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01-01-2011, 03:57 PM   #16
stp
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I've use the 67 with MLU and a 645NII. I eventually went with the 645NII primarily because of weight (which is not, at the moment, an issue for you). I like the lens selection for the 645, and the zooms are generally considered of equal quality to the primes. The 645NII has been my favorite film camera for a long time.

However, with the advent of the 645D, lenses for the 645 are nearly impossible to find. As soon as the 645D was officially announced (after 5 years), KEH sold out virtually overnight. They remain in very short supply even today.

01-01-2011, 07:43 PM   #17
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Hi Leping,

Thank you for taking the time to post in this forum - it is not often that we are able to learn from one who routinely pushes the 67 to the limit by printing such large photos - this is really what the 67 is made for, and you are right to imply that mastering technique is essential in obtaining satisfying large format prints. I have also been to your website a number of times in the past - very fine work indeed.

I wanted to add a little to your statements about controlling shutter vibrations. I have spent a great amount of time trying to minimise such vibrations and agree that to really have a positive impact, one must pay attention to all details of the mounting.

Early on, I started to use a rail mount attaching both the lens mount and the camera to it, as shown in the attached photo. It was at first to compensate for the flimsy lens mounts on Carl Zeiss Jena lenses that I adapted to the 67, but eventually I have come to use it for all my long lenses. Being able to slide the camera lens back and forth, I thought, would allow me to find the spot where thecamera/lens is perfectly balanced, allowing easy movement on the head. However, as you point out, long overhang of the camera back will increase the effect of shutter vibration through torsion because of the long moment arm between the shutter and the central vertical axis of the tripod. Now, I move the camera/lens forward in the mount from the balanced point. This allows the shutter to be placed close to the tripod axis, thus reducing the magnitude of the torsional vibration. Additionally, out of balance mass from the lens acts to reduce torsional vibration. The rail mount allows one to do this without the worry of large lens overhang damaging the lens mount.

I use a Series 5 Gitzo hydrostatic head that mounts into my Gitzo G1500 three section tripod. The head has two advantages: the vertical distance from the top of the tripod to the mounting plate is small, and the central shaft is thick steel, both of which reduce the amplitude of torsional vibrations. The tripod itself is made of aluminium and weighs just short of 5kg, with main tube diameter of 37mm. This tripod is very stiff torsionally, but even so, I rarely extend the second tubes more than 250mm, and I almost never extend the third tubes.

I have found that it is simply not sufficient to just hang mass from the hook beneath the head. Such mass mounting does not help at all to resist torsion within the system as it is mounted on-axis, although it does help to prevent the tripod falling over if mass is to be added elsewhere. As I do - I take a divers weight belt with about 14 kg of lead shot in it and drape it over the lens - this puts mass on the lens where it is most needed.

Finally, I hold the tripod firmly just below the head with one hand to dampen torsion in the tripod and hold the camera with the other hand to dampen torsion at the camera/lens level.

If I do all of these things, I can get very sharp shots using my 400 Takumar and a 2X converter.

Best, Alan

QuoteOriginally posted by leping Quote
Hi Luc,

The infrared works were out of a converted Canon 5D not the 67. You can tell from the 3:2 aspect ratio -- I never crop my composition. I hate Canon bodies absolutely but have to still use it since multiple advantages with IR in the sensor and AF systems over Nikon, my much preferred 35mm system. For one I can't check sharpness at focus point at 100% pixels without multiple (actually 6) pushes which drives me continuous crazy while with Nikon bodies it is one touch. Canons are for ladies not photographers unless they have special needs.

I was a mechanic for many years. I modified my heavy Gitzo 1548 tripod so that I can hang my 35lbs+ backpack to the center column vert securely high up nearing the disk. Then of course MLP, long soft release and self-timer, plus all my body weight over the body to further dampen the shutter vibration, and never bother with 1/8 and 1/15 speed.

