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03-26-2011, 09:03 AM   #1
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645 lens availability better now

It's easier to get used 645 lenses now and prices have stabilized. 2 months ago, there was nothing available.

Have the hoarders made their mint after buying everything in advance of the 645D?

Is a similar effect going to happen if they announce a 67D camera?

03-26-2011, 09:30 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
It's easier to get used 645 lenses now and prices have stabilized. 2 months ago, there was nothing available.

Have the hoarders made their mint after buying everything in advance of the 645D?

Is a similar effect going to happen if they announce a 67D camera?
Regarding the 67D I already have the 55mm, 90mm, 200mm and 400mm with the 75mm shift, 35mm fish-eye and 75mm regular being on their way to me. So hoarders won't get anything from me! I only need the 100 macro for a complete set.
03-26-2011, 09:47 AM   #3
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Hi pz1fan, I hope this won't appear as if I am being rude but it would help if you stated where the situation is getting better. If for instance this is the U.S. then it might not apply to me in the U.K.

Same goes for general product availability etc. Different markets can reflect quite different situations in terms of availability and price.

Sorry if this appears to be an unnecessarily and slightly bad tempered response. It isn't meant that way.

Actually the solution to this lies in the details that are available at the side. If users put in country in which they are located then problem solved.

If you were to ask about say film sources or other materials for instance then I know that telling you that a U.K. shop has some bargains or the local branch of Wilkinson's ( a U.K. general stores sort of place) isn't going to be relevant.

I hope you are right about prices. We in the U.K. seem to have to spend a lot more for the same stuff. There is even a thread on this in APUG with reference to Ilford products but that another story.

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03-26-2011, 10:20 AM   #4
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I would love to see/buy a 67D to use with my extensive set of 67 lenses......but I really doubt it will happen in my lifetime, if ever. Apparently, even Hasselblad can't justify the economics of a full frame square sensor digital back for the many people who own V-system 'Blads.....so I really doubt that Pentax could make the economics work for a 67D. Nice to dream of one however.

03-26-2011, 10:36 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahijock Quote
Hi pz1fan, I hope this won't appear as if I am being rude but it would help if you stated where the situation is getting better. If for instance this is the U.S. then it might not apply to me in the U.K.

Same goes for general product availability etc. Different markets can reflect quite different situations in terms of availability and price.

Sorry if this appears to be an unnecessarily and slightly bad tempered response. It isn't meant that way.

Actually the solution to this lies in the details that are available at the side. If users put in country in which they are located then problem solved.

If you were to ask about say film sources or other materials for instance then I know that telling you that a U.K. shop has some bargains or the local branch of Wilkinson's ( a U.K. general stores sort of place) isn't going to be relevant.

I hope you are right about prices. We in the U.K. seem to have to spend a lot more for the same stuff. There is even a thread on this in APUG with reference to Ilford products but that another story.

asahijock
No rudeness felt at all. You're right, in the U.S. I've been watching online. keh for instance has 9 lenses today. They had 0 in December and 0 a few other times. It's not easy to get them, but it does seem "easier". Most hoarders weren't waiting to get a 645D. They wanted to quickly profit. Hopefully, that's been realized. People who can afford a 10k body can probably grab the new lenses for 5k and 1k.

I don't have a MF now, but would like a 67 film for the larger image size. I don't care for the crop of my APS-C digital. Wouldn't be looking at MF if I believed the marketing benefits of crop. Crop is crop. The 67D is probably far enough off that people won't hoard the 67 lenses. Better they are available to people using them with film instead of speculators. 67D may never happen.

Off-topic, but if 645D were under $2000, I'd think twice about not going digital. It's great 645D is available, but 10k for a body is out of my reach.
03-26-2011, 10:51 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
No rudeness felt at all. You're right, in the U.S. I've been watching online. keh for instance has 9 lenses today. They had 0 in December and 0 a few other times. It's not easy to get them, but it does seem "easier". Most hoarders weren't waiting to get a 645D. They wanted to quickly profit. Hopefully, that's been realized. People who can afford a 10k body can probably grab the new lenses for 5k and 1k.

