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12-12-2011, 09:32 AM   #46
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Just a friendly note, lets argue the message, not attack the messenger, no matter how frustrating things may be.

12-12-2011, 10:24 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by chicagonature Quote
Still, I ask, who is going to buy or upgrade into the 645D? There are four groups, from what I can figure:
1) 35mm photographers who want more pixels or better image quality
2) Existing medium format film users
3) Those who are using medium format digital already
4) Large format film shooters who are using medium format backs or still shooting film

For each user above:
1) 35mm folks would have a choice between a more a 36MP camera and the 645D, especially if the 35mm competitor is a lot cheap.
2) Medium format film users who want enough resolution to jump in probably want a reasonable price, like landscape shooter who are making a fraction of the income as commercial shooter. A 36MP 35mm camera will probably achieve comparable quality as the medium format film and will be happy if the price is right. Plus, if you crop a 36MP camera to the .75 aspect ratio as the 645D, you end up with 32MP, not a huge loss. In fact, the D3 and D3x have the ability allow you to shoot in the 4x5 aspect ratio if you'd like.
3) Which existing digital medium format owners from the following companies will ever switch to Pentax?: Hasselblad (no way), Leica (no way), Phase users (no way), Mamiya (possibly). Money is not a factor to any of those folks and they are very loyal to their brands, most of which offer many, many lenses that are made specifically for digital and who already have extensive track records in digital.
4) Large format film shooters who've already switched to medium cameras or backs are unlikely to switch. Too much invested already. If they haven't switched yet, then the 645D might be a decent choice. But, with no tilt/shift ability, I wonder.
1) Well this is a hard groope to attracked I guess. On the other hand if they don't own any MF gear they might just end up with Pentax because of the price. If they own professional lenses in Canikon then they want to wait for that next generation FF dslr I think. Luckey Pentax that Canon anounced 18 mp 1Dx.
2) Well if they have allready Pentax 645 lenses then an upgrade to 645D body is the cheapest way. Starting all over isn't cheap. You calculation isn't the best I guess. You make a frame and use all those pixels with a lens that is appropiate for the image to take. It's not like snapshooting I guess in professional land. The other way to calculate does never give you 32 mp since a sensor has x-y directions.
3) I think like Olympus and Kodak not all off those brands will be around for the coming 5 years.
4) Tilt/shift is important I think. Switching brands also depends on the value of gear in the second hand market. Having to offer something that the former brand didn't is the most important part of this descision I guess.
12-12-2011, 11:04 AM   #48
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i'm not a MF shooter, never been; just a 35mm film and APS-C shooter.

I've read all those post because the title catched me

when i read this thread i've realize they were 2 groups of people : real MF shooters and the others. And i consider that Chicagonature belongs to the second group.

Chicagonature, you seem to consider the 645 system like another 35mm system. Obvioulsy it's not.
You can't compare 645 and 35mm only on paper spec ! Because beyond number, that may now appear as close, in use there is such a huge difference. You discuss about the difference like i discuss about the difference between a D5100 and a K-r.

You are asking "should i buy the 645D ?" the answer i give you when i read your posts is "nop", because in fact you don't seem to want it or even need it.

What you are looking after through the 645D is a kind of 1DX with a 60Mpx or more, that will give you a 645 rendering-like, or something alike.


the question you should ask yourself is :
- Are you happy with your set up ? If yes, why change ?

- why do you need something newer ? will the "newer" will give you real improvement or is it just because of "numbers and paper spec" ?

- Will it meet your needs ?


You are not looking at the right things, and asking yourself the good question to me.

Just my 2 cents...
12-12-2011, 11:17 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
i'm not a MF shooter, never been; just a 35mm film and APS-C shooter.

I've read all those post because the title catched me

when i read this thread i've realize they were 2 groups of people : real MF shooters and the others. And i consider that Chicagonature belongs to the second group.

Chicagonature, you seem to consider the 645 system like another 35mm system. Obvioulsy it's not.
You can't compare 645 and 35mm only on paper spec ! Because beyond number, that may now appear as close, in use there is such a huge difference. You discuss about the difference like i discuss about the difference between a D5100 and a K-r.