It is not mirror but the horizontal traveling of the shutter, which creates an internal torque so that the camera will shake, actually twist or rotate horizontally. With a laser pen you can easily see how the beam jump on a wall easily even on a tripod. As the result the landscape shots are not sharp (through my 22x loupe or after scanned either drum or Imacon/Hasselblad) if the above techniques are not applied, but if I only shoot vertical I can get away with much flimsy setups such as a Bogen 3021. You can clearly see the blur pattern is always horizontal. 67II (I went through 3 bodies and thousands of rolls) is little bit better than the old 67 but not by too much.

Even I use all the damping techniques mentioned above, avoided triggering with slightest amount of wind, and with focusing untouched, with the long 67 lenses (80-160 at the long end, 165, 200, and especially the 300 ED IF, some times with 1.4x) I could manage to get out one really sharp chromes in every 3-4, for reasons I still don't fully understand, so I often got hand cramp from film winding and shutter pushing in exciting days. If you only print 20x24 you may not need to waste so much film, but if you look close the 48x60 in my client's lobby you know what I am talking about. The 300 ED IF is specially hard because it is such a super sharp lens by itself, and any vibration will show clearly. I also learned I have let the camera stand on the tripod (actually my heavy Arca-Swiss B2G Giant head which helps) and let the long lenses hang out, not to use the collars on the lenses themselves. Letting the 67 hang on the lens end is calling for failures.

I have never got sharp results with the 2x on film, no matter what I do. I read people had to resort to two tripods to use long lenses on the Pentax 67. However, when I tried it with the 300 ED IF on a Canon 5DII (before I converted it to IR at maxmax.com) I get sharp results on the 5um spacing sensor, thus I learned the problem is not the Pentax optics, which is second to none to me, but still instability in the support, or inadequacy of my shooting method. That time the Canon was hanging from the lens and you see how different it is when you have the Pentax 67 at the same position.

All these said, I love the Pentax 67 system and still use it when possible. But, I repeat what I said, it needs thorough testing and understanding, and you can not be lazy or wish you can get good result without carrying heavily, unless you only shoot wide angle (even I did see horizontal blurs with the 45mm lens on a 3021, my first tripod before I found it has a big play and does not resist any twist force).

Thank you,

Leping
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Last edited by ARCASIA; 01-01-2011 at 07:57 PM.
01-01-2011, 10:58 PM   #18
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Hi Alan,

This is great and serious learning to me, as well as to all wants to get the most out of Pentax 67. Thank you so much!

As I implied my technique is still not perfect, as I could not really get every chromes sharp to the extent I wished.

All the best,

Leping
01-02-2011, 12:55 PM   #19
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Thanks for the help

Folks, thank you for your help. I’d like to reply to several of you below.

To Arcasia:
You are indeed correct. My film area ratios were in error. Once again I got sucked in by “advertising numbers” Vs real dimensions. Measuring 35 mm slides yields 7.71 cm2 (34.5 mm X 22.4 mm) and transparencies from my Yashica are 5.6 cm X 5.71 cm for 32.2 cm2. This gives an area ratio of 4.2 to 1. Assuming that the area losses at 4.5 cm nominal and 7 cm nominal are the same as for 6 cm, ratioing the 6 x 6 area gives 24.2 cm2 for the 6x4.5 and 37.6 cm2 for the 6x7. This all yields the following table:
(I can't get the %^%$ format to come across.)
Camera "film" size
Area Ratio
35 mm

1.0

6 x 4.5

3.1

6 x 6

4.2

6 x 7

4.9

4 x 5

16.2




This puts a somewhat different view on the relative benefits of 6 x7 Vs 6x4.5 although the area ratio between them is still 1.5 to 1.

Thanks for the input on the difference in availability of lenses and for your conclusion supporting the desirability of big negatives.

