[NZ_Ross]

Of course you may also gain better quality through more sophisticated algorithms and/or much finer user control of parameters.

That presupposes a halfway decent photo in the first case - in my own experience that is not always true

[Transit]

Thanks Ross Gub and ClassA

---------- Post added 8th Jun 2021 at 11:27 AM ----------

The JPG that was best in my example was the fast stone quick view version of raw that loads quickly for fast viewing !
Probably spent the most time trying in raw therapy and darktable what tutorials and stuff I'm not actually trying to do very much... just want to develop it hence looking for a develop button :-)
I probably need more consumer-level stuff with big coloured buttons and not too many of them :-)
main thing I'd like to do is possibly work on dynamic range and local exposure changes

Yes your first challenge when you start using raw is to equal the jpg. It is a good idea to save RAW+ so you have a jpg to reality check against.


Yep export is the word you are lookingt for Pete. In Darktable you access it via the thumbnails page. Or just ctrl/E on the main image (from memory)
Don't get intimidated by all the modules in DT. I use;
"profiled denoise" (just turn it on for the K-1 profile - no profile for the Q - just bring the strength slider back.
"exposure" thru the module or alternatively just scroll on the histo at the top.
"Tone Curve" Standard histo
Occasionally I change the colour temp and also sometimes use the "graduated density".
"Haze reduction" sometimes.
Things like vignetting, cloning out / healing and local exposure adjustments and sharpening I leave for Gimp just like I would for ex camera jpgs. Probably you would use Faststone for them.

---------- Post added 8th Jun 2021 at 11:30 AM ----------

Do the programs interpret the Pentax and Adobe raws the same ?

[GUB]

Do the programs interpret the Pentax and Adobe raws the same ?

Not sure what you mean by that but-- If you have worked on your Pentax dng with another editor but have not exported it (developed) then the editing changes you have made will be in a side file somewhere (as a workflow) and your excamera DNG will be sitting where it has been downloaded and will be unchanged.

[GUB]

I'm not actually trying to do very much... just want to develop it hence looking for a develop button :-)

To clarify - by just wanting to develop it do you mean to apply some editing and save it as a jpg ?

[Kiwizinho]

Not sure what you mean by that but-- If you have worked on your Pentax dng with another editor but have not exported it (developed) then the editing changes you have made will be in a side file somewhere (as a workflow) and your excamera DNG will be sitting where it has been downloaded and will be unchanged.

Unless you use Lightroom. Lightroom can embed metadata with all the editing adjustments in the DNG, although it doesn't alter the actual raw pixel data, just the list of adjustments you want to apply to the raw data. Adobe Camera Raw, via Photoshop or Bridge does the same.
Unfortunately Adobe's adjustments aren't compatible with any other editing software (although keyword and location metadata is), so any embedded edit history goes to waste unless the DNG is opened by Adobe software, but if it is, then it can make the edit history portable between different computers.
There's no reason other raw processing software couldn't do the same thing, as the DNG specification is quite flexible about what metadata can be embedded in a DNG file.

That won't work with Pentax pef files.

I guess there are pros and cons of each approach. If you don't like the idea of anything messing with your raw files, pef will keep your files pristine, but you depend on sidecar files to keep track of any edits, whereas if you value portability and embedding of metadata, then DNG files support this.

[Transit]

Not sure what you mean by that but-- If you have worked on your Pentax dng with another editor but have not exported it (developed) then the editing changes you have made will be in a side file somewhere (as a workflow) and your excamera DNG will be sitting where it has been downloaded and will be unchanged.

Sorry I meant PEF vs DNG

---------- Post added 8th Jun 2021 at 02:50 PM ----------

To clarify - by just wanting to develop it do you mean to apply some editing and save it as a jpg ?

Yep that's it.

---------- Post added 8th Jun 2021 at 03:05 PM ----------

Thanks !
I understand what all that means ...
Not using Adobe software here and have never seen edit history unless it's on the image I'm editing at the time.
I suspect any portability of edit info is beyond me.

