High ISO - black and white - no noise reduction look

pb_red · 03-05-2010, 05:22 PM

cool stuff kxuser!

i also like the noisy look in some situations. i also think that many imperfections can add character to photos...

for example, the following was taken with an old k100d, $50 manual focus lens, high ISO, and very poor lighting

GeneV · 03-05-2010, 05:47 PM

I've found that sharpening helps the grainy effect. It is also true of film scans.

Nevertheless, I'm back to souping film (along with shooting digital) and loving it.

Asudef · 03-05-2010, 06:45 PM

I actually like digital "grain" but film still looks better. Either way, I like the shots posted so far even if it isn't real. Still something I can get behind.

kxuser · 03-05-2010, 07:25 PM

Thanks all for the advice and suggestions! I like this look, as it turns out the photograph of the girl always gets a great response from people.

Here is the thing. I am not going for an exact replica of film grain. If I was going for that I would just use film! I saw some photographs on a fashion website and thought that they looked really cool. I wanted to try and reproduce them with a digital cam (I have no idea if the photographs were film or digital).

The idea behind this post is that experimentation is good. I hear so much technical talk on here about reduced noise, not focused, too dark, etc. Why not go out and experiment here and there and see what creative corner you and your camera can get pushed into. Its not always about pixel quality, sharpness, etc. Lets be creative!

krypticide · 03-11-2010, 05:54 PM

I like noise in B&W, so it's never an issue. I just hate banding and purple blobs in my images.

alehel · 03-14-2010, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by telfish

If you wan't more noise I guess you could underexpose by a couple of stops the push back up in PP.

We've reached an interesting point in camera development when ISO 12800
doesn't produce enough noise

RioRico · 03-14-2010, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by alehel

We've reached an interesting point in camera development when ISO 12800 doesn't produce enough noise

Over here Manual Focus Lenses :: View topic - Monochrome sensor; very interesting outlook we're discussing a proposed B&W sensor. A Bayer-filtered sensor, with its 1R+1B+2G blended elements, throws away 1/2-3/4 of the received light. Remove the Bayer filter and the sensor is 2x-4x more sensitive, and has 4x the resolution, and lower noise. With everything else the same (lens, display size, etc) the mono sensor has around 10x-20x better performance.

To get the ISO 12800 noise level on a mono sensor, you'd have to shoot at ISO 128k at least, more likely ISO 256k. If you want more noise, bump it up to ISO 512k. At the other end, you'd have a base of ISO 400, virtually grainless. And that's with existing technology. Take the Kx's sensor. Strip off the Bayer filter. Resolution is now around 50mpx. What'll it take to get enough noise for that Tri-X @ 6400 look?

alehel · 03-14-2010, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by RioRico

To get the ISO 12800 noise level on a mono sensor, you'd have to shoot at ISO 128k at least, more likely ISO 256k. If you want more noise, bump it up to ISO 512k. At the other end, you'd have a base of ISO 400, virtually grainless. And that's with existing technology. Take the Kx's sensor. Strip off the Bayer filter. Resolution is now around 50mpx. What'll it take to get enough noise for that Tri-X @ 6400 look?

I think my brain just exploded

.

A Pentax with a dedicated B&W sensor would be awesome, although they might strougle marketing it.

RolloR · 03-15-2010, 01:09 AM

just for reference, here's one photo (film scan) I took using:

Kodak T-MAX 3200
Kodak D76 Developer
No Photo Flo

Those grain are HUGE with 100% crop. The film was scanned to ~6megapixels with a Fuji SP-3000 scanner.

IMO my K-x at ISO 12,800 is still quite less grainier than this! Although of course, the grain pattern is very different

**pacerr** · 03-15-2010, 12:21 PM

Download the NIK software 'Silver Efex Pro 15-day free trial and explore the pre-set film types there. There are 18 different B&W film types/brands from Panatomic-X to T-Max 3200.

Make a "test strip" with the various "films types" and you'll have a good set of comparison images plus a reference catalog for building your own grain effects.

The video tutorials on that site are very useful also.

H2

CWyatt · 03-16-2010, 01:18 AM

I wouldn't shoot 1600+ just to shoot that - if you ever want that shot clearer or sharper you can't get it back to a lower ISO look. However you can replicate the look of film very easily (Nik Silver Efex Pro seems to do this well). However, as you say you are not trying to replicate film.

Grain can give a nice impression of low light for a subject that needs that context. I think you should be wary of placing specific technical premeditations in front of the subject or composition in the list of priorities. I've yet to see a photo that's good for purely technical reasons, like the film/ISO speed. However if it will add something to a particular photo, I say go for it.

slinco · 03-17-2010, 01:39 PM

I haven't gotten too deeply into trying much of this yet, but I do have some thoughts on the subject. I don't mind digital noise much, but it does get ugly when it's sharpened. It looks much more film-like when it doesn't have sharpening artifacts on every grain. The problem is almost every image that comes out of a digital camera NEEDS sharpening. So what I'm going to try (someday) to get an old grainy film look is this:
Shoot at low ISO for a nice noise free image; convert to B&W and sharpen; and then, at the very end, add noise (of some type) in Photoshop, or use a film grain emulator. I think it's important to NOT sharpen the "grain" in order for it to look natural.

