Additions/corrections to 6x7 lens database

Paul Ewins · 10-16-2010, 04:34 PM

Just a few points that I found while browsing the listings for 6x7 lenses that mainly pertains to the earliest lenses:

35/4.5 - first version is just the "FISH-EYE TAKUMAR/6x7", nothing SUPER about it.

400/4 (like the 600/4 & 800/4) are just known as "TAKUMAR/6x7", not SUPER TAKUMAR/6x7, just as the 35mm equivalents were Tele-Takumars, not Super Takumars.

1000 Reflex was initially the "REFLEX-TAKUMAR/6x7" and was 1000/7, not 1000/8. The SMC version is when it changed to 1000/8 (I have three different catalogs from Honeywell & Pentax Japan listing the 1000/7 so I'm fairly confident that this wasn't a typo)

The "P-ADAPTER FOR 6X7 LENS" is missing (that's the 6x7->M42 adapter)

Ole · 10-16-2010, 04:39 PM

Thanks! I will take a look and fix it!

surfotog · 10-16-2010, 04:56 PM

Hi Ole,
Could you also add to the 67 database the following items:

Pentax rear converter 2x
Pentax rear converter T6-2x
Pentax rear converter 1.4x

I have all of these, and found the optical differences between the two 2x converters. This information might be of use to those interested in buying a converter. Thanks.

Scott

Ole · 10-16-2010, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by surfotog

Hi Ole,
Could you also add to the 67 database the following items:

Pentax rear converter 2x
Pentax rear converter T6-2x
Pentax rear converter 1.4x

I have all of these, and found the optical differences between the two 2x converters. This information might be of use to those interested in buying a converter. Thanks.

Scott

I know of (from an old brochure) and have added the T6-2X and T5-1.4 converters.

6 x 7 Rear Converter T5-1.4X Lens Reviews - Pentax Lens Review Database

6x7 Rear Converter T6-2X Lens Reviews - Pentax Lens Review Database

What I don't know is:

- Do they transfer the aperture simulator and stop down lever?
- What focal range are they good for? The 1.4x surely doesn't look like a good fit for a 90mm lens! KEH.com claims 165mm to 400mm so that's what I am going with until further.

Any information on this would be appreciated.

Better photos of these converters would also be appreciated.

Are there other TC's than these two?

Last edited by Ole; 10-16-2010 at 08:38 PM.

surfotog · 10-16-2010, 08:21 PM

Ole,
The T5-1.4x is only for use with the M* 800/6.7 ED IF lens. It was designed specifically for this lens and the two were sold together. Due to its unusual design it won't fit other lenses.
The T6-2x was the earlier 2x converter, black in color, and is comprised of 6 elements in 6 groups. it is designed specifically for telephoto lenses. According to Pentax it is optomized for use at near infinity distances.

The two more modern converters are the rear converter 1.4x and rear converter 2x. Both are grey in color, and pentax claims compatibility with all lenses except the leaf shutter's. I don't recall the optical configurations, but they are different than the T5-1.4x and T6-2x

Scott

tuco · 10-16-2010, 11:06 PM

I thought the 6x7 35mm lens generation goes like this

Super Takumar Fisheye 1969
S-M-C Takumar Fisheye 1971
SMC Pentax Fisheye 1989

What year would the "FISH-EYE TAKUMAR/6x7" be?

Paul Ewins · 10-17-2010, 05:35 AM

AFAIK, there was no Super Takumar fisheye, it was just the plain "FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". The catalogs go straight from this to the "Super-Multi-Coated FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". What I have quoted is how it is printed on the lens barrel (I own the two earliest versions of the lens) and in the catalogs. Given the very short interval between the introduction of the 6x7 system and the changeover to SMC coatings it seems unlikely that there is another undocumented version of the fish-eye.

Maybe it should have been a SUPER-FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR, like the later version of the 17/4, since it does have the automatic diaphragm switch but I haven't seen any trace of one labelled like that. I'm trying to track down an early 135/4 Macro as well, to see whether that is just a MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7 or a SUPER-MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7.

tuco · 10-17-2010, 08:57 AM

I think what is labeled on the lens would be most accurate.

