printing and prossesing raw dng files

bull drinkwater · 12-25-2011, 06:46 AM

i keep reading that you can't print or prosess in raw.i know that when you save a raw file that it saves in a number of other formats. but if you prosess and then print the raw file, don't you get around that? i have 3 editors that handle raw dng files.instead of saving them i went straight to print.i have the 8x10s in front of me.are most people working on and saving the same image over and over?

Yamanobori · 12-25-2011, 08:57 AM

No, you can never see the RAW file. The file that is opened is not the RAW data--it has been converted. You would not even want to see the RAW file--half the pixels would just be green, the other half would be divided into blue and red, all laid out in the Bayer pattern of your sensor.

I use ACR. When you open a RAW it remembers the opening parameters. Only when I have a the final process on the image do I save it as another file.

bull drinkwater · 12-25-2011, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Yamanobori

No, you can never see the RAW file. The file that is opened is not the RAW data--it has been converted. You would not even want to see the RAW file--half the pixels would just be green, the other half would be divided into blue and red, all laid out in the Bayer pattern of your sensor.

I use ACR. When you open a RAW it remembers the opening parameters. Only when I have a the final process on the image do I save it as another file.

i stand corrected,so what format am i seeing it in? my pentax editor shows dng.is that the different format? i do favor converting to tiff. i only use jpg because the sites i visit won't take tiff.
thanks for setting me straight.

Yamanobori · 12-25-2011, 09:33 AM

Until you save the file, the extension of the original file is displayed. You should be opening and saving your RAW files as 16-bit. That will preserve the information in the RAW file. Convert to 8-bit after it is processed and you need it for a different application like display on the web or to be printed.

**jatrax** · 12-25-2011, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by bull drinkwater

so what format am i seeing it in

Not sure about all programs but some "viewers" are just showing you the jpeg preview that is embedded in the RAW. Depending on your program you may be looking at the jpeg or the program may convert the RAW "on the fly" to something viewable.

When I first started with RAW I was told to process the RAW to suit, save it out as either tiff or jpeg and delete the RAW. I read this in several articles but it seemed to contradict what common sense and the Lightroom manual state. So now everything stays as RAW, I process the files to suit and that's it. Just like you would a film negative. When I need that image for something it gets exported in the format I need. For stock sites I make a downsized jpeg, for sending to a print lab either a full size jpeg or tiff. For printing in house I just use the Lightroom module which prints from the RAW. I assume it converts the RAW on the fly to something that will print but that format is not saved.

The thing I love about RAW is that you can go back as many times as you want and start over. Some files I processed very early came out really bad because I had no idea what I was doing. I can go back now with my expanded skill set and do them over with no loss. Or by creating virtual copies you can process a RAW as many different ways as you want because you never change the 'negative'.

bull drinkwater · 12-25-2011, 10:22 AM

ok guys i am missing something,i plug the card from the camera into my computer and drag the files to a new folder.when i open the folder with pentax utility 4 i have a stripf photos along the botton in jpj and dng, i work off of those.is dng a converted file like jpg? if soo then i get it.

**dms** · 12-25-2011, 11:28 AM

You are converting the file when you open it to resize and print (e.g., opening .dng file from Adobe camera raw into photoshop) and then can save it as a converted file (photshop, tiff, pfeg, etc.); but if you don't it is the digital equivalent to having a negative (the raw file) and the print. Unless I did additional pp (beyond resizing) I don't save the converted file.

**dms** · 12-25-2011, 11:37 AM

RE: My analogy about the negative and the dng file--of course the analogy is not perfect as you can do much of the pp on the dng file and still keep it as a dng fle. White balance, exposure, etc. but the original data is never altered, so in effect you have the original+multiple/changeable negatives (if you want you can save each changed dng file--best of all worlds--as you have in effect multiple negatives.)

Yamanobori · 12-25-2011, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by bull drinkwater

[SIZE=4]so what format am i seeing it in?

You are most likely seeing a TIFF (or a Photoshop) redendering. The application needs to encode it somehow to display it.

**jatrax** · 12-25-2011, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by bull drinkwater

is dng a converted file like jpg?

