PPG is possibly showing Non-Pentax camera images as theirs.

netuser · 11-19-2009, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by MRRiley

............ The EXIF can be hacked in either direction.

............

Really ?

I thought that was impossible.... seems nothing can be trust

MRRiley · 11-19-2009, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by netuser

Really ?

I thought that was impossible.... seems nothing can be trust

All you need is a HEX editor and an understanding of the file structure and you can hack EXIF from any camera. Its not simple, and you really have to know what you are doing or you can totally hose the file, but it is doable. It does leave traces that a computer forensics specialist can see, but for the average user or under most circumstances it's virtually undetectable.

Mike

Wheatfield · 11-19-2009, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Is Ned Bunnell no longer a member here? (not that he ever seememd to reply to anything when he was here...)

He's probably hanging out on some Leica forum somewhere.

flippedgazelle · 11-19-2009, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by MRRiley

All you need is a HEX editor and an understanding of the file structure and you can hack EXIF from any camera. Its not simple, and you really have to know what you are doing or you can totally hose the file, but it is doable. It does leave traces that a computer forensics specialist can see, but for the average user or under most circumstances it's virtually undetectable.

Mike

Or, Quick EXIF Editor.

pingflood · 11-19-2009, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by MRRiley

All you need is a HEX editor and an understanding of the file structure and you can hack EXIF from any camera. Its not simple, and you really have to know what you are doing or you can totally hose the file, but it is doable. It does leave traces that a computer forensics specialist can see, but for the average user or under most circumstances it's virtually undetectable.

Mike

Actually, is is VERY easy to change. Freeware version of OPanda did this:
http://beyondthematrix.com/K1D.jpg

Check out the exif

And I don't think any forensics expert will be able to tell it was changed if you keep the changes consistent -- short of analyzing the image noise/structure and comparing it to some database I suppose.

netuser · 11-19-2009, 02:23 PM

So, this means PPG is a trust matter. They trust "we" respect the rules .....

pcarfan · 11-19-2009, 05:35 PM

Yes, it is an honor system of sort.........some go to extremes and think there shouldn't be much PP, I push with PP..I've seen images pushed so much they look like computer graphics and paintings, even that is totally fine with me. my only wish is Pentax photo gallery shows photographs captured with Pentax cameras only.......

But, now I really don't care about that either.......it is the only place where you genuinely get an idea of whether an image you appreciate is appealing to a mass audience, so it still has validity, but unless Pentax takes some actions, it will no longer be the spot where photographers can go to see what is possible with Pentax cameras as it could be form nay camera.

FHPhotographer · 11-19-2009, 05:47 PM

This issue aside for a moment, why the hostility toward PPG by wheatfield, roentarre and others? It seems to showcase some very good work by Pentax (usually) shooters, so what's the problem with PPG in general?

Brian

MRRiley · 11-19-2009, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by flippedgazelle

Or, Quick EXIF Editor.

Originally posted by pingflood

Actually, is is VERY easy to change. Freeware version of OPanda did this:
http://beyondthematrix.com/K1D.jpg

Check out the exif

And I don't think any forensics expert will be able to tell it was changed if you keep the changes consistent -- short of analyzing the image noise/structure and comparing it to some database I suppose.

I hadn't looked at those tools. Most of the EXIF editors I've seen only allow you to edit the USER portions. I didn't realize any commonly available editors could edit the hard-coded parts of the EXIF like manufacturer, camera model, creation date and the like?

This is why I mentioned the HEX editor and the forensics angle...

Mike

Alfisti · 11-19-2009, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by FHPhotographer

This issue aside for a moment, why the hostility toward PPG by wheatfield, roentarre and others? It seems to showcase some very good work by Pentax (usually) shooters, so what's the problem with PPG in general?

Brian

I think hostility is a bit of a harsh word but my problem is that the standard is way too low, i see so many poor images get in it just baffles me. Macro with no point of focus, too little DOF etc etc

FHPhotographer · 11-19-2009, 11:07 PM

You're right, that was a poor choice of words. Let's say "dislike for PPG" instead. Thanks,
Brian

pingflood · 11-20-2009, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by MRRiley

I hadn't looked at those tools. Most of the EXIF editors I've seen only allow you to edit the USER portions. I didn't realize any commonly available editors could edit the hard-coded parts of the EXIF like manufacturer, camera model, creation date and the like?

This is why I mentioned the HEX editor and the forensics angle...