To leping:
I went to your website following Thomas’s link. I am in awe! I am also very honored that a photographer of your capabilities could take the time to provide such very detailed and helpful advice. I then figured out that tuco was being humorous when he suggested that I check to see if you even owned a 6x7. Your pictures show me that a master has chosen the Pentax medium format system. That is solid confirmation that one of the Pentax MF systems is what I should choose.

To tuco:
Thank you for your message pointing out the difference between resolution and award winning photography. Neither the 645 nor the 67 can help me be in the right place at the right time knowing how to obtain the best exposure. Those with leping’s talent and experience have already conquered these fundamentals and can use the added efforts he describes to wring the last bit of excellence out of the shot he has obviously worked very hard to get. I can only strive in that direction.

To ibenac:
You are the voice of Satan, tempting me to buy both systems. My wife is already looking at me with a very raised eyebrow.. She thought that when I gave up racing sports cars life would be more serene or at least less messy. Also, what does “CLA” stand for?

To stevebrot:
Thanks for the tip on Blue Moon’s possible 67. Hefting it is a great idea; nothing like reality. They don’t have it listed on their website but they seemed to have a lot of stuff sitting around the one time I was there. I’ll give them a call Monday to see if they still have one. St John’s is a long drive from Fairview thru the heart of Portland.

Next Question:
The next big question is “What the heck does everybody do with all their keeper pictures?” There’s a physical limit to the number of albums, photo books, prints, etc. that any one family can absorb. Digitizing compresses the storage but reduces the quality.

01-02-2011, 01:18 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by antiquerookie Quote

To ibenac:
You are the voice of Satan, tempting me to buy both systems. My wife is already looking at me with a very raised eyebrow.. She thought that when I gave up racing sports cars life would be more serene or at least less messy. Also, what does “CLA” stand for?


Next Question:
The next big question is “What the heck does everybody do with all their keeper pictures?” There’s a physical limit to the number of albums, photo books, prints, etc. that any one family can absorb. Digitizing compresses the storage but reduces the quality.

Well you do not have to do it all at once
I would suggest that you look at a 645 first (no AF great price) and grab some lenses while there are a few still around. Thanksfully the 645D crowd is looking first and foremost at the FA - get the A and manual focus - nothing wrong with that.
Use it, have fun with it, forget about the ultimate setup to remove any form of vibration - it will be windy anyway the day you want to shoot and everything will go to the dogs

In the meantime put a few bucks in the piggy bank and by the time you feel that you want more from your neg - you will have the cash and the time to sweep a great deal on a 67 system and a monster surveyor wooden tripod and a mule to carry everything including the 645 system as a backup

Well some of the keepers from yesterday or today will be the reject of tomorrow as your eye and mind change so there is an external storage that will get these and that you can tuck safely away or I even use the Delete key as often as i can and probably not as often as i should

At the end of the day most of us are not professionals and while we enjoy sharing some photos between us in the forums it is sometime a selfish pleasure and a form of self satisfaction - shooting just for yourself and the heck with anything else...

Cheers,

Luc
01-02-2011, 03:36 PM   #21
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Three comments:

1) If you want to print big, or want to use high power telephoto setups on MF, and insist on high resolution, you MUST carefully consider camera support. No question, no doubt. If you do not print big, my suggestion is to go back to 35mm film or digital as medium format systems by comparison are very limited, heavy and cumbersome.

2) If it is a windy day, wait for another day - to me, that is the essense of MF film photography: you cannot always get what you want when you want it; many times you must wait patiently for the right shot to avail itself. If that doesn't work for you, and you must have the shot, don't try to force it - use a different camera system. If you wait and the right conditions avail themselves, then you are still left confronting a large number of technical considerations to be overcome, including those related to image stabilisation.

3) As for mule packing and using monster wooden surveyer's tripods, don't knock it until you've tried it. A good friend of mine packed in 67 equipment on mules along the old silk route from Chengdu in southwestern China to Lhasa in Tibet for six months and came back with some of the most stunning landscape and cultural photos I've ever seen.