Unless you use Lightroom. Lightroom can embed metadata with all the editing adjustments in the DNG, although it doesn't alter the actual raw pixel data, just the list of adjustments you want to apply to the raw data. Adobe Camera Raw, via Photoshop or Bridge does the same.
Unfortunately Adobe's adjustments aren't compatible with any other editing software (although keyword and location metadata is), so any embedded edit history goes to waste unless the DNG is opened by Adobe software, but if it is, then it can make the edit history portable between different computers.
There's no reason other raw processing software couldn't do the same thing, as the DNG specification is quite flexible about what metadata can be embedded in a DNG file.

That won't work with Pentax pef files.

I guess there are pros and cons of each approach. If you don't like the idea of anything messing with your raw files, pef will keep your files pristine, but you depend on sidecar files to keep track of any edits, whereas if you value portability and embedding of metadata, then DNG files support this.

---------- Post added 8th Jun 2021 at 03:09 PM ----------

Maybe I should just stick with in camera jpg and change wb there if needed

[MarkJerling]

Unless you use Lightroom. Lightroom can embed metadata with all the editing adjustments in the DNG, although it doesn't alter the actual raw pixel data, just the list of adjustments you want to apply to the raw data. Adobe Camera Raw, via Photoshop or Bridge does the same.
Unfortunately Adobe's adjustments aren't compatible with any other editing software (although keyword and location metadata is), so any embedded edit history goes to waste unless the DNG is opened by Adobe software, but if it is, then it can make the edit history portable between different computers.
There's no reason other raw processing software couldn't do the same thing, as the DNG specification is quite flexible about what metadata can be embedded in a DNG file.

That won't work with Pentax pef files.

I guess there are pros and cons of each approach. If you don't like the idea of anything messing with your raw files, pef will keep your files pristine, but you depend on sidecar files to keep track of any edits, whereas if you value portability and embedding of metadata, then DNG files support this.

I can't say that I've ever seen Lightroom altering the dng files. Unless I'm missing something? Certainly, the dng's appear completely unaltered and with no alteration of file size after opening and editing in Lightroom, for me in any case.

[GUB]

I can't say that I've ever seen Lightroom altering the dng files. Unless I'm missing something? Certainly, the dng's appear completely unaltered and with no alteration of file size after opening and editing in Lightroom, for me in any case.

I thought LR maintained a large file somewhere else with all the editing data (all image edits in one lump). Something that if corrupted means you lose all your editing but not your base images. Darktable and Rawtherapee create there own sidefiles. Handy if , like me, you want to go back to the base and start against. Just go into your image folder and delete the sidefile.

[MarkJerling]

I thought LR maintained a large file somewhere else with all the editing data (all image edits in one lump). Something that if corrupted means you lose all your editing but not your base images. Darktable and Rawtherapee create there own sidefiles. Handy if , like me, you want to go back to the base and start against. Just go into your image folder and delete the sidefile.

Quite. It's called the Lightroom Catalogue file, filename extension .lrcat and all the edit information resides in that file. It pays to back up that file regularly.

[Class A]

I can't say that I've ever seen Lightroom altering the dng files.

Lightroom can store adjustments in a number of ways.

It can use the catalogue, it can save them to a DNG file, or it can save them to a dedicated (XMP) sidecar file. None of these options are exclusive. Lightroom offers some level of configuration which information to prioritise, if multiple sources are present.

[Class A]

I probably need more consumer-level stuff with big coloured buttons and not too many of them :-)

Have you ever tried Picasa?
I used it for a long time and it supports DNG files.
It is weak on local adjustments and limited regarding other adjustments, but it might suit you.
IIRC, it has a big "Export" (develop) button in the interface.

It is not longer supported, but that need not deter you, if you can download it from somewhere and it runs fine on your machine.

Do the programs interpret the Pentax and Adobe raws the same ?