Ole · 10-17-2010, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by surfotog

Ole,
The T5-1.4x is only for use with the M* 800/6.7 ED IF lens. It was designed specifically for this lens and the two were sold together. Due to its unusual design it won't fit other lenses.
The T6-2x was the earlier 2x converter, black in color, and is comprised of 6 elements in 6 groups. it is designed specifically for telephoto lenses. According to Pentax it is optomized for use at near infinity distances.

The two more modern converters are the rear converter 1.4x and rear converter 2x. Both are grey in color, and pentax claims compatibility with all lenses except the leaf shutter's. I don't recall the optical configurations, but they are different than the T5-1.4x and T6-2x

Scott

Thanks. When I thought I understood it all I found this 2x converter with only the outer bayonet:

http://www.kameradoktor.de/67/con6x7aussen.jpg

So it appears that we have three 2x converters: T6-2x black (inner/outer), 2x grey (inner/outer), and 2x black (outer only). Can you confirm this?

Ole · 10-17-2010, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Paul Ewins

AFAIK, there was no Super Takumar fisheye, it was just the plain "FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". The catalogs go straight from this to the "Super-Multi-Coated FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". What I have quoted is how it is printed on the lens barrel (I own the two earliest versions of the lens) and in the catalogs. Given the very short interval between the introduction of the 6x7 system and the changeover to SMC coatings it seems unlikely that there is another undocumented version of the fish-eye.

Maybe it should have been a SUPER-FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR, like the later version of the 17/4, since it does have the automatic diaphragm switch but I haven't seen any trace of one labelled like that. I'm trying to track down an early 135/4 Macro as well, to see whether that is just a MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7 or a SUPER-MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7.

I will go with your information on the fish eye lens names since you have the lenses.

I was working off of D Colucci's tables, and he lists three variants: The Super TAKUMAR, the Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR and the smc PENTAX. Until someone shows me a photo I will assume that the "Super" version doesn't exist.

Ole · 10-17-2010, 01:25 PM

Is this correct regarding 800mm lenses - from D Colucci:

Variants:
1969: TAKUMAR/6x7 1:4/800
1971: Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR/6x7 1:4/800
1983: smc PENTAX-6x7 1:6.7 800mm ED
1989: smc PENTAX-M* 67 1:6.7 800mm ED

Wouldn't 1983 be awfully early for an M* type of lens (it isn't claimed to be labelled as such but it is claimed to be optically the same as the later M*)?

Or should the 1983 lens rather have been listed as an smc PENTAX variant of the earlier f/4 lens?

surfotog · 10-17-2010, 01:51 PM

Hi Ole,
I forgot about the 2x rear converter for outer bayonet lenses only. So yes, you are correct about the 3 different 2x converters.
As to the T5-1.4x: While designed for the M* 800/6.7, it's interesting to note that it does have an inner/outer bayonet, so perhaps it can be mounted to the 400/600/800 Takumars.

As to the variants of the 800mm lenses: I don't know much about the 800/4, but assume it follows the other Takumars that were introduced with the rest of the 67 system in 1969. As far as I know these were all Super Takumars, then became Super-Multicoated-Takumars in 1971.
I don't know the nomenclature of the first 800/6.7 ED IF (Was it an M*, I don't know), but from my research it was introduced in Feb. 1983. As far as I know it's optics have not changed.
1983, is not too early for such a lens. ED glass appeared in the late 70's.
The M* 800/6.7 is a beast, but is capable of very sharp images with the right technique ( no easy feat)

desertscape · 10-17-2010, 02:12 PM

My P67 Lens Booklet from May 1984 shows the 800 f/6.7 as being M* designated, so my guess is that this lens was called M* from the beginning.

My guess is that the 800 M* uses Fluorite along with a high index Barium glass. This lens cost $11,000 when new.

Ole · 10-17-2010, 02:26 PM

OK, so I think the 6x7 lens sections are now complete, and so is the section on adapters and teleconverters. Thanks for the help!!

Paul Ewins · 10-17-2010, 05:21 PM

The catalogs are a bit frustrating for dating evidence since often they don't have the actual dates on them and they appeared to stay the same for years at a time. All you can get is a rough sequence and if something falls between the catalogs you have no idea it existed. Dealer notes would be the best source for this sort of stuff.