Ira · 03-24-2010, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by slinco

I haven't gotten too deeply into trying much of this yet, but I do have some thoughts on the subject. I don't mind digital noise much, but it does get ugly when it's sharpened. It looks much more film-like when it doesn't have sharpening artifacts on every grain. The problem is almost every image that comes out of a digital camera NEEDS sharpening. So what I'm going to try (someday) to get an old grainy film look is this:
Shoot at low ISO for a nice noise free image; convert to B&W and sharpen; and then, at the very end, add noise (of some type) in Photoshop, or use a film grain emulator. I think it's important to NOT sharpen the "grain" in order for it to look natural.

PS's noise filters are kind of bland and too uniform. Nothing like getting the real thing.

woof · 03-24-2010, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by indytax

Before I purchased my K10D, I owned a Fujifilm Finepix S5200 superzoom EVIL which I bought in no small part to the many reviews that complemented its noise as being quite film-like.

Funny you should mention that. This is a Fuji S5200 with a 2 stop digital push.

dragonfly · 03-24-2010, 02:35 PM

Lightroom makes a lot of this easy for you. Obviously there are lots of exposure tricks you can try, like severely under exposing your pics, or shooting high ISO.

With Lightroom you can download sets of B&W development profiles. These are basically presets that someone else thought was nice and bothered to save for you. Trying different presets often will reveal elements of your image that you didn't realize were present.

Trying to reproduce film grain is a holy-grail type quest IMO. Try out one of the software grain reproducers that are on the market because they have put a lot more effort into it than you ever can.

03-05-2010, 07:25 PM	#19
kxuser Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 71 Original Poster	thanks all Thanks all for the advice and suggestions! I like this look, as it turns out the photograph of the girl always gets a great response from people. Here is the thing. I am not going for an exact replica of film grain. If I was going for that I would just use film! I saw some photographs on a fashion website and thought that they looked really cool. I wanted to try and reproduce them with a digital cam (I have no idea if the photographs were film or digital). The idea behind this post is that experimentation is good. I hear so much technical talk on here about reduced noise, not focused, too dark, etc. Why not go out and experiment here and there and see what creative corner you and your camera can get pushed into. Its not always about pixel quality, sharpness, etc. Lets be creative!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
K-x high-ISO noise reduction: use it or do it in PP instead?	richardm	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	5	10-28-2010 08:45 AM
Nikon high ISO noise reduction?	MidwestMax	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	4	03-30-2010 02:09 PM
What do you guys use for high iso noise reduction?	rustynail925	Digital Processing, Software, and Printing	38	12-04-2009 01:28 AM
High ISO Noise Reduction on K20D - Does it do anything in RAW?	ksignorini	Pentax DSLR Discussion	4	07-23-2008 03:53 AM
K20D - High ISO Noise Reduction - How? How much? When?	ksignorini	Pentax DSLR Discussion	4	04-13-2008 01:14 PM

03-05-2010, 05:22 PM	#16
pb_red Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 194	cool stuff kxuser! i also like the noisy look in some situations. i also think that many imperfections can add character to photos... for example, the following was taken with an old k100d, $50 manual focus lens, high ISO, and very poor lighting

03-05-2010, 05:47 PM	#17
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	I've found that sharpening helps the grainy effect. It is also true of film scans. Nevertheless, I'm back to souping film (along with shooting digital) and loving it.

03-05-2010, 06:45 PM	#18
Asudef Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Francisco Posts: 79	I actually like digital "grain" but film still looks better. Either way, I like the shots posted so far even if it isn't real. Still something I can get behind.

03-11-2010, 05:54 PM	#20
krypticide Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,079	I like noise in B&W, so it's never an issue. I just hate banding and purple blobs in my images.

03-14-2010, 03:34 PM	#21
alehel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 167	Originally posted by telfish If you wan't more noise I guess you could underexpose by a couple of stops the push back up in PP. We've reached an interesting point in camera development when ISO 12800 doesn't produce enough noise

03-14-2010, 09:17 PM	#22
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by alehel We've reached an interesting point in camera development when ISO 12800 doesn't produce enough noise Over here Manual Focus Lenses :: View topic - Monochrome sensor; very interesting outlook we're discussing a proposed B&W sensor. A Bayer-filtered sensor, with its 1R+1B+2G blended elements, throws away 1/2-3/4 of the received light. Remove the Bayer filter and the sensor is 2x-4x more sensitive, and has 4x the resolution, and lower noise. With everything else the same (lens, display size, etc) the mono sensor has around 10x-20x better performance. To get the ISO 12800 noise level on a mono sensor, you'd have to shoot at ISO 128k at least, more likely ISO 256k. If you want more noise, bump it up to ISO 512k. At the other end, you'd have a base of ISO 400, virtually grainless. And that's with existing technology. Take the Kx's sensor. Strip off the Bayer filter. Resolution is now around 50mpx. What'll it take to get enough noise for that Tri-X @ 6400 look?