Alan

QuoteOriginally posted by lbenac Quote
Well you do not have to do it all at once
I would suggest that you look at a 645 first (no AF great price) and grab some lenses while there are a few still around. Thanksfully the 645D crowd is looking first and foremost at the FA - get the A and manual focus - nothing wrong with that.
Use it, have fun with it, forget about the ultimate setup to remove any form of vibration - it will be windy anyway the day you want to shoot and everything will go to the dogs

In the meantime put a few bucks in the piggy bank and by the time you feel that you want more from your neg - you will have the cash and the time to sweep a great deal on a 67 system and a monster surveyor wooden tripod and a mule to carry everything including the 645 system as a backup

Well some of the keepers from yesterday or today will be the reject of tomorrow as your eye and mind change so there is an external storage that will get these and that you can tuck safely away or I even use the Delete key as often as i can and probably not as often as i should

At the end of the day most of us are not professionals and while we enjoy sharing some photos between us in the forums it is sometime a selfish pleasure and a form of self satisfaction - shooting just for yourself and the heck with anything else...

Cheers,

Luc
01-02-2011, 05:02 PM   #22
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Pentax 645NII vs 67II

I have both the Pentax 645N and the 67II. Whenever you get a WOW picture on the 645 you'll wish it was on the 67. Loading and shooting is faster with the 645. The 645N is more durable than the 67II as my 67II has been Pentax for repair about five times. If I had to choose between all my film cameras as to a favorite, it would be the 67II. The 645N would be number four on my favorites list. Since 645N lenses are said to have skyrocketed in price, you might want to consider the Fuji GA645ZI as a partner to the 67II. The ZI lens is as sharp with superb color as any Pentax lens I own. Keep your Yashica TLR. I have the Yashicamat D and have several 20x20 black & whites on the wall from it and people are always amazed when I tell them which camera they came from.
01-02-2011, 08:38 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Harry Potter Quote
I have both the Pentax 645N and the 67II. Whenever you get a WOW picture on the 645 you'll wish it was on the 67. Loading and shooting is faster with the 645. The 645N is more durable than the 67II as my 67II has been Pentax for repair about five times. If I had to choose between all my film cameras as to a favorite, it would be the 67II. The 645N would be number four on my favorites list. Since 645N lenses are said to have skyrocketed in price, you might want to consider the Fuji GA645ZI as a partner to the 67II. The ZI lens is as sharp with superb color as any Pentax lens I own. Keep your Yashica TLR. I have the Yashicamat D and have several 20x20 black & whites on the wall from it and people are always amazed when I tell them which camera they came from.
Harry;
Three questions:
1. What are cameras 2 and 3 in your list of favorites? I looked at some info on the Fuji and it doesn't ring my bell.
2. What are the features of the 67II that make it your favorite film camera even though it doesn't seem to be very reliable.
3. What is it about the 645N that dropped it to 4th in your list of favorites?

Thanks;
Antique Rookie

01-03-2011, 01:57 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by ARCASIA Quote
1) If you do not print big, my suggestion is to go back to 35mm film or digital as medium format systems by comparison are very limited, heavy and cumbersome.
I do strongly disagree with your comment from my point of view (what I shoot and b&w). I find a 645 with 45/75/150 or 35/55/75/150 not that bulkier to carry and use than a LX with L bracket and lenses. Going to a RF 645 like Fuji or Bronica would even further reduce the difference if at a somewhat higher cost.
And printing anything over 8x10 will get better results from a 645 than a 135 in many cases - enough to justify using a 645.
It is funny as many people will go to certain extremes but will not acknowledge that there might still be incremental steps that can be of benefits to the more common of us see second comment

As far as long lenses I am sure that you are totally right as I never use one for what I shoot.