Mike

No, EXIF was never intended as some sort of "evidence" of original image properties, but rather a way to tag the images with useful data.

Canon has a kit (and I believe that is the reason the 1-series carry an SD slot in addition to CF) for ensuring the image remains unaltered:
Canon : OSK-E3

MRRiley · 11-20-2009, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by pingflood

No, EXIF was never intended as some sort of "evidence" of original image properties, ...

Perhaps not from a "criminal" point of view, but I can foresee situations where it might be used in a civil matter such as a copyright infringment.

All I am saying is that tampering is possible, but is also detectable to some extent using sophisticated enough tools and methodologies.

Mike

pingflood · 11-20-2009, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Perhaps not from a "criminal" point of view, but I can foresee situations where it might be used in a civil matter such as a copyright infringment.

All I am saying is that tampering is possible, but is also detectable to some extent using sophisticated enough tools and methodologies.

Mike

To be honest, I can't see how you'd find out that somebody altered say a date in the exif data, unless you can access the medium the file was stored on when the change was made... but if I alter a date on a file and say email it to you, no amount of forensics will be able to detect it.

MRRiley · 11-20-2009, 12:04 PM

Mike

11-19-2009, 10:22 AM	#17
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by netuser Really ? I thought that was impossible.... seems nothing can be trust All you need is a HEX editor and an understanding of the file structure and you can hack EXIF from any camera. Its not simple, and you really have to know what you are doing or you can totally hose the file, but it is doable. It does leave traces that a computer forensics specialist can see, but for the average user or under most circumstances it's virtually undetectable. Mike Last edited by MRRiley; 11-19-2009 at 10:56 AM.

11-20-2009, 12:04 PM	#30
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Lets get back to the central question... possible fraud in the PPG... Ok, so I had a little slow time and decided to check all of Mr. Zalba's PPG photos against his PN gallery... Here are the results... (note, By the time I was done I was almost cross eyed from scrolling thru his PN gallery scanning over and over. So I may have missed a couple... If so and you notice let us know) K10D on PPG, Canon EOS 50D on PN Fresa Strawberry: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Strawberry Almirez y manzanas. apples: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Apples Ajos Garlic: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Garlic Bardenas/Snow in the Bardenas: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net- Snow in the Bardenas Noche: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Noche Cabaña Aguirre/Cabin Aguirre: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Cabin Aguirre Somos de barro/ We Mud: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - We are of Mud La luna/The moon: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - The moon Bardenas: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Bardenas Nubes en fuga. Clouds on the...: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Clouds on the Run Balsa de Zolina: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Balsa de Zolina Carcavas: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Carcavas Rocesvalles: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Rocesvalles Cuando las estrellas...: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - When the Stars Dance Quinto Real: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Quinto Real K10D on both sites Vasos/glasses: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Glasses Un rayo de esperanza: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Sky and Earth Arpa / Harp: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Harp Bardenas: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Bardenas Estrellas en la noche: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Estrellas en la noche El Rallón: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - El Rallon Mallorca Puerto Colom: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Puerto Colom La luna se esconde/The moon...: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - The Moon Estrellas en el firmamento....: Photo by Photographer Martin Zalba Ibañez - photo.net - Stars in the Sky There are numerous photos on his PPG that are not in his PN Gallery but this places at least 15 photos in a highly questionable status. I'd like to think that he simply messed up his camera attribution on PN but who knows. Either way this needs to be sorted out. Heck, who knows, maybe he's trying to make his Canon look better by claiming it was used for photos it wasn't up to. Mike Last edited by MRRiley; 11-20-2009 at 12:19 PM.

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11-19-2009, 09:46 AM	#16
netuser Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Azores Islands, Portugal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,236	Originally posted by MRRiley ............ The EXIF can be hacked in either direction. ............ Really ? I thought that was impossible.... seems nothing can be trust

11-19-2009, 12:03 PM	#18
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,986	Originally posted by MRRiley Is Ned Bunnell no longer a member here? (not that he ever seememd to reply to anything when he was here...) He's probably hanging out on some Leica forum somewhere.

11-19-2009, 12:17 PM	#19
flippedgazelle Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NJ, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,270	Originally posted by MRRiley All you need is a HEX editor and an understanding of the file structure and you can hack EXIF from any camera. Its not simple, and you really have to know what you are doing or you can totally hose the file, but it is doable. It does leave traces that a computer forensics specialist can see, but for the average user or under most circumstances it's virtually undetectable. Mike Or, Quick EXIF Editor.