I don't have a MF now, but would like a 67 film for the larger image size. I don't care for the crop of my APS-C digital. Wouldn't be looking at MF if I believed the marketing benefits of crop. Crop is crop. The 67D is probably far enough off that people won't hoard the 67 lenses. Better they are available to people using them with film instead of speculators. 67D may never happen.

Off-topic, but if 645D were under $2000, I'd think twice about not going digital. It's great 645D is available, but 10k for a body is out of my reach.
Yeah, that's why I shoot the 6x7 and will continue to do so. The used market 645D's are still many years away but I do have the 6x7 to 645 adapter...
03-26-2011, 04:49 PM   #7
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Thanks for your understanding of my position, pz1fan. I shoud declare my position. I deeply regret the launch of the D version of the P645 in that there didn't seem to be a commensurate increase in availability of lenses to prevent a swing in the supply and demand situation and what may be the arrival of speculators driving prices upwards

I have no problem with those who want to use D equipment and a computer in a lightroom but I am a dedicated film and darkroom user and will remain so and regret being adversely affected by the advent of the D version in terms of prices.

asahijock
03-26-2011, 06:47 PM   #8
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Part of the reason of the KEH lens availability is they raised price, typically 2x or 3x what they did months ago.

There is a table of B&H's new P645 lens prices 10 years ago, as well as the KEH prices as it used to be, in Lloyd's 645D review. Compare to what it is there now.

03-27-2011, 12:23 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by leping Quote
Part of the reason of the KEH lens availability is they raised price, typically 2x or 3x what they did months ago.

There is a table of B&H's new P645 lens prices 10 years ago, as well as the KEH prices as it used to be, in Lloyd's 645D review. Compare to what it is there now.
Good point. Wasn't aware of that.

I haven't figured out why Pentax used lenses (even 35mm ones) go for about the same as new ones. It has to be the demand side.

For example(no used in production MF Pentax lenses to compare):

(Rough estimate of current prices.)

Pentax
FA 31mm new price: ~965
FA 31mm (AIV) used price: 850-900 (and snapped up in hours)
F 300/4.5: (more than a new DA 300 f4)
DA 300mm new : ~1199
DA 300mm used : ~999

Mamiya 7
43mm new price: ~2500
43mm used price (EX condition) : ~1300

Last edited by pz1fan; 03-27-2011 at 12:38 PM. Reason: correction
03-27-2011, 03:21 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
Is a similar effect going to happen if they announce a 67D camera?
Pentax 67D is not a good idea.
Hoya says that they have no plans about it. And it is a very clever position.

What is 67 film camera body?
It is a "container" for 56x70 mm film frame. And "receiver" for 67 lenses without auto-focus.

645D is a receiver for non-auto-focus 67 lenses too - through adapter 67/645.
And 645D is an universal container of 44x33 mm sensor for ALL the lenses, not only for Pentax 645 or 67, but for different other (through adapters).

If you really need 5:4 format instead 4:3 format in 645D - you can cut a little. Imagine that you have 33x41.25 mm sensor with 5440x6800 = 37 Mp in 645D for your 67 lenses. Right now.

It would be better to make next step - "645D II" with Kodak KAF 50100 in it.
50 Mp, sensor size 49.1x36.8 mm, crop-factor is only 1.14 from 56x41.5 mm "full-frame of 645 format".

And everybody knows, that new lenses DFA 55/2.8 and DFA 25/4.0 - both are "full-frame", because they cover 56x41.5 mm frame. It means that may be in future - "645D III" will have a sensor size 56x41.5 mm nearly.

What is the difference between such "645D III" and your "67D" ???
It`s much more better for Hoya to produce "auto-focus 645 digital camera + universal digital back for ALL the lenses" - in ONE body, not in two different bodies.

There is no need of special digital 67 body for using 67 lenses now. There is only one reason for existing of such camera - a habitual work-flow with 67 bodies and accessories. But this reason is not enough for producing such cameras.
03-28-2011, 07:14 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by managger Quote
Pentax 67D is not a good idea.
Hoya says that they have no plans about it. And it is a very clever position.