QuoteOriginally posted by ARCASIA Quote
2) If it is a windy day, wait for another day - to me, that is the essense of MF film photography: you cannot always get what you want when you want it; many times you must wait patiently for the right shot to avail itself. If that doesn't work for you, and you must have the shot, don't try to force it - use a different camera system. If you wait and the right conditions avail themselves, then you are still left confronting a large number of technical considerations to be overcome, including those related to image stabilisation.
Or take the shot with what you have that does not waste too much i.e. not a 8x10 plate. Look at that shot to see what could be improved upon and make a mental or written note to come back when the conditions are right and karma is good. My guess is that you will have over time several different shots and one will replace the other until you are perfectly satisfied. It is not a one bullet approach but it can also be rewarding as you see your shots improve.
My point is you do not necessarily have to go to the extreme of technical engineering or give-up entirely medium format as some comments suggests. You can also have fun without taking yourself too seriously and practise and improve over time. And as you feel the need, improve on your equipment and technical process as you go. It is all a question of perspective and of what you want to do.

QuoteOriginally posted by ARCASIA Quote
3) As for mule packing and using monster wooden surveyer's tripods, don't knock it until you've tried it. A good friend of mine packed in 67 equipment on mules along the old silk route from Chengdu in southwestern China to Lhasa in Tibet for six months and came back with some of the most stunning landscape and cultural photos I've ever seen.

Alan
I certainly don't knock it and would love to have some form of help carrying my equipment around but unless I become very wealthy or become a professional photographer I will still be reduced to carry my own gear and I will still take a camera with me the days I cannot carry the heavier stuff. So a normal tripod and a MF with me will certainly beat a MF and surveyor tripod at home - not that there will not be days that I will not beat up myself for not having the former with me So one does not preclude the other and it is fine to start smaller and go bigger over time.

Was the friend you are referring to recently published? If it is not him then there was also another trekker published in Photographer Forum or Photo Life I cannot remember the magazine.

No offense intented with my post but there are several approachs to MF or photography in general and it does not necessarely have to be with the most extreme setup - this of course does not remove any value to your point of view and technical advice regarding your specific goals and you make a valid point regarding extracting the ultimate in negative quality - it is just that not all of us will set this as our goal and will still be happy realizing 95% of the result with 50% of the cost (arguably the % will be different in anybody's mind). This does not mean that we should not pretend to shoot MF and only use 135 or digital...or that this goal might not change over time.

Cheers,

Luc

Last edited by lbenac; 01-03-2011 at 08:11 AM.
01-03-2011, 02:09 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Harry Potter Quote
Since 645N lenses are said to have skyrocketed in price, you might want to consider the Fuji GA645ZI as a partner to the 67II. The ZI lens is as sharp with superb color as any Pentax lens I own. Keep your Yashica TLR. I have the Yashicamat D and have several 20x20 black & whites on the wall from it and people are always amazed when I tell them which camera they came from.


There is a Bronica 645 RF with a couple of lenses on sale in the Classified of Rangefinder forum right now but the price looks higher than a Pentax 645 system unless 645 lenses have indeed gone crazy expensive. This is also an alternative.

Edit: Just checked KEH and there is no 645 lenses for sale at all - well i guess if the case is the same elsewhere that diminishes the interest for a 645/N. My set of lenses (35/45/55/75/120/150)has just appreciated in value




Rangefinderforum Photo Equipment Classifieds - Bronica RF645- Body, 45/4 and 100/4.5 - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

I would not give up my Minolta Autocord TLR...




