[zkarj]

One of the things I spotted on their site, is it supports local adjustments along the lines of Nik control points, which would be hugely useful.

Have a look at this video which includes the use of said control points. It looks pretty powerful. Luminar has the ability to take any effect block and paint it in/out as desired, along with the ability to have multiple of the same block — a different approach to the problem.

Timecode 11:08 if you want to go straight to the local adjustments bit.

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

[Kiwizinho]

Have a look at this video which includes the use of said control points. It looks pretty powerful. Luminar has the ability to take any effect block and paint it in/out as desired, along with the ability to have multiple of the same block — a different approach to the problem.

It looks like a combination of the adjustment brush tool in Lightroom and control points in Nik. If it does this non-destructively like Lightroom, simply storing the adjustments as meta-data either as sidecar files or directly in the DNGs, this would be impressive. Nik is great anyway, and often solves problems where Lightroom isn't enough, but sending to Nik from Lightroom ends up generating a huge tiff file, and it's not non-destructive editing.

[zkarj]

It looks like a combination of the adjustment brush tool in Lightroom and control points in Nik. If it does this non-destructively like Lightroom, simply storing the adjustments as meta-data either as sidecar files or directly in the DNGs, this would be impressive. Nik is great anyway, and often solves problems where Lightroom isn't enough, but sending to Nik from Lightroom ends up generating a huge tiff file, and it's not non-destructive editing.

It's the same company that owns Nik so perhaps not surprising they took such an awesome feature for the newer product. The overall Local Adjustment functions include "U Point" capability that looks to have been lifted out of Nik, but you can also brush it in or use a gradient etc. They are indeed non-destructive. You can see it in the video where after making all the adjustments he slides the point around. I'm pretty sure like most such modern software it's all non-destructive, though I could not actually find a statement to that effect.

[GUB]

It's the same company that owns Nik so perhaps not surprising they took such an awesome feature for the newer product. The overall Local Adjustment functions include "U Point" capability that looks to have been lifted out of Nik, but you can also brush it in or use a gradient etc. They are indeed non-destructive. You can see it in the video where after making all the adjustments he slides the point around. I'm pretty sure like most such modern software it's all non-destructive, though I could not actually find a statement to that effect.

Do I miss-understand the principle of "non destructive editing"? I think it is the philosophy of the editor retaining all the information of the edit as a side file until you consciously export the image and is as such very overrated. Is the strength in it that you can go back and make a change without affecting the later editing? ie not being tied to your chronological order of things.?

[richandfleur]

Do I miss-understand the principle of "non destructive editing"? I think it is the philosophy of the editor retaining all the information of the edit as a side file until you consciously export the image and is as such very overrated. Is the strength in it that you can go back and make a change without affecting the later editing? ie not being tied to your chronological order of things.?

Yeah that's right.

The issue comes if your workflow involves moving between two or more software programs, where the export process generates a large single file with all adjustments baked in.

[GUB]

Yeah that's right.

The issue comes if your workflow involves moving between two or more software programs, where the export process generates a large single file with all adjustments baked in.

So is Darktable nondestructive in that you can access the history of the pipeline and take it back to an earlier step but in the process you delete all later steps?
EDIT or is it non destructive because you can close DT without saving and when you reopen it the pipeline of editing and history is still there.

[richandfleur]

So is Darktable nondestructive in that you can access the history of the pipeline and take it back to an earlier step but in the process you delete all later steps?
EDIT or is it non destructive because you can close DT without saving and when you reopen it the pipeline of editing and history is still there.

I have no idea about Darktable sorry.

Typically if there is a list of steps you can go back to, even when you've closed the program and come back to it, then it's non destructive.

Difference is say editing the image directly in photoshop, but not on different layers. Once you save the whole image is saved at that point.
When you open it back up again you can't undo work you've already made to it, because there is no history to refer back to.

That tends to happen when you jump from one program to another to do different tasks, and in doing that you're open to compression artefacts etc if you save as standard jpeg between programs.

[GUB]

I have no idea about Darktable sorry.

Typically if there is a list of steps you can go back to, even when you've closed the program and come back to it, then it's non destructive.

Difference is say editing the image directly in photoshop, but not on different layers. Once you save the whole image is saved at that point.
When you open it back up again you can't undo work you've already made to it, because there is no history to refer back to.

That tends to happen when you jump from one program to another to do different tasks, and in doing that you're open to compression artefacts etc if you save as standard jpeg between programs.

Thanks Richard so it is what I thought. But I had wondered whether zkarj meant that there was a little more to it.

