · 08-13-2009, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by WMBP

Oh, not by anybody whose opinion is worth considering. The proof should be in the pudding, not in the personal prejudices of some other cook.

Let me be clear. It's not cheating or "cheating" to use burst mode/continuous shooting. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it. It's not against any rules. Don't worry that you may be violating somebody else's tender sensibilities. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't like using continuous mode shooting. But the reasons for my (general) rejection of this technique are practical, not philosophical or moral.

Most of us aspire to two basic goals. Our goal at the moment is to take a good photo right now. Our long-term goal is to take lots of good photos, to reach a skill level where we get the confidence to take good photos again and again and again and again. Continuous mode seems like it should promote the first goal (get a good shot now); in fact, continuous shooting may even occasionally achieve that goal. But it is my belief - a belief that arose from my own experience - that regular reliance on continuous shooting is at odds with the other, long-term goal.

But you're not required to believe me or anybody else. Get out, starting shooting continuous on a regular basis. Take 2, or 3, or 19 exposures every time you hit the shutter. If it works for you, then use it with a clear conscience!

*

Ah, but here's what makes this question difficult. I have no doubt that anybody can learn to take good photos using continuous shooting. The problem is, I suspect that it's impossible to learn how to be a truly competent photographer - to achieve the second of the goals I described above - unless you learn to control WHEN you take the shot. In other words, imagine that, with practice, you become a pretty good photographer using the continuous shooting approach. You take two or three shots almost every time you press the shutter and you're generally happy with the results. What I'm saying is that, I believe that, with even more practice, you could get even BETTER results and become an even better photographer with the single-shot approach. But it takes lots of practice, much more than the continuous shooting approach. And if you don't put in the practice, you'll never know.

Will

Absolutely a great post. Funny thing for me is that I shoot on K10D's. I can actually shoot faster if I'm in single shot mode, and press the shutter button over and over again. I'm sure it'll be different when I upgrade to K7, but for now I'm a sniper, even when I shoot sports, kids at play or any other fast moving situation.

Someone mentioned shooting the first dance at a wedding...
Ha! I got a good giggle imagining shooting it in burst mode. haha If only flash recharge time was .19 seconds.

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08-10-2009, 08:02 AM	#31
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by DanLoc78 [burst mode...] probably is considered cheating by some. Oh, not by anybody whose opinion is worth considering. The proof should be in the pudding, not in the personal prejudices of some other cook. Let me be clear. It's not cheating or "cheating" to use burst mode/continuous shooting. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it. It's not against any rules. Don't worry that you may be violating somebody else's tender sensibilities. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't like using continuous mode shooting. But the reasons for my (general) rejection of this technique are practical, not philosophical or moral. Most of us aspire to two basic goals. Our goal at the moment is to take a good photo right now. Our long-term goal is to take lots of good photos, to reach a skill level where we get the confidence to take good photos again and again and again and again. Continuous mode seems like it should promote the first goal (get a good shot now); in fact, continuous shooting may even occasionally achieve that goal. But it is my belief - a belief that arose from my own experience - that regular reliance on continuous shooting is at odds with the other, long-term goal. But you're not required to believe me or anybody else. Get out, starting shooting continuous on a regular basis. Take 2, or 3, or 19 exposures every time you hit the shutter. If it works for you, then use it with a clear conscience! * Ah, but here's what makes this question difficult. I have no doubt that anybody can learn to take good photos using continuous shooting. The problem is, I suspect that it's impossible to learn how to be a truly competent photographer - to achieve the second of the goals I described above - unless you learn to control WHEN you take the shot. In other words, imagine that, with practice, you become a pretty good photographer using the continuous shooting approach. You take two or three shots almost every time you press the shutter and you're generally happy with the results. What I'm saying is that, I believe that, with even more practice, you could get even BETTER results and become an even better photographer with the single-shot approach. But it takes lots of practice, much more than the continuous shooting approach. And if you don't put in the practice, you'll never know. Will

08-10-2009, 08:15 AM	#32
DanLoc78 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Philadelphia Photos: Gallery Posts: 915	i guess it all depends on why one is using continuous shooting. you say it's impossible to become a truly competent photographer, someone else might say it's folly not to use it. If shooting a wedding, using the continuous shooting mode might yield some great shots you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. And for the bride and groom, and your own personal portfolio, that's fantastic. For your growth as a photographer, in my opinion that wouldn't be detrimental. But someone shooting a wedding probably already has some experience and is probably quite good at capturing the mood or scene with a single shot. Using the burst mode might be used just for insurance. In a different application, learning to shoot using burst mode, or relying on it too heavily, i can see that being detrimental to a growth in skill level.

08-10-2009, 05:15 PM	#33
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	I often shoot sports beside people who do it for a living. They always use a high fps mode.

08-10-2009, 09:50 PM	#34
jky Inactive Account Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 9	I'm not a machine gunner... Personally, I think that learning to anticipate and knowing your equipment really well will serve you better in getting that particular moment. Have the camera at the ready (preset so you're not fiddling) & learn to observe ineractions around you... you'll win some and you'll lose some, but after some practice you'll get better over time.