Cheers,

Luc

Last edited by lbenac; 01-03-2011 at 08:10 AM.
01-03-2011, 07:09 AM   #26
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Number 2 on the list is my Ebony S45 large format camera and number 3 is the Fuji GA645ZI. Since I mainly shoot landscape and print big, size matters. Regretfully the wind blows here most of the time and limits my usage of the Ebony so the 67II gets used more. The ZI gets used more than the 645N because it is remarkably smaller and is like carrying several lenses in one. The ZI is smaller than a 645n zoom alone. I always shoot both color and black and white at the same time and the Fuji ZI meters perfectly with a red-orange filter on it. The 645n with zoom is so big so why not just grab the 67II. I purchased the 645n as a backup for the 67II and it does the job nicely. I mainly get to my locations from a motorcycle or a Jeep. The ZI and K-x fit nicely together in the tank bag and I carry a tripod and the bigger cameras on the back of the bike. The ZI also makes a great travelling companion with a TLR. Number 5 film camera on my list is the Rapid Omega 200, another great one for B&W 6x7. If I could a afford a 645D, it would certainly be number one on the list.
01-03-2011, 11:10 PM   #27
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I looked at KEH today and they had NO lenses at all (A or AF) for the Pentax 645.
01-03-2011, 11:40 PM   #28
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Harry;
Re your "Number 5 film camera on my list is the Rapid Omega 200, another great one for B&W 6x7"

I hadn't heard of the Koni-Omega Rapid cameras until you mentioned yours. I did some web surfing with my friend Google and found that they seem to be well regarded. They're as ugly as a mud fence but I love that film winder! It really appeals to my mechanical engineering soul. There are a couple on ebay at very reasonable prices, especially compared to Pentax 645s and 67s, that have return privilages.

I have some questions for you about them:
Why do you limit it to B&W?
What lenses do you use?
What comments might you have about them, particularly in comparison to the Pentax 645 series?
What are your views about the relative merits of the Rapid 100, 200, and M?

Thanks
01-04-2011, 07:23 AM   #29
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You’re right ugly as a “mud fence” but now I can’t wait to find a mud fence to shoot with it. The M and the 200 are a little more versatile and the 100 is a little lighter. I kept just the 200 because I thought it being all black made it the best looking one. I had at one time all four lenses but sold the most prized one the 135mm and actually put that money into my 645N. I mainly use the 58mm Hexanon which takes an old Series something filter size. Nothing modern fits it so I had SK Grimes make an adapter ring to go from the Series size which is close to 54.?mm to a 58mm filter ring. Why not color? Because I like using a polarizer and that’s hard to do on a rangefinder and the SMC Pentax glass renders perhaps richer colors. On the other hand I have I have a 20x30 night shot-star trails on the wall from the Koni and the colors are really rich. Of course color saturation is all adjustable in software. The 58mm is really sharp. If you call Paul Ebel at Lens Services is Wisconsin he’ll tell you it is one of the best lenses ever made. So pretty much leave a red-orange BW filter on the 58mm all the time and shoot the now discontinued Fuji Neopan 400 as film of choice. I only have about 20 rolls left in the freeze and now see Fuji is discontinuing Across 100. I also really like Rollie IR 400. That’s a whole different forum.
Now if you pick an outfit up on EBay and find your not getting the results you should, it probably is a problem with the film back. They have to be properly serviced or the focus will be off. Every film back I won off EBay had to be sent to Greg Weber in Nebraska for service. In fact the best bet might be buying a camera and film back from Greg because you’re going to end up sending it all there any way.
In very cold temps the film back can get stiff to pull and push. I use a tripod always no matter what film camera (digital not included)! This camera like the 645N allows you to put a Arca mount on two sides. You can easily put a spirit level on top. The 200 allows mid roll film change the 645N does not. This is a great night photography camera as is the 645N.
When you’re at a National Park using this camera people are just totally dumb founded and think it’s something built by NASA.
01-04-2011, 08:37 AM   #30
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Best looking mud fence?!? Thanks for the info.

You answered the question I forgot to ask, which was about filter size. Looks like I'm in for a hunt. I have a good friend who's a retired machinest / model maker so that may help. There's a camera repair shop here in Portland that's done quite satisfactory work on my 35mm cameras. If I have problems they may be able to take care of them. I'm saving the names you mentioned as a backstop.

Thanks again!
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