[Class A]

Is the strength in it that you can go back and make a change without affecting the later editing? ie not being tied to your chronological order of things.?

Yes.

Non-destructive editing in principle just means that you can revisit any of your decisions at any point in time. There is never a committal, say to a certain noise reduction level, that will irrevocably destroy some information in the image.

In practice, the term also implies

• independence of application order. For instance, it does not matter whether you apply sharpening first and then a contrast reduction or vice versa. There is an underlying image pipeline that always executes all adjustments in the same order.
• parametric editing. One works with a mask plus adjustments and the two can be modified independently from each other. In a traditional destructive workflow one is changing a particular set of pixels in some particular way. There is typically no way to achieve exactly the same adjustment to other regions or revisit the choices latter on.

As a consequence of the above one gets the nice property that one can always change earlier adjustments and adjustments that were made later won't overwrite the effect of the revised adjustments.

A counter example are Photoshops standard layers which work additively. If one does some retouching on one layer and than adds further retouching to the same area on a later layer, any changes to the initial layer will be masked by the later layer. So while Photoshop can support deep "undoing", in general, it does not have the nice property of parametric editing that essentially guarantees superposition for all adjustments.

So is Darktable nondestructive in that you can access the history of the pipeline and take it back to an earlier step but in the process you delete all later steps?

Yes, Darktable works non-destructively.

BTW, Photoshop also supports non-destructive editing. The so-called "adjustment layers" support a parametric editing style as well. So working in Photoshop does not necessarily lead to a destructive editing style.

[GUB]

Yes, Darktable works non-destructively.

Trying to get my head around this - it has nothing to do with the history list - ie if you go back to an earlier point in the history you delete all that comes after it. But if say your first step was say colour temp - then you did a heap of other things - then went back to readjust colour temp it would reset the earlier attempt rather than add to it. And so for each tweak of the tone curve you may do it will boil down to one maneuver . This is distinct from Gimp or PS where as each attempt would be additive. Have I got it?

[microlight]

Like Rich, I don't use Darktable (or Lightroom!). But I do use Adobe Camera Raw triggered from Bridge, and while ACR doesn't have a history list as such, all the edits are non-destructive because the original raw file isn't changed in any way, but the changes are attached in a sidecar file, as opposed to a database entry in Lr. Once you 'open image' which then opens the image in Photoshop, the latest stage of edit is saved - but you can revisit at any time and change your edits, because all ACR does is apply the sidecar changes to the raw file and display the result. Make a change, and ACR saves the new one. I understand that in ACR, any change to any parameter is updated in a specfic sequence (don't know what that sequence is) so that it doesn't make any difference in which order you change things: exposure, sharpness, NR etc, they are saved in a pre-determined order when the sidecar is saved. The same rationale may well apply to software such as Darktable, but I couldn't help on that.

It is possible to continue non-destructively in Photoshop, although maybe a little more complex. Ctrl-J to duplicate the layer for safety, and then convert the top layer to a smart object so that any changes that you do make can be revisited and altered later.

As you can see, unless I need a specific effect or technique, pretty much all my workflow exists in Bridge/ACR/Photoshop.

Hope this has helped a little.

[Class A]

But if say your first step was say colour temp - then you did a heap of other things - then went back to readjust colour temp it would reset the earlier attempt rather than add to it.

Yes. If you use the same control again then you are just correcting your initial choice.

You are not adding to your existing choices.

Of course for this to be true we need to be talking about global adjustments or adjustments to one and the same mask.

If two mask overlap than two adjustments associated with them will superimpose.

This is distinct from Gimp or PS where as each attempt would be additive. Have I got it?

Yes.

Bear in mind, though, that PS (unlike Gimp) has non-destructive adjustment layers that work exactly the same way as adjustments in Darktable, Lightroom, Capture One Pro, etc. work.

[Class A]

Ctrl-J to duplicate the layer for safety, and then convert the top layer to a smart object so that any changes that you do make can be revisited and altered later.

Smart objects are one way to achieve a non-destructive workflow.
So-called "adjustment layers" are a less heavyweight alternative that are sufficient for many purposes.

[GUB]

Yes. If you use the same control again then you are just correcting your initial choice.

You are not adding to your existing choices.

So as far as I can see this is the point of difference that gives non destructive an advantage

[richandfleur]

Reminds me of when video moved from tape to tape machine queuing, where you had to build your final video up piece by piece, to digital and the age of non linear video editing, where you can chop and change as much as you want before outputting to the final product.