[netrex]

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First of all, thank you for all the replies, keep the info coming if you have more

Hartblei by zeiss offer a 40mm 80mm and 90mm TS lenses, though the prices for these as all glass with the "zeiss" logo on it have a three fold price hike due to the Zeiss tick of approval. and bear in mind that the k-7 has shift ability built in, Via sensor shift capability. I don't know if the K-x has this feature.

From taking a look at the hartblei catalogue you were using, I would recommend the 80mm f/2.8 (though it is a matter of taste) my reason is that these tilt/shift lenses are usually pretty big and having a large intimidating lens is not the best tool for getting natural portraits. I prefer to have some distance between me and my models.

The K-x doesn't have the shift capability, unfortunately. I know the K-7 has it, but how much a difference does it make? I always thought it was just a very slight movement, so too little to really make a difference the way a shifting lens does.

I can't see a lot of use for T/S lenses with small format digital unless one is doing tabletop macro work. Generally, there is ample DOF available anyway, and perspective can be corrected in post as easily as it can be corrected at time of shooting.

I have plenty of uses for it on the K-x Bor for video and photography. I've been wanting one since I learned of tilting and shifting. It looks like I might be ordering one in a few weeks now, the Arsat 35mm 2.8. For use on both my K-x and Z-1p. Also, I rather get both the perspective and tilting done when taking the picture rather than after.

A Fuji GX 680 might be an inbetween option. A Fuji GX 680 body and film back is quite a bit bigger than my Pentax 6x7 body, but start adding lenses and it gets closer, although the GX 680 is still significantly bigger overall. The Fuji GX 680 is somewhat smaller than my Speed Graphic with its bellows extended, but heavier.
The right angle finder and ability to tilt and shift is a great feature of the GX 680 (the "s" versions do not offer tilt shift from what I understand).

This looks like a great camera indeed. Not too expensive, and like you say, the in between option. I have not decided yet what I will do regarding larger formats, but I'm leaning towards both the Pentax 67II and a 4x5. The Toyo-Field 45CF (or 45AII, not sure which is the proper name) (Toyo-Field 45AII), it's not too expensive either, $894 at Adorama.

Congrats on your forthcoming 67II. Like Wheatfield said, in the studio you can control the ambient light where 1/30 won't be a problem. I have both the 90mm LS and 165mm LS lenses for my 67. I'd say they are handy to have. I'd give serious consideration to the 165mm LS for your studio regardless of the 1/30th issue. For one, it is a fine portrait lens and secondly it does expand your ability to balance ambient light with flashes in the likelihood you find the need for an environmental portrait.

Here are two examples of this girl I shot outdoors with the 165mm LS. I was able to select a faster -safer- shutter speed to balance the two flashes used in the scene with the sun light.

Ex 1 - 100TMX, 165mm LS, 1/60th
Ex 2 - 100TMX, 165mm LS, 1/60th

I'm a total WLF shooter with my 67. I'd say it is more useful than just macro work. The 100% view is great for landscapes on a tripod too and I really like the weight reduction and the magnifying glass it has for critical focus. I don't even need to wear my visual aids to focus with it.

I'm 100% I will need to control ambient light as I will be photographing outside as well, so if I end up with the 67II I'll try to get hold of at least the 165mm LF, but probably the 90mm LF later as well.

Do you just a viewfinder or waist level with yours? I would think for some macro work, waist level will be nice. Maybe street photography even?

[stevebrot]

...The Toyo-Field 45CF (or 45AII, not sure which is the proper name) (Toyo-Field 45AII), it's not too expensive either, $894 at Adorama...

The 45 CF is generally not well-recommended by the LF guys. It is basically a fairly flimsy plastic camera. The CF is supposed to stand for "carbon fiber", but it ain't. There is a guy on the LF forum who has a Wisner Traditional 4x5 with standard and bag bellows for $700. New Tachihara and Shen Hao are available for under $700 with Chamonix coming in bit higher at about $900. (I am the resident Chamonix fan boy.) Note that lens, lens board, cable release, and film backs do not generally come with the camera and can add $300+ (even used) to the final cost.

It should also be pointed out that Sinar F and F2 are fairly light and fairly portable and can be found with lenses for under $600 for the full kit.

Since I am just in the process of recovering from my recent trip down "LF lane", I would caution that the costs are like quicksand, even at the low end for cameras. I love my Chamonix and my two Caltar lenses (150mm and 90mm), but I ended up spending a ton more than I originally anticipated. You also might want to consider the price of film and processing (a minimum of about $0.85 per exposure if you process your own and about $2.70 if you have someone else do it...color is about $4.50 per exposure). The camera is beautiful, however and quite the conversation piece (LINK).


Steve

[Digitalis]

I would recommend the Sinar F and F2 as mentioned above. Sinar offer very good construction quality so even second hand equipment is bound to be in pretty good shape. Horseman 4X5 gear is also pretty affordable on the second hand market.

you might also want to see if you can find a Sinar C or C2 series camera which is an older but popular alternative to the F series.