What is 67 film camera body?
It is a "container" for 56x70 mm film frame. And "receiver" for 67 lenses without auto-focus.

645D is a receiver for non-auto-focus 67 lenses too - through adapter 67/645.
And 645D is an universal container of 44x33 mm sensor for ALL the lenses, not only for Pentax 645 or 67, but for different other (through adapters).

If you really need 5:4 format instead 4:3 format in 645D - you can cut a little. Imagine that you have 33x41.25 mm sensor with 5440x6800 = 37 Mp in 645D for your 67 lenses. Right now.

It would be better to make next step - "645D II" with Kodak KAF 50100 in it.
50 Mp, sensor size 49.1x36.8 mm, crop-factor is only 1.14 from 56x41.5 mm "full-frame of 645 format".

And everybody knows, that new lenses DFA 55/2.8 and DFA 25/4.0 - both are "full-frame", because they cover 56x41.5 mm frame. It means that may be in future - "645D III" will have a sensor size 56x41.5 mm nearly.

What is the difference between such "645D III" and your "67D" ???
It`s much more better for Hoya to produce "auto-focus 645 digital camera + universal digital back for ALL the lenses" - in ONE body, not in two different bodies.

There is no need of special digital 67 body for using 67 lenses now. There is only one reason for existing of such camera - a habitual work-flow with 67 bodies and accessories. But this reason is not enough for producing such cameras.
Great thoughts. Could they put a 56x72mm digital sensor in a 645D body eventually too?

Last edited by pz1fan; 03-28-2011 at 07:41 AM.
03-28-2011, 07:29 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by bensonga Quote
Apparently, even Hasselblad can't justify the economics of a full frame square sensor digital back for the many people who own V-system 'Blads.....
Not now. We underestimate how tech can improve. In the future, a 56x56mm sensor could be affordable. More likely the expense of making new lenses will limit progress into larger digital MF sizes.

Last edited by pz1fan; 03-28-2011 at 07:44 AM.
03-28-2011, 08:38 AM   #13
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Well I still have some lenses for 645D on sale in the marketplace.
03-28-2011, 10:46 AM   #14
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Most of the P645 lenses, and even some P67 ones (45mm/f4 is an example), are struggling with edges and corners of the 33x44mm 40MP 645D sensor. It is the optimal balance point of DOF (around 1/2 stop advantage over "full frame 645"), noise (already adequate -- I would prefer to shoot at ISO 800 in most case -- just love the grainy looking), lens coverage / size /weight / cost / availability, processing speed, etc.

As far as the KEH price goes. 2 months ago Lloyd bought an EX grade 75mm/2.8 A for $159. Today it is $379. I ordered a 2x extender EX for $139 one month ago, and now it is $299. However, the current EX+ 120mm/f4 A macro at $465 is a good buy, and I wonder why it could have stayed for so long.
03-28-2011, 01:15 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by leping Quote
Most of the P645 lenses, and even some P67 ones (45mm/f4 is an example), are struggling with edges and corners of the 33x44mm 40MP 645D sensor. It is the optimal balance point of DOF (around 1/2 stop advantage over "full frame 645"), noise (already adequate -- I would prefer to shoot at ISO 800 in most case -- just love the grainy looking), lens coverage / size /weight / cost / availability, processing speed, etc.

As far as the KEH price goes. 2 months ago Lloyd bought an EX grade 75mm/2.8 A for $159. Today it is $379. I ordered a 2x extender EX for $139 one month ago, and now it is $299. However, the current EX+ 120mm/f4 A macro at $465 is a good buy, and I wonder why it could have stayed for so long.
Good points. I bought almost all my lenses the same day the 645D was announced. I think I bought 5 or 6 lenses in one day from KEH and ebay. None were more than $175. I just snagged a 120mm Macro "A" in almost mint condition on the bay for $309. It is a beauty, and first trials are amazing in sharpness. I was not even using a tripod; I used a monopod and shutter speed around 125 or 250; even so, WOW!. I now have 4 FA and 6 A lenses from 35mm to 200mm, and all but the 120 macro were bought long before the feeding frenzy. Glad I got them when I did!
Best
Dave
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