The sequence (according to the catalogs) is roughly this:
* 35, 55/3.5, 75, 105, 135, 150, 200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 1000 - all Super Takumars or Takumars
* 35, 55/3.5, 75, 105, 135, 150, 200, 300, 400, 1000 - all Super-Multi-Coated Takumars - 600 & 800 still plain Takumar (this catalog dated 1/1975)
* 90/2.8 LS introduced, 35, 55/3.5, 75, 90LS, 105, 135, 150, 200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 1000 - all Super-Multi-Coated Takumars - the 6x7/Marine system appears in this catalog
* SMC Pentax/6x7 Shift 75/4.5 and SMC Pentax/6x7 500/5.6 introduced.
* SMC Pentax/6x7 45/4, 55/4, 90/2.8 (non LS), 165/2.8 & SMC Pentax-M* 800mm f/6.7 ED(IF) introduced (this catalog dated 11/83), 55/3.5 & 150/2.8 have been deleted.
* no change at 9/85
- these were all in the 6x7 era, I don't have any catalogs from the 67 era. Checking my 67 handbook (the silver one, my copy dated 1989) the 120 Soft, 165 LS and SMC Pentax-M*ED (IF) 400/4 have been added. All of the lenses are SMC Pentax 67, except for the 600/4 & 800/4 which are SMC Takumar 67.

My next catalog is from 2004 (67II) and the range is: 35, 45, 55, 75/4.5, 75 shift, 90, 90 LS, 100 macro, 105, 120 soft, 135 macro, 165, 165 LS, 200, 300, 300 M*, 400 M*, 500, 600, 800, 800 M*, 1000, 55-100.
Finally, a Japanese language catalog from 2008:
35, 45, 55, 75/2.8AL, 75/4.5, 75 shift, 90, 100 macro, 105, 120 soft, 135 macro, 165, 165 LS, 200, 300, 300 M*, 400 M*, 500, 800 M*, 55-100, 90-180.

10-16-2010, 04:34 PM	#1
Paul Ewins Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 274	Additions/corrections to 6x7 lens database Just a few points that I found while browsing the listings for 6x7 lenses that mainly pertains to the earliest lenses: 35/4.5 - first version is just the "FISH-EYE TAKUMAR/6x7", nothing SUPER about it. 400/4 (like the 600/4 & 800/4) are just known as "TAKUMAR/6x7", not SUPER TAKUMAR/6x7, just as the 35mm equivalents were Tele-Takumars, not Super Takumars. 1000 Reflex was initially the "REFLEX-TAKUMAR/6x7" and was 1000/7, not 1000/8. The SMC version is when it changed to 1000/8 (I have three different catalogs from Honeywell & Pentax Japan listing the 1000/7 so I'm fairly confident that this wasn't a typo) The "P-ADAPTER FOR 6X7 LENS" is missing (that's the 6x7->M42 adapter)

10-16-2010, 11:06 PM	#6
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,019	I thought the 6x7 35mm lens generation goes like this Super Takumar Fisheye 1969 S-M-C Takumar Fisheye 1971 SMC Pentax Fisheye 1989 What year would the "FISH-EYE TAKUMAR/6x7" be?

10-17-2010, 09:34 AM	#9
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	The plot thickens Originally posted by surfotog Ole, The T5-1.4x is only for use with the M* 800/6.7 ED IF lens. It was designed specifically for this lens and the two were sold together. Due to its unusual design it won't fit other lenses. The T6-2x was the earlier 2x converter, black in color, and is comprised of 6 elements in 6 groups. it is designed specifically for telephoto lenses. According to Pentax it is optomized for use at near infinity distances. The two more modern converters are the rear converter 1.4x and rear converter 2x. Both are grey in color, and pentax claims compatibility with all lenses except the leaf shutter's. I don't recall the optical configurations, but they are different than the T5-1.4x and T6-2x Scott Thanks. When I thought I understood it all I found this 2x converter with only the outer bayonet: http://www.kameradoktor.de/67/con6x7aussen.jpg So it appears that we have three 2x converters: T6-2x black (inner/outer), 2x grey (inner/outer), and 2x black (outer only). Can you confirm this? Last edited by Ole; 10-17-2010 at 10:31 AM.