03-14-2010, 09:49 PM	#23
alehel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 167	Originally posted by RioRico To get the ISO 12800 noise level on a mono sensor, you'd have to shoot at ISO 128k at least, more likely ISO 256k. If you want more noise, bump it up to ISO 512k. At the other end, you'd have a base of ISO 400, virtually grainless. And that's with existing technology. Take the Kx's sensor. Strip off the Bayer filter. Resolution is now around 50mpx. What'll it take to get enough noise for that Tri-X @ 6400 look? I think my brain just exploded . A Pentax with a dedicated B&W sensor would be awesome, although they might strougle marketing it.

03-15-2010, 01:09 AM	#24
RolloR Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 264	just for reference, here's one photo (film scan) I took using: Kodak T-MAX 3200 Kodak D76 Developer No Photo Flo Those grain are HUGE with 100% crop. The film was scanned to ~6megapixels with a Fuji SP-3000 scanner. IMO my K-x at ISO 12,800 is still quite less grainier than this! Although of course, the grain pattern is very different

03-15-2010, 12:21 PM	#25
pacerr Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Paris, TN Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,349	Download the NIK software 'Silver Efex Pro 15-day free trial and explore the pre-set film types there. There are 18 different B&W film types/brands from Panatomic-X to T-Max 3200. Make a "test strip" with the various "films types" and you'll have a good set of comparison images plus a reference catalog for building your own grain effects. The video tutorials on that site are very useful also. H2

03-16-2010, 01:18 AM	#26
CWyatt Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,291	I wouldn't shoot 1600+ just to shoot that - if you ever want that shot clearer or sharper you can't get it back to a lower ISO look. However you can replicate the look of film very easily (Nik Silver Efex Pro seems to do this well). However, as you say you are not trying to replicate film. Grain can give a nice impression of low light for a subject that needs that context. I think you should be wary of placing specific technical premeditations in front of the subject or composition in the list of priorities. I've yet to see a photo that's good for purely technical reasons, like the film/ISO speed. However if it will add something to a particular photo, I say go for it.

03-17-2010, 01:39 PM	#27
slinco Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 203	I haven't gotten too deeply into trying much of this yet, but I do have some thoughts on the subject. I don't mind digital noise much, but it does get ugly when it's sharpened. It looks much more film-like when it doesn't have sharpening artifacts on every grain. The problem is almost every image that comes out of a digital camera NEEDS sharpening. So what I'm going to try (someday) to get an old grainy film look is this: Shoot at low ISO for a nice noise free image; convert to B&W and sharpen; and then, at the very end, add noise (of some type) in Photoshop, or use a film grain emulator. I think it's important to NOT sharpen the "grain" in order for it to look natural.

03-24-2010, 01:33 PM	#28
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Originally posted by slinco I haven't gotten too deeply into trying much of this yet, but I do have some thoughts on the subject. I don't mind digital noise much, but it does get ugly when it's sharpened. It looks much more film-like when it doesn't have sharpening artifacts on every grain. The problem is almost every image that comes out of a digital camera NEEDS sharpening. So what I'm going to try (someday) to get an old grainy film look is this: Shoot at low ISO for a nice noise free image; convert to B&W and sharpen; and then, at the very end, add noise (of some type) in Photoshop, or use a film grain emulator. I think it's important to NOT sharpen the "grain" in order for it to look natural. PS's noise filters are kind of bland and too uniform. Nothing like getting the real thing.

03-24-2010, 02:04 PM	#29
woof Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the present Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,870	Originally posted by indytax Before I purchased my K10D, I owned a Fujifilm Finepix S5200 superzoom EVIL which I bought in no small part to the many reviews that complemented its noise as being quite film-like. Funny you should mention that. This is a Fuji S5200 with a 2 stop digital push.

03-24-2010, 02:35 PM	#30
dragonfly Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: on the wall Photos: Gallery Posts: 715	Lightroom makes a lot of this easy for you. Obviously there are lots of exposure tricks you can try, like severely under exposing your pics, or shooting high ISO. With Lightroom you can download sets of B&W development profiles. These are basically presets that someone else thought was nice and bothered to save for you. Trying different presets often will reveal elements of your image that you didn't realize were present. Trying to reproduce film grain is a holy-grail type quest IMO. Try out one of the software grain reproducers that are on the market because they have put a lot more effort into it than you ever can.