Misc "There are no atheists in foxholes"

Canis · 03-14-2013, 07:45 PM

Some of my vintage militaria collection. Sharpened slightly and vignette added using LR4. My apologies to anyone offended by the image of a gun. Comments and criticisms welcome.

Attached Images

**patrick9** · 03-14-2013, 08:50 PM

Touchy It is just a famous Quote..wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes used as a title. Doesn't mean the military doesn't take people because of their religious preferences. Oh I am ex-Army.
Nice shot of your collection Canis

SpecialK · 03-14-2013, 09:27 PM

Nice shot. Title is appropriate. I'm not offended by the gun. I'm baffled by the Bible, however. Ex-Army :-)

hks_kansei · 03-14-2013, 09:34 PM

I take the critique section to be more in regard to offering hints/tips and general advice as to how to make a photograph better show the photographer's vision.

To me I see that the photographer has intended to create an arrangement of objects, and to take a photograph, with the intention of illustrating the famous quote (whether or not the quote is accurate or not)
I personally think that the photograph illustrates this wonderfully.

It's not about whether or not you agree with the photographer's vision so much as it is about how well they have been able to portray it.

monoloco · 03-15-2013, 12:29 AM

I think the way the objects are set up and grouped looks a bit contrived. It might give more sense of the period in b&w.

twitch · 03-15-2013, 12:36 AM - **1 Like**

I can understand Lauren's POV, it's a prejudicial, offensive & untrue quote.

**arnold** · 03-15-2013, 12:50 AM - **1 Like**

Since the point of the photo and title was to illustrate the link between the title and the picture, there is indeed a link. The photo is asking one to accept that link. I can understand why there are complaints. It is the suggestion that atheists are cowards who will give up their conclusions when under threat.
Had the photo had been titled "Possessions of a soldier in a foxhole" or similar, I doubt there would have been a protest.

**arnold** · 03-15-2013, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by hks_kansei

I take the critique section to be more in regard to offering hints/tips and general advice as to how to make a photograph better show the photographer's vision.

To me I see that the photographer has intended to create an arrangement of objects, and to take a photograph, with the intention of illustrating the famous quote (whether or not the quote is accurate or not)
I personally think that the photograph illustrates this wonderfully.

It's not about whether or not you agree with the photographer's vision so much as it is about how well they have been able to portray it.

A fair point, but think for a moment of well known quotes, say, "a woman's place is in the kitchen", or even worse, a racial slur, illustrated with a photo of a woman bent over a stove. It is difficult to ignore the context the photographer is making explicit, whether or not he believes in it.
Better to say "It was once said that a woman's place is in the kitchen". In the same way, if the photo in question had simply said: "An illustration of a famous quote" there would have been no problem as it was not put in the form of an assertion.

vonBaloney · 03-15-2013, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by twitch

it's a prejudicial, offensive & untrue quote.

It is the third thing (untrue) if you want to take it literally (which it is not meant to be taken), and it isn't the first two at all.

Is it really that hard to understand the meaning? It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with prejudice, or inclusiveness, or exclusiveness, or the military per se as it applies other places as well but the analogy is using a foxhole as a setting (meaning more generally something like "life-threatening situation where it is not in your control whether you live or die"), but certainly the phrase has been stretched to less serious situations -- the out-of-your-control bit is more important), or even atheists per se. It means that if you are in combat and could be blown up at any moment, you are likely to be saying to yourself something along the lines of, "Jesus, get me out of here" whether you are an atheist or not. And over the years, it has come to apply to any situation where you feel vulnerable and not in control of your own destiny and you have a yearning to be "saved" by God, fate, luck, whatever. That's it, that is all it means. If you've got a stick up your butt about religion, then the image itself is probably more offensive then the title. I'm neither a theist or an atheist, btw, but I'm definitely not religious. I consider (a)theists as basically the same -- as a person that thinks they *know* the inherently unknowable.

Either way, twisting this well-worn quote with a well-known meaning into some sort of expression that "atheists are not welcome in the military" is beyond silly. Atheists may well find they are not as accepted in the military as they might like to be, but this phrase hasn't got anything to do with that. Sorry for the ranting about figures of speech in what is supposed to be a photo critique, but man, how crazy can you be? It is like complaining the phrase "That's the pot calling the kettle black" is racist (which yes, some people claim).

p38arover · 03-15-2013, 01:23 AM

I'm not offended by the quote.

Was a Bible once issued as part of a US serviceman's kit?

borno · 03-15-2013, 02:38 AM

I think you should change the title to "Freedom of speech"

Tom S. · 03-15-2013, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by p38arover

I'm not offended by the quote.