10-17-2010, 01:25 PM	#11
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	Is this correct regarding 800mm lenses? Is this correct regarding 800mm lenses - from D Colucci: Variants: 1969: TAKUMAR/6x7 1:4/800 1971: Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR/6x7 1:4/800 1983: smc PENTAX-6x7 1:6.7 800mm ED 1989: smc PENTAX-M* 67 1:6.7 800mm ED Wouldn't 1983 be awfully early for an M* type of lens (it isn't claimed to be labelled as such but it is claimed to be optically the same as the later M*)? Or should the 1983 lens rather have been listed as an smc PENTAX variant of the earlier f/4 lens?

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10-16-2010, 04:39 PM	#2
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	Thanks! I will take a look and fix it!

10-16-2010, 04:56 PM	#3
surfotog Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Honolulu Posts: 150	Hi Ole, Could you also add to the 67 database the following items: Pentax rear converter 2x Pentax rear converter T6-2x Pentax rear converter 1.4x I have all of these, and found the optical differences between the two 2x converters. This information might be of use to those interested in buying a converter. Thanks. Scott

10-16-2010, 08:01 PM	#4
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	Originally posted by surfotog Hi Ole, Could you also add to the 67 database the following items: Pentax rear converter 2x Pentax rear converter T6-2x Pentax rear converter 1.4x I have all of these, and found the optical differences between the two 2x converters. This information might be of use to those interested in buying a converter. Thanks. Scott I know of (from an old brochure) and have added the T6-2X and T5-1.4 converters. 6 x 7 Rear Converter T5-1.4X Lens Reviews - Pentax Lens Review Database 6x7 Rear Converter T6-2X Lens Reviews - Pentax Lens Review Database What I don't know is: - Do they transfer the aperture simulator and stop down lever? - What focal range are they good for? The 1.4x surely doesn't look like a good fit for a 90mm lens! KEH.com claims 165mm to 400mm so that's what I am going with until further. Any information on this would be appreciated. Better photos of these converters would also be appreciated. Are there other TC's than these two? Last edited by Ole; 10-16-2010 at 08:38 PM.

10-16-2010, 08:21 PM	#5
surfotog Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Honolulu Posts: 150	Ole, The T5-1.4x is only for use with the M* 800/6.7 ED IF lens. It was designed specifically for this lens and the two were sold together. Due to its unusual design it won't fit other lenses. The T6-2x was the earlier 2x converter, black in color, and is comprised of 6 elements in 6 groups. it is designed specifically for telephoto lenses. According to Pentax it is optomized for use at near infinity distances. The two more modern converters are the rear converter 1.4x and rear converter 2x. Both are grey in color, and pentax claims compatibility with all lenses except the leaf shutter's. I don't recall the optical configurations, but they are different than the T5-1.4x and T6-2x Scott

10-17-2010, 05:35 AM	#7
Paul Ewins Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 274 Original Poster	AFAIK, there was no Super Takumar fisheye, it was just the plain "FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". The catalogs go straight from this to the "Super-Multi-Coated FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". What I have quoted is how it is printed on the lens barrel (I own the two earliest versions of the lens) and in the catalogs. Given the very short interval between the introduction of the 6x7 system and the changeover to SMC coatings it seems unlikely that there is another undocumented version of the fish-eye. Maybe it should have been a SUPER-FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR, like the later version of the 17/4, since it does have the automatic diaphragm switch but I haven't seen any trace of one labelled like that. I'm trying to track down an early 135/4 Macro as well, to see whether that is just a MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7 or a SUPER-MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7.

10-17-2010, 08:57 AM	#8
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,019	I think what is labeled on the lens would be most accurate.

10-17-2010, 11:09 AM	#10
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	Originally posted by Paul Ewins AFAIK, there was no Super Takumar fisheye, it was just the plain "FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". The catalogs go straight from this to the "Super-Multi-Coated FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR/6x7". What I have quoted is how it is printed on the lens barrel (I own the two earliest versions of the lens) and in the catalogs. Given the very short interval between the introduction of the 6x7 system and the changeover to SMC coatings it seems unlikely that there is another undocumented version of the fish-eye. Maybe it should have been a SUPER-FISH-EYE-TAKUMAR, like the later version of the 17/4, since it does have the automatic diaphragm switch but I haven't seen any trace of one labelled like that. I'm trying to track down an early 135/4 Macro as well, to see whether that is just a MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7 or a SUPER-MACRO-TAKUMAR/6x7. I will go with your information on the fish eye lens names since you have the lenses. I was working off of D Colucci's tables, and he lists three variants: The Super TAKUMAR, the Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR and the smc PENTAX. Until someone shows me a photo I will assume that the "Super" version doesn't exist.