You are asking "should i buy the 645D ?" the answer i give you when i read your posts is "nop", because in fact you don't seem to want it or even need it.

What you are looking after through the 645D is a kind of 1DX with a 60Mpx or more, that will give you a 645 rendering-like, or something alike.


the question you should ask yourself is :
- Are you happy with your set up ? If yes, why change ?

- why do you need something newer ? will the "newer" will give you real improvement or is it just because of "numbers and paper spec" ?

- Will it meet your needs ?


You are not looking at the right things, and asking yourself the good question to me.

Just my 2 cents...

All good points

I never shoot my 645 the same way I shoot with 35 (or apsc). comparative using my 645 is a slower more thoughtful process (cost of film doesn't help)

Mostly i use it for static subjects - landscape architecture.... (occasionally i'll shoot street with it but it's not the best for that) and some portrait work

If I had a 645D style of shooting with it wouldn't change much, i don't see it as a PJ type tool, or designed for speed.

Chicagonature is boxing all other togs into his perceived needs. Not the way the world works. There are still lots of guys shooting Large format too. Hell one guy even had a Large format sensor Fabricated for Proofing at the cost of a large pre crash house (actually he got 2 made)
FOR PROOFING not the actual final image !!!! to replace his 8x10 polaroid back

Mitchell Feinberg’s 8×10 Digital Capture Back

QuoteQuote:
The Maxback, as it has been named (the Brontoback, Velocicaptor and Back Scratch Fever were rejected), is the largest non-scanning color digital back in the world, with a capture area of over 810 inches. The largest commercially available color digital camera backs are about 4.5 x 6cm in size. It attaches without modification to a Sinar, and delivers high quality interim captures in under 30 seconds.

there's room for lots of different styles of shooting and equipment so i doubt MF will disappear. and as the biggest selling MF camera i doubt the 645D will go anywhere fast

12-12-2011, 12:04 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by phonoline Quote
I come from Nikon. The D700 is my workhorse. I bought the 645D because of the 40MP and the fact that I proudly own many many great 67 lenses. There were times, I confess, that I partly regretted the purchase of the 645D as it never is fast enough - I was/still am very much used to the high speed of my D700 and its better handling in the studio and on weddings. BUT: also coming from the 67II which I still regularly use for b&w shooting, I have started to give speed a break on the 645D - the image quality of it is outstanding and more important to me. Its lenses are mostly phantastic, I can live with 1/125s in the studio.
That Pentax 6X7 was/is a great camera. 67 lenses are outstanding - as are those for the 645. I believe Leica markets Pentax lens adapters for their S2.

By the way, I have just purchased an adapter to permit me to use Carl Zeiss Jena lenses in the studio. I really love the look a good Sonnar can impart to portraits.
12-12-2011, 12:16 PM   #51
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A MF film shooter who has decided that I do not need a digital MF camera. But in reading other forums there seems to be many MF digital shooters who have switched brands in the search for the best tools for their needs, hence not sure if brand loyality means no one shooting digital MF other than Pentax right now will ever come over to it now. Many of the pro photographers of 5 years from now have yet to come to their stage of career to have even tried MF hence they are open to whatever system works best for them or they can afford.

Some one seems to be buying the 645D. I would guess that a Pentax D3X clone would be less sucessful for Pentax than the 645D.

And I agree with Eddie in that I shoot all formats in a different style from each other, except perhaps when I an using on format to compensate for lack of gear in another one. I do not think Pentax should abandon the 645D just because it is not the best at doing some thing it was not created for. For my own stlye I would take it over the large Nikons, but then I have only used the D3. But it is also a camera I would not buy myself.
12-12-2011, 12:32 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
But it is also a camera I would not buy myself.
In my current situation neither would I. However if that big lotto win comes through then I'd run several systems, 645, leica, and a ff/apsc combo (nikon at the moment but I'd stick with Pentax if they dropped a FF). all of them have their uses that i now duplicate with a mix of film and digital
12-12-2011, 01:06 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by jackinkc Quote
That Pentax 6X7 was/is a great camera. 67 lenses are outstanding - as are those for the 645. I believe Leica markets Pentax lens adapters for their S2.