Was a Bible once issued as part of a US serviceman's kit?

No, it was never GI issue. However hundreds of thousands of pocket bibles were/are sold either directly to servicemen or their relatives who gave them as gifts. In fact, it was even available in the PX (post exchange or on base store, if you will) There were even some made with metal covers for 'added' protection. A story circulated that one soldier was saved when a bullet was stopped by one of these pocket bibles, and that the bullet penetrated to a page that had the words "though others shall perish you will not" (or words to that effect). As far as I know, that story has no factual basis.

As for the actual quote, it is either a paraphrase of "no one dies an atheist" or vice-verse. And like many quotes, is subject to disagreement. It is however well enough known that I see no problem with it as the title of this thread, especially since the kit shown, had it belonged to a a soldier, he very likely would have felt the saying true.

smf · 03-15-2013, 05:58 AM

To the original poster: Welcome to Pentaxforums.com, and thanks for posting the well-done image.
What follows is a comment, not criticism. I notice that the aperture is 1.4 and that the sharpest focus is on the cover of the New Testament and on the cord below the holster. If that was intentional, I have no argument. Otherwise, use of a tripod, remote shutter release, slower shutter speed and an aperture allowing greater depth of field might be worthwhile. You might want to try a higher ISO. Consider using mirror lockup. When you are using a tripod, disable the camera's anti-shake capability.
Best wishes, and I hope to see more of your photographs.

Canis · 03-15-2013, 06:22 AM

I did not wish to offend anyone. The quote, used by War correspondent Ernie Pyle, always made me reflect about the observations he made we he decided to put it to paper.

Thank you all for the comments and technical advice.

Regarding the photo, I do think it does appear too "staged"

Canis

Jonathan Mac · 03-15-2013, 06:27 AM

I like the photo, and though I think it would also work in B&W, I like it in colour.

I'm not offended by the gun, or the title, though it's certainly untrue. I'm offended by the contents of the bible, but not the appearance of one

03-14-2013, 07:45 PM	#1
Canis Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Columbia, Maryland Posts: 432	"There are no atheists in foxholes" Lens: FA 50mm f1.4 Camera: K5 Photo Location: Columbia, Maryland ISO: 100 Shutter Speed: 1/30s Aperture: F1.4 Some of my vintage militaria collection. Sharpened slightly and vignette added using LR4. My apologies to anyone offended by the image of a gun. Comments and criticisms welcome. Attached Images

03-15-2013, 12:36 AM - 1 Like	#6
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	I can understand Lauren's POV, it's a prejudicial, offensive & untrue quote. Last edited by twitch; 03-15-2013 at 12:55 AM.

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03-14-2013, 08:50 PM	#2
patrick9 Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Murfreesboro Tennessee Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,458	Touchy It is just a famous Quote..wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes used as a title. Doesn't mean the military doesn't take people because of their religious preferences. Oh I am ex-Army. Nice shot of your collection Canis

03-14-2013, 09:27 PM	#3
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,480	Nice shot. Title is appropriate. I'm not offended by the gun. I'm baffled by the Bible, however. Ex-Army :-)

03-14-2013, 09:34 PM	#4
hks_kansei Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 834	I take the critique section to be more in regard to offering hints/tips and general advice as to how to make a photograph better show the photographer's vision. To me I see that the photographer has intended to create an arrangement of objects, and to take a photograph, with the intention of illustrating the famous quote (whether or not the quote is accurate or not) I personally think that the photograph illustrates this wonderfully. It's not about whether or not you agree with the photographer's vision so much as it is about how well they have been able to portray it.

03-15-2013, 12:29 AM	#5
monoloco Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Pescadero BCS Mexico Posts: 286	I think the way the objects are set up and grouped looks a bit contrived. It might give more sense of the period in b&w.

03-15-2013, 12:50 AM - 1 Like	#7
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,294	Since the point of the photo and title was to illustrate the link between the title and the picture, there is indeed a link. The photo is asking one to accept that link. I can understand why there are complaints. It is the suggestion that atheists are cowards who will give up their conclusions when under threat. Had the photo had been titled "Possessions of a soldier in a foxhole" or similar, I doubt there would have been a protest.