Personally, I work with an Ebony 8X10 and 4X5 folding cameras and a Horseman LX and Sinar P2 with Rodenstock and Schneider lenses. The outlay for this kind of gear I use is enough to make the pope gag but fortunately, I inherited a lot of it from my family.

[netrex]

The 4x5 I really wanted was the Tachihara 4x5, but it's apparently out of production. I found it on Ken Rockwell's website, and he said he thought the Toyo might be a good replacement, but that he hadn't tested it yet.

I searched for the Tachihara on eBay and found a couple, but I also found this one: 4x5 Large Format Camera Classic Dark Red Wood - eBay (item 250637826112 end time Aug-21-10 01:55:42 PDT)

It seems nice, but I don't know what else I would need for it except for lenses. I'm waiting for the three books from Ansel Adams which I will be reading before I order anything. At least the first book, The Camera

I know how to develop B/W film and make simple copies, but I've never used a large format camera or done anything advanced during development, so those books will come in handy I think.

[Digitalis]

F.Y.I any advice Ken Rockwell gives should be taken with a bag of salt, and a shot of tequila to wash it down. His opinions are nothing short of biased and unenlightened, and he is considered a laughing stock in the photographic community at large.

Lenses are very expensive for LF especially if you want ones that perform well. One of the most important aspects of any LF lens is the size of it's imaging circle, which allows us to shift,tilt and swing with the freedom LF provides. The speed of it's aperture is not as important as it is with 35mm photography, of course a faster lens will make it easier to focus but shallow DOF effects are effortlessly achieved with 4X5. Personally I would buy a lens new if I was starting fresh. The shutters in them if abused, can become unreliable and/or develop problems with sync with flash heads.

[netrex]

F.Y.I any advice Ken Rockwell gives should be taken with a bag of salt, and a shot of tequila to wash it down. His opinions are nothing short of biased and unenlightened, and he is considered a laughing stock in the photographic community at large.

Lenses are very expensive for LF especially if you want ones that perform well. One of the most important aspects of any LF lens is the size of it's imaging circle, which allows us to shift,tilt and swing with the freedom LF provides. The speed of it's aperture is not as important as it is with 35mm photography, of course a faster lens will make it easier to focus but shallow DOF effects are effortlessly achieved with 4X5. Personally I would buy a lens new if I was starting fresh. The shutters in them if abused, can become unreliable and/or develop problems with sync with flash heads.

Yeah, I know of Rockwell and his way of writing :P My Rockwell-filter is well developed :P

The lenses I've looked at are rather expensive, so that might stop me from getting 4x5, or at least postpone it for a while. I'm still contemplating which way to go. I'm not in a rush though, I won't be able to buy anything just yet.

[tuco]

...
Do you just a viewfinder or waist level with yours? I would think for some macro work, waist level will be nice. Maybe street photography even?

I use the WLF aka the folding hood. There is a ridged chimney hood probably good for macro. In the last two years I've only shot two rolls using the TTL prism out of a lot rolls. But that has a lot to do with the type of shooting I've been doing lately where prism is not needed. The prism on a 67 is heavier than on the 67II.

[netrex]

I use the WLF aka the folding hood. There is a ridged chimney hood probably good for macro. In the last two years I've only shot two rolls using the TTL prism out of a lot rolls. But that has a lot to do with the type of shooting I've been doing lately where prism is not needed. The prism on a 67 is heavier than on the 67II.

Ah, I see now. I didn't know what WLF stood for, I was going to look it up, but forgot :P

[desertscape]

Your concerns about the 67II and its DOF are valid. However, if one reviews the lens selection offered by Pentax for this camera, you will notice that the newer lenses are more likely to have smaller stops and better DOF. I use the older P67 for nature and landscape work professionally. I have gravitated over the years to lenses that have the smaller stops. I have either sold or don't use the f/22 lenses anymore and switched to the f/32 and f/45 lenses. The 90-180 zoom (f/45) and 55-100 (f/32) come to mind. The DOF is really much improved over the old 150 Takumar, 105 and 75 Takumar. This setup may not match a 4x5 with movements but it does pretty good. Anyway, something to consider.

[netrex]

Your concerns about the 67II and its DOF are valid. However, if one reviews the lens selection offered by Pentax for this camera, you will notice that the newer lenses are more likely to have smaller stops and better DOF. I use the older P67 for nature and landscape work professionally. I have gravitated over the years to lenses that have the smaller stops. I have either sold or don't use the f/22 lenses anymore and switched to the f/32 and f/45 lenses. The 90-180 zoom (f/45) and 55-100 (f/32) come to mind. The DOF is really much improved over the old 150 Takumar, 105 and 75 Takumar. This setup may not match a 4x5 with movements but it does pretty good. Anyway, something to consider.