By the way, I have just purchased an adapter to permit me to use Carl Zeiss Jena lenses in the studio. I really love the look a good Sonnar can impart to portraits.
An adapter for the 67 body or for the 645D? Which bayonet? Sounds interesting.

12-12-2011, 01:07 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by phonoline Quote
An adapter for the 67 body or for the 645D? Which bayonet? Sounds interesting.
Leica Blog Leica S2-Adapters For Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax Lenses
12-12-2011, 01:56 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by phonoline Quote
An adapter for the 67 body or for the 645D? Which bayonet? Sounds interesting.
Excuse me for not being more clear. I bought an adapter for using Pentacon 6 lenses on my 645D I bought it on eBay. The dealer is well rated and he is from Ukraine. A couple of weeks ago, I tried to buy a P6-645 adapter from another Ukrainian dealer but PayPal would not send money to that company. Apparently PayPal had received enough complaints that the shut H-O-H-O-L off.

I have a family photographer friend who LOVES the Zeiss glass with her 645N portraits. I used them in the studio, with my 645N and in the field with my Canon 5D. That was years ago and I no longer have the 180 Sonnar that I owned back then.

Pease note that I am in no way saying that Zeiss Jena glass is "better" than Pentax glass for that is not the case. However the Jena lenses do have pleasing qualities.
12-13-2011, 02:01 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
You carry on living in cloud cuckoo land. The chances of the D800 being 36mp are zero to minus in my view. I made the jump from 35mm to MF and now have the 645n for film MF. The difference is not just in number of pixels as we have stated each time. Will there one day be a 36 mp 35mm sensor? Probably. But not for a few years. Canon are rumoured to be looking at a 32mp sensor. I don't think that Nikon will try and match this let alone beat it, going by their past marketing.

Digital I have the Pentax 645d canon 5d mk 1 and II and also the 7D. I have used the 5dII to go wider with a Sigma 12-24 and Canon 14 and 16-35L lenses. But 645D comes with me every trip and is also my first choice. I shoot predominantly landscape. I have lots of L glass inc 14, 16-35II 70-200 and 28-300. I'm still happier with the shots from my 645D. If I want to go wider I can and have stitched shots. The detail is astounding especially when I use the sharpest lenses the 75 and 120 macro.
It's a theoretical discussion and I urge you to use respect when speaking to me.
12-13-2011, 02:03 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Yamanobori Quote
Just a friendly note, lets argue the message, not attack the messenger, no matter how frustrating things may be.
Thank you, Yamanobori!
12-14-2011, 02:32 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by chicagonature Quote
It's a theoretical discussion and I urge you to use respect when speaking to me.
I wasn't intending to be disrespectful, I apologise if that came over wrong.

The OP wasn't a theoretical discussion. It was a genuine question based on the OP's concern whether the 645D will last. Your discussion is based on a very unlikely scenario of Nikon throwing out their previous marketing plan and increasing the resolution by 3 times of the D700 on the D800. I think it would be very unlikely indeed for Nikon to do that. Choosing to believe the most fanciful of online rumours with which to shoot down the 645D is disingenuous. You also ignore the fact that there are many differences between Medium Format and 35mm. It's not just about resolution numbers, a fact which your discussion ignores even when reminded.
12-14-2011, 06:38 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
You also ignore the fact that there are many differences between Medium Format and 35mm. It's not just about resolution numbers, a fact which your discussion ignores even when reminded.
The fact is this should not be ignored, and will never be changed as physics law still will apply.
Despite this, i think the Canikon marketing soldiers will undoubtedly say or mean the contrary.
12-14-2011, 07:53 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
The fact is this should not be ignored, and will never be changed as physics law still will apply.
Despite this, i think the Canikon marketing soldiers will undoubtedly say or mean the contrary.
Indeed. In the UK there's a saying. There's lies, damned lies and there's statistics. Meaning you can use numbers to sugar coat just about anything. Politicians do it all the rime as do people in charge of marketing.
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