03-15-2013, 01:01 AM	#8
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,294	Originally posted by hks_kansei I take the critique section to be more in regard to offering hints/tips and general advice as to how to make a photograph better show the photographer's vision. To me I see that the photographer has intended to create an arrangement of objects, and to take a photograph, with the intention of illustrating the famous quote (whether or not the quote is accurate or not) I personally think that the photograph illustrates this wonderfully. It's not about whether or not you agree with the photographer's vision so much as it is about how well they have been able to portray it. A fair point, but think for a moment of well known quotes, say, "a woman's place is in the kitchen", or even worse, a racial slur, illustrated with a photo of a woman bent over a stove. It is difficult to ignore the context the photographer is making explicit, whether or not he believes in it. Better to say "It was once said that a woman's place is in the kitchen". In the same way, if the photo in question had simply said: "An illustration of a famous quote" there would have been no problem as it was not put in the form of an assertion.

03-15-2013, 01:14 AM	#9
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by twitch it's a prejudicial, offensive & untrue quote. It is the third thing (untrue) if you want to take it literally (which it is not meant to be taken), and it isn't the first two at all. Is it really that hard to understand the meaning? It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with prejudice, or inclusiveness, or exclusiveness, or the military per se as it applies other places as well but the analogy is using a foxhole as a setting (meaning more generally something like "life-threatening situation where it is not in your control whether you live or die"), but certainly the phrase has been stretched to less serious situations -- the out-of-your-control bit is more important), or even atheists per se. It means that if you are in combat and could be blown up at any moment, you are likely to be saying to yourself something along the lines of, "Jesus, get me out of here" whether you are an atheist or not. And over the years, it has come to apply to any situation where you feel vulnerable and not in control of your own destiny and you have a yearning to be "saved" by God, fate, luck, whatever. That's it, that is all it means. If you've got a stick up your butt about religion, then the image itself is probably more offensive then the title. I'm neither a theist or an atheist, btw, but I'm definitely not religious. I consider (a)theists as basically the same -- as a person that thinks they know the inherently unknowable. Either way, twisting this well-worn quote with a well-known meaning into some sort of expression that "atheists are not welcome in the military" is beyond silly. Atheists may well find they are not as accepted in the military as they might like to be, but this phrase hasn't got anything to do with that. Sorry for the ranting about figures of speech in what is supposed to be a photo critique, but man, how crazy can you be? It is like complaining the phrase "That's the pot calling the kettle black" is racist (which yes, some people claim).

03-15-2013, 01:23 AM	#10
p38arover Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Western Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,084	I'm not offended by the quote. Was a Bible once issued as part of a US serviceman's kit?

03-15-2013, 02:38 AM	#11
borno Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: md-usa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,580	I think you should change the title to "Freedom of speech"

03-15-2013, 05:45 AM	#12
Tom S. Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Michigan Photos: Albums Posts: 4,317	Originally posted by p38arover I'm not offended by the quote. Was a Bible once issued as part of a US serviceman's kit? No, it was never GI issue. However hundreds of thousands of pocket bibles were/are sold either directly to servicemen or their relatives who gave them as gifts. In fact, it was even available in the PX (post exchange or on base store, if you will) There were even some made with metal covers for 'added' protection. A story circulated that one soldier was saved when a bullet was stopped by one of these pocket bibles, and that the bullet penetrated to a page that had the words "though others shall perish you will not" (or words to that effect). As far as I know, that story has no factual basis. As for the actual quote, it is either a paraphrase of "no one dies an atheist" or vice-verse. And like many quotes, is subject to disagreement. It is however well enough known that I see no problem with it as the title of this thread, especially since the kit shown, had it belonged to a a soldier, he very likely would have felt the saying true.

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03-15-2013, 05:58 AM	#13
smf Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Midland, MI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,083	To the original poster: Welcome to Pentaxforums.com, and thanks for posting the well-done image. What follows is a comment, not criticism. I notice that the aperture is 1.4 and that the sharpest focus is on the cover of the New Testament and on the cord below the holster. If that was intentional, I have no argument. Otherwise, use of a tripod, remote shutter release, slower shutter speed and an aperture allowing greater depth of field might be worthwhile. You might want to try a higher ISO. Consider using mirror lockup. When you are using a tripod, disable the camera's anti-shake capability. Best wishes, and I hope to see more of your photographs.

03-15-2013, 06:22 AM	#14
Canis Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Columbia, Maryland Posts: 432 Original Poster	I did not wish to offend anyone. The quote, used by War correspondent Ernie Pyle, always made me reflect about the observations he made we he decided to put it to paper. Thank you all for the comments and technical advice. Regarding the photo, I do think it does appear too "staged" Canis

03-15-2013, 06:27 AM	#15
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,887	I like the photo, and though I think it would also work in B&W, I like it in colour. I'm not offended by the gun, or the title, though it's certainly untrue. I'm offended by the contents of the bible, but not the appearance of one