It depends.

Some software give DNG files a generic treatment and only uses dedicated development presets for .PEF files. Most of the time, however, you should be able to work around that and create your own preferred DNG default processing.

I use DNG files because they allow me to use any decent software, i.e., I'm not dependent on specific camera model support being available.

[Kiwizinho]

I can't say that I've ever seen Lightroom altering the dng files. Unless I'm missing something? Certainly, the dng's appear completely unaltered and with no alteration of file size after opening and editing in Lightroom, for me in any case.

It's optional whether Lightroom will alter the DNG files. It's possible to have it set to do it automatically, or only on 'save metadata'.
Lightroom does maintain a big database with all the develop settings, and it uses this for search, but it also has the capability to write to DNG files, which I like to do periodically in case anything happens to the database, although I keep it backed up anyway.

I think that's what @zkarj relies on for keywording in Lightroom and then raw processing in PhotoLab.

---------- Post added 06-09-21 at 09:22 AM ----------

Have you ever tried Picasa?
I used it for a long time and it supports DNG files.
It is weak on local adjustments and limited regarding other adjustments, but it might suit you.
IIRC, it has a big "Export" (develop) button in the interface.

It is not longer supported, but that need not deter you, if you can download it from somewhere and it runs fine on your machine.

I think I've still got Picasa install files somewhere, and can probably dig them out if needed.
Although its adjustment settings were limited, it was easy to use, basic keywording and geotagging worked reasonably well and it wasn't hard on the system (ie it made Lightroom look like a lethargic slug). The facial recognition was uncannily accurate, and personally I think better than in Lightroom.
Levelling crooked horizons and cropping were the main adjustments I used, as they worked well, but lighting adjustments were mostly a waste of time.
It's yet another example of the curse of Google buying up a useful product, making it free, and then abandoning it. At least Nik found a new home with DxO.
I think Google abandoned Picasa as they wanted to get everyone to move to Google Photos and store their stuff in the cloud, and Picasa is a pretty good photo organiser without the need to upload anything.
I'm still mad a Google for abandoning it.

I've still got it installed on my desktop PC, and just had a look. Geotagging doesn't seem to work any more (to be expected as it's integrated with other Google services which have presumably changed since 2015), and neither does the file information panel, but keywording, facial recognition, search, still seem to work fine.

[zkarj]

The beauty of LrC writing metadata to DNG files is that you can add your keywords, titles, etc ONCE and then use the file in any other software and they will be present. Various other software does not do this and the reason seems to be the supposed 'sanctity of the original file' which in my mind is a misplaced sense of duty. As already pointed out, the image data is never touched, and if they're worried about corrupting the file by changing it in any way... well maybe they need to up their testing regime and also warn users about bad disks, bad SD cards, accidental deletion of files, etc, etc.

The reason I use LrC is the ease of maintaining and applying my keywords AND the fact that once that's done I can use ofter software while still keeping that info. The one caveat to that is LrC's ability to mark keywords as 'do not export' which other software cannot know about, so my !places keyword tree gets '!places' as a keyword on export from other software. I should work on a script to strip those manually as I only have a few such keywords.

I also archive all my DNG files in the cloud and it's good to know my keywords survive up there, too, without tons of extra sidecar files which may or may not be proprietary depending on the software used.

[MarkJerling]

Can you show how to customise Lightroom to write to the DNG files? Mine does not do it and it sounds like a handy idea.

[Kiwizinho]

Can you show how to customise Lightroom to write to the DNG files? Mine does not do it and it sounds like a handy idea.

On Windows at least, here is how it works.

Edit -> Catalog Settings -> Metadata -> Automatically write changes into XMP to save automatically (This can slow down Lightroom, as it tries to update metadata as you work.)

Alternatively, to do it manually, per image Right Click - > Metadata -> Save Metadata to file.

For a folder: Right click on the folder name -> Save Metadata. This will update all images in the folder.