I think I'll be using the Pentax K-x with a 67II when I do get the 67II and use the K-x where the DoF the 67II gives me won't be enough, and then get a 4x5 at a later time. The 67II is something I'll be using for portraits as well.

[stevebrot]

The 4x5 I really wanted was the Tachihara 4x5, but it's apparently out of production...

Are you sure about the Tachi? I had heard various rumors regarding low availability (both Midwest and Badger are out of stock), but no confirmation of demise. Ted Bromell (bromwellmarketing.com) sells the Osaka which is reputed to be a rebranded Tachi. Give him a call. He is a wealth of information. You may want to consider Shen Hao as being equivalent to the Tachi. The main problem with Shen Hao is figuring out what model is appropriate.

Lenses are very expensive for LF especially if you want ones that perform well. One of the most important aspects of any LF lens is the size of it's imaging circle, which allows us to shift,tilt and swing with the freedom LF provides. The speed of it's aperture is not as important as it is with 35mm photography, of course a faster lens will make it easier to focus but shallow DOF effects are effortlessly achieved with 4X5. Personally I would buy a lens new if I was starting fresh. The shutters in them if abused, can become unreliable and/or develop problems with sync with flash heads.

The Large Format Photography site has a fairly comprehensive set of tables of lens data for comparison that includes coverage and most other important information. Here is a link for the table for 4x5 lenses:

lenses for 4x5 in

One brand that is worth consideration is Caltar. These are house brand for Calumet and are re-branded Schneider or Rodenstock. Price used is about 2/3 that of the name brand. As for issues with used lenses, the point about shutters is well made. Buy from a reputable seller and have the thing checked out by a repair shop on receipt. I got my Caltar II-N (APO Sironar N) 150/5.6 from Adorama for $245 and my Caltar II-N (Grandagon N) 90/6.8 locally for $300 from a down-sizing pro. Both lenses were in Ex+ condition so I am pretty pleased.


Steve

[tuco]

...
The Large Format Photography site has a fairly comprehensive set of tables of lens data for comparison that includes coverage and most other important information. Here is a link for the table for 4x5 lenses:

lenses for 4x5 in

One brand that is worth consideration is Caltar. These are house brand for Calumet and are re-branded Schneider or Rodenstock. Price used is about 2/3 that of the name brand. As for issues with used lenses, the point about shutters is well made. Buy from a reputable seller and have the thing checked out by a repair shop on receipt. I got my Caltar II-N (APO Sironar N) 150/5.6 from Adorama for $245 and my Caltar II-N (Grandagon N) 90/6.8 locally for $300 from a down-sizing pro. Both lenses were in Ex+ condition so I am pretty pleased.

Steve

+1 on that. LF lenses don't have to be expensive these days. I picked up a used Caltar-S II MC 210mm f5.6 (schneider lens) for $175 USD in excellent condition for instance. Where LF lenses get expensive is when you want really large image circles and a newer one. But frankly, the conditions where the largest image circles are needed, in my humble experience, are far and few between for most people. Now if you made a living shooting architecture that would be a different situation of course.

[Wheatfield]

The 4x5 I really wanted was the Tachihara 4x5, but it's apparently out of production. I found it on Ken Rockwell's website, and he said he thought the Toyo might be a good replacement, but that he hadn't tested it yet.

I searched for the Tachihara on eBay and found a couple, but I also found this one: 4x5 Large Format Camera Classic Dark Red Wood - eBay (item 250637826112 end time Aug-21-10 01:55:42 PDT)

It seems nice, but I don't know what else I would need for it except for lenses. I'm waiting for the three books from Ansel Adams which I will be reading before I order anything. At least the first book, The Camera

I know how to develop B/W film and make simple copies, but I've never used a large format camera or done anything advanced during development, so those books will come in handy I think.

I have a Tachihara. It's very nice, but is, like most field cameras, somewhat lacking in the movements department.
It has back tilt and rotation, but no shift, and has front rotation and tilt, but only vertical shift.
I still love it, but I do miss full movements.
I really wanted a Zone VI camera when I bought, but couldn't afford it.

[rhodopsin]

Just so somebody says it (I too assume you are well aware):

Besides the costly lenses, 4x5 film is more expensive to buy and process, and more difficult to use, than 6x7 120/220 roll film. 6x7 uses roll film; simply operate the winder to move a new frame into picture-taking position. Assume here you know the drill with 4x5 film...

[tuco]

Just so somebody says it (I too assume you are well aware):

Besides the costly lenses, 4x5 film is more expensive to buy and process, and more difficult to use, than 6x7 120/220 roll film. 6x7 uses roll film; simply operate the winder to move a new frame into picture-taking position. Assume here you know the drill with 4x5 film...

I picked up some of my 4x5 lenses cheaper than my P67 lenses and most certainly much cheaper than my Hasselblad lenses. Expensive? And per square inch of film you're buying, 4x5 sheet film is about the same price as roll film with some brands.