11-19-2009, 12:37 PM	#20
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Originally posted by MRRiley All you need is a HEX editor and an understanding of the file structure and you can hack EXIF from any camera. Its not simple, and you really have to know what you are doing or you can totally hose the file, but it is doable. It does leave traces that a computer forensics specialist can see, but for the average user or under most circumstances it's virtually undetectable. Mike Actually, is is VERY easy to change. Freeware version of OPanda did this: http://beyondthematrix.com/K1D.jpg Check out the exif And I don't think any forensics expert will be able to tell it was changed if you keep the changes consistent -- short of analyzing the image noise/structure and comparing it to some database I suppose.

11-19-2009, 02:23 PM	#21
netuser Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Azores Islands, Portugal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,236	So, this means PPG is a trust matter. They trust "we" respect the rules .....

11-19-2009, 05:35 PM	#22
pcarfan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,978 Original Poster	Yes, it is an honor system of sort.........some go to extremes and think there shouldn't be much PP, I push with PP..I've seen images pushed so much they look like computer graphics and paintings, even that is totally fine with me. my only wish is Pentax photo gallery shows photographs captured with Pentax cameras only....... But, now I really don't care about that either.......it is the only place where you genuinely get an idea of whether an image you appreciate is appealing to a mass audience, so it still has validity, but unless Pentax takes some actions, it will no longer be the spot where photographers can go to see what is possible with Pentax cameras as it could be form nay camera.

11-19-2009, 05:47 PM	#23
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297	This issue aside for a moment, why the hostility toward PPG by wheatfield, roentarre and others? It seems to showcase some very good work by Pentax (usually) shooters, so what's the problem with PPG in general? Brian

11-19-2009, 06:49 PM	#24
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by flippedgazelle Or, Quick EXIF Editor. Originally posted by pingflood Actually, is is VERY easy to change. Freeware version of OPanda did this: http://beyondthematrix.com/K1D.jpg Check out the exif And I don't think any forensics expert will be able to tell it was changed if you keep the changes consistent -- short of analyzing the image noise/structure and comparing it to some database I suppose. I hadn't looked at those tools. Most of the EXIF editors I've seen only allow you to edit the USER portions. I didn't realize any commonly available editors could edit the hard-coded parts of the EXIF like manufacturer, camera model, creation date and the like? This is why I mentioned the HEX editor and the forensics angle... Mike

11-19-2009, 07:57 PM	#25
Alfisti Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto (for now) Posts: 1,748	Originally posted by FHPhotographer This issue aside for a moment, why the hostility toward PPG by wheatfield, roentarre and others? It seems to showcase some very good work by Pentax (usually) shooters, so what's the problem with PPG in general? Brian I think hostility is a bit of a harsh word but my problem is that the standard is way too low, i see so many poor images get in it just baffles me. Macro with no point of focus, too little DOF etc etc

11-19-2009, 11:07 PM	#26
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297	You're right, that was a poor choice of words. Let's say "dislike for PPG" instead. Thanks, Brian

11-20-2009, 06:34 AM	#27
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Originally posted by MRRiley I hadn't looked at those tools. Most of the EXIF editors I've seen only allow you to edit the USER portions. I didn't realize any commonly available editors could edit the hard-coded parts of the EXIF like manufacturer, camera model, creation date and the like? This is why I mentioned the HEX editor and the forensics angle... Mike No, EXIF was never intended as some sort of "evidence" of original image properties, but rather a way to tag the images with useful data. Canon has a kit (and I believe that is the reason the 1-series carry an SD slot in addition to CF) for ensuring the image remains unaltered: Canon : OSK-E3

11-20-2009, 08:57 AM	#28
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by pingflood No, EXIF was never intended as some sort of "evidence" of original image properties, ... Perhaps not from a "criminal" point of view, but I can foresee situations where it might be used in a civil matter such as a copyright infringment. All I am saying is that tampering is possible, but is also detectable to some extent using sophisticated enough tools and methodologies. Mike

11-20-2009, 09:18 AM	#29
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Originally posted by MRRiley Perhaps not from a "criminal" point of view, but I can foresee situations where it might be used in a civil matter such as a copyright infringment. All I am saying is that tampering is possible, but is also detectable to some extent using sophisticated enough tools and methodologies. Mike To be honest, I can't see how you'd find out that somebody altered say a date in the exif data, unless you can access the medium the file was stored on when the change was made... but if I alter a date on a file and say email it to you, no amount of forensics will be able to detect it.