10-17-2010, 01:51 PM	#12
surfotog Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Honolulu Posts: 150	Hi Ole, I forgot about the 2x rear converter for outer bayonet lenses only. So yes, you are correct about the 3 different 2x converters. As to the T5-1.4x: While designed for the M* 800/6.7, it's interesting to note that it does have an inner/outer bayonet, so perhaps it can be mounted to the 400/600/800 Takumars. As to the variants of the 800mm lenses: I don't know much about the 800/4, but assume it follows the other Takumars that were introduced with the rest of the 67 system in 1969. As far as I know these were all Super Takumars, then became Super-Multicoated-Takumars in 1971. I don't know the nomenclature of the first 800/6.7 ED IF (Was it an M, I don't know), but from my research it was introduced in Feb. 1983. As far as I know it's optics have not changed. 1983, is not too early for such a lens. ED glass appeared in the late 70's. The M 800/6.7 is a beast, but is capable of very sharp images with the right technique ( no easy feat)

10-17-2010, 02:12 PM	#13
desertscape Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,272	My P67 Lens Booklet from May 1984 shows the 800 f/6.7 as being M* designated, so my guess is that this lens was called M* from the beginning. My guess is that the 800 M* uses Fluorite along with a high index Barium glass. This lens cost $11,000 when new.

10-17-2010, 02:26 PM	#14
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	OK, so I think the 6x7 lens sections are now complete, and so is the section on adapters and teleconverters. Thanks for the help!!

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10-17-2010, 05:21 PM	#15
Paul Ewins Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 274 Original Poster	The catalogs are a bit frustrating for dating evidence since often they don't have the actual dates on them and they appeared to stay the same for years at a time. All you can get is a rough sequence and if something falls between the catalogs you have no idea it existed. Dealer notes would be the best source for this sort of stuff. The sequence (according to the catalogs) is roughly this: * 35, 55/3.5, 75, 105, 135, 150, 200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 1000 - all Super Takumars or Takumars * 35, 55/3.5, 75, 105, 135, 150, 200, 300, 400, 1000 - all Super-Multi-Coated Takumars - 600 & 800 still plain Takumar (this catalog dated 1/1975) * 90/2.8 LS introduced, 35, 55/3.5, 75, 90LS, 105, 135, 150, 200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 1000 - all Super-Multi-Coated Takumars - the 6x7/Marine system appears in this catalog * SMC Pentax/6x7 Shift 75/4.5 and SMC Pentax/6x7 500/5.6 introduced. * SMC Pentax/6x7 45/4, 55/4, 90/2.8 (non LS), 165/2.8 & SMC Pentax-M* 800mm f/6.7 ED(IF) introduced (this catalog dated 11/83), 55/3.5 & 150/2.8 have been deleted. * no change at 9/85 - these were all in the 6x7 era, I don't have any catalogs from the 67 era. Checking my 67 handbook (the silver one, my copy dated 1989) the 120 Soft, 165 LS and SMC Pentax-MED (IF) 400/4 have been added. All of the lenses are SMC Pentax 67, except for the 600/4 & 800/4 which are SMC Takumar 67. My next catalog is from 2004 (67II) and the range is: 35, 45, 55, 75/4.5, 75 shift, 90, 90 LS, 100 macro, 105, 120 soft, 135 macro, 165, 165 LS, 200, 300, 300 M, 400 M, 500, 600, 800, 800 M, 1000, 55-100. Finally, a Japanese language catalog from 2008: 35, 45, 55, 75/2.8AL, 75/4.5, 75 shift, 90, 100 macro, 105, 120 soft, 135 macro, 165, 165 LS, 200, 300, 300 M, 400 M, 500, 800 M*, 55-100, 90-180.