08-11-2009, 10:06 AM	#35
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by Arpe I often shoot sports beside people who do it for a living. They always use a high fps mode. Yes, I'm aware of this. I didn't mention sports in my earlier response for several reasons. The OP talked about taking candids at a party - not about shooting fast-action sports. Shooting sports may be a special case where burst shooting makes sense, because things are so unpredictable. And third, as Eruditass mentioned, if you're shooting with a Pentax camera with its roughly 3 fps speed, you very well might do better learning to anticipate the moment and shoot just once because with a slow burst mode, the best shot might come in between your shots. Those pros aren't shooting Super Bowl games with Pentax dslrs. Anyway, what pro sports photographers do may be a very special case and not instructive to those who aren't shooting sports or who aren't shooting for money. It's important to come to grips with a very basic truth here: You're going to miss way, way more shots than you capture, no matter how you shoot. For "normal" shooting (in other words, not sports), my goal is not to try to get everything, but to make the shots that I do take, count. Will

08-11-2009, 05:12 PM	#36
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	Originally posted by WMBP It's important to come to grips with a very basic truth here: You're going to miss way, way more shots than you capture, no matter how you shoot. Damn right about that! I guess I forgot what the OP was about!

08-12-2009, 03:43 PM	#37
Eigengrau Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Colorado Photos: Albums Posts: 250	Both are appropriate at different times, although the ones that I would term "decisive moments" are almost always gotten with the "sniper" approach. I always leave my camera on burst-mode, because I have no difficulty taking a single shot by controlling the length of the finger-press, and then the choice is constantly available to take a string of shots instead of a single one. However, I find a burst most useful when there's some kind of anticipated, important, but fast moving situation, when I just want a herd of options to choose from later - very rarely are these the best photos, although I very consistently have at least one shot that is good enough. Examples: people feeding each other wedding cake, walking past me in the aisle, jumping or doing something crazy for a posed shot. For candids or for emotional pictures the sniper mode is the only one that ever works for me. Ceremony, first dances, informal reception photos etc. These are the situations where you have the time to get an awesome shot, rather than just getting something good enough. And to get an awesome shot I think you need to relax and connect with the subject and really feel the flow of the situation. Wait for the exact moment when the couple turns around so you see the bride in profile and then hit it right when she looks up at the groom.

08-12-2009, 05:10 PM	#38
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	Originally posted by Eigengrau I always leave my camera on burst-mode, because I have no difficulty taking a single shot by controlling the length of the finger-press Me too, but finding it a bit harder with the K-7 over the K20D!

08-12-2009, 06:25 PM	#39
HGMonaro Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Melb. Aust Posts: 840	Originally posted by Eigengrau . I always leave my camera on burst-mode, because I have no difficulty taking a single shot by controlling the length of the finger-press, and then the choice is constantly available to take a string of shots instead of a single one. I'm the reverse... I rarely have it on continous (K10D) and are a shutter release squeezer from way back... so usually scare myself when I go to squeeze a shot off and end up taking several! I've been taking lots of pics of my sons football games and I've come to the conclusion that the camera is not fast enough to machine-gun and hope. When I've done that I usually miss the high point of action so I've gone back to anticipating and trying to time my single shot. Still manage to miss a lot but my biggest problem is getting too involved in the actual game rather than concentrating on the action... but then you should see some of my wifes attempts at videoing... haha! She forgets she's even supposed to be aiming it at the play while 'screaming' at our son to 'get in there'. Lot's of footage of the grass at her feet

08-13-2009, 10:34 AM	#40
MJB DIGITAL Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st. louis Posts: 1,170	Originally posted by WMBP Oh, not by anybody whose opinion is worth considering. The proof should be in the pudding, not in the personal prejudices of some other cook. Let me be clear. It's not cheating or "cheating" to use burst mode/continuous shooting. There's nothing immoral or illegal about it. It's not against any rules. Don't worry that you may be violating somebody else's tender sensibilities. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't like using continuous mode shooting. But the reasons for my (general) rejection of this technique are practical, not philosophical or moral. Most of us aspire to two basic goals. Our goal at the moment is to take a good photo right now. Our long-term goal is to take lots of good photos, to reach a skill level where we get the confidence to take good photos again and again and again and again. Continuous mode seems like it should promote the first goal (get a good shot now); in fact, continuous shooting may even occasionally achieve that goal. But it is my belief - a belief that arose from my own experience - that regular reliance on continuous shooting is at odds with the other, long-term goal. But you're not required to believe me or anybody else. Get out, starting shooting continuous on a regular basis. Take 2, or 3, or 19 exposures every time you hit the shutter. If it works for you, then use it with a clear conscience! * Ah, but here's what makes this question difficult. I have no doubt that anybody can learn to take good photos using continuous shooting. The problem is, I suspect that it's impossible to learn how to be a truly competent photographer - to achieve the second of the goals I described above - unless you learn to control WHEN you take the shot. In other words, imagine that, with practice, you become a pretty good photographer using the continuous shooting approach. You take two or three shots almost every time you press the shutter and you're generally happy with the results. What I'm saying is that, I believe that, with even more practice, you could get even BETTER results and become an even better photographer with the single-shot approach. But it takes lots of practice, much more than the continuous shooting approach. And if you don't put in the practice, you'll never know. Will Absolutely a great post. Funny thing for me is that I shoot on K10D's. I can actually shoot faster if I'm in single shot mode, and press the shutter button over and over again. I'm sure it'll be different when I upgrade to K7, but for now I'm a sniper, even when I shoot sports, kids at play or any other fast moving situation. Someone mentioned shooting the first dance at a wedding... Ha! I got a good giggle imagining shooting it in burst mode. haha If only flash recharge time was .19 seconds.