No DNG is a RAW file. Every camera manufacturer has their own proprietary RAW format. Pentax's is called PEF. DNG is a 'standard' RAW format created by Adobe in order to attempt to get everyone to use the same RAW format. Pentax has elected to give you the option in their cameras of using the Adobe format (DNG) or the Pentax format (PEF) but both are RAW. There is some argument about whether PEF or DNG is better. I prefer DNG because edits in Lightroom as saved as part of the DNG file. If you use PEF then the edits are saved as a hidden 'sidecar' file which in my opinion complicates things. YMMV.

I do not use PCU 4 but if you are seeing both jpeg and DNG files in the film strip then possibly you have the camera set to RAW+ which means you are saving both a DNG and a jpeg file in camera. I just checked in PCU4 and I see only DNG files in a directory I just uploaded. But I don't use it much so something else might be happening.

vonBaloney · 12-25-2011, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by jatrax

There is some argument about whether PEF or DNG is better. I prefer DNG because edits in Lightroom as saved as part of the DNG file. If you use PEF then the edits are saved as a hidden 'sidecar' file which in my opinion complicates things. YMMV.

You can easily add "convert to DNG" as part of Lightroom import. I shoot in PEF, but convert to DNG and make a copy on import. So PEFs only exist on the card and are thrown away after import. PEFs are a bit smaller than DNGs in-camera (least they were on earlier models, haven't checked on K-5), so you can shoot slightly faster and fit more shots on a card.

bull drinkwater · 12-25-2011, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by jatrax

No DNG is a RAW file. Every camera manufacturer has their own proprietary RAW format. Pentax's is called PEF. DNG is a 'standard' RAW format created by Adobe in order to attempt to get everyone to use the same RAW format. Pentax has elected to give you the option in their cameras of using the Adobe format (DNG) or the Pentax format (PEF) but both are RAW. There is some argument about whether PEF or DNG is better. I prefer DNG because edits in Lightroom as saved as part of the DNG file. If you use PEF then the edits are saved as a hidden 'sidecar' file which in my opinion complicates things. YMMV.

I do not use PCU 4 but if you are seeing both jpeg and DNG files in the film strip then possibly you have the camera set to RAW+ which means you are saving both a DNG and a jpeg file in camera. I just checked in PCU4 and I see only DNG files in a directory I just uploaded. But I don't use it much so something else might be happening.

no, you're good,when i set the camera to raw only i only see dng.. files.i am good with PCU4 my pics and abilities don't warrent the hi-end editors.

**jatrax** · 12-25-2011, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

PEFs are a bit smaller than DNGs in-camera (least they were on earlier models

That was part of the argument I mentioned, it being important to some and not to others. I can't find the thread right now but if I remember correctly someone had posted that with the newest versions there was no significant size difference with PEF vs DNG. I have not checked this myself and as you note Lightroom will convert on import. I setup to use DNG to save some processing time on import as there is no conversion being done. Never checked the time that would cost, just figured there had to be some so I started with DNG, card space and shooting speed not being important to me.

That's why they give us options, so you can use what works best for you.

demp10 · 12-25-2011, 02:38 PM

You can never see a DNG file directly on a display (or at least in a way that resembles a photograph). The DNG being a RAW file has the bit values (usually 12, 14, or 16 bits per pixel) from the sensor in a mosaic pattern. The file can be compressed (lossless like a zip file) or not.

When you "view" a DNG file, depending on the viewer used or the mode the viewer is in (e.g. thumbnail preview vs. full view) one of two things happens:

If an embedded JPEG image is available, some viewer will display that for an immediate response. This image was generated by the camera and it is basically what you see on the camera monitor when previewing.

The other way (which is used for full image display and manipulation), the viewer generates an RGB representation of the raw data and then displays that. The RGB representation is, in essence, the RAW converter. During the conversion process, many parameters can be changed and applied that will substantially modify the image. All converters have defaults to generate an initial view and then let the user manipulate it. The parameters usually are saved in script-like mode and applied to the raw data on conversion. The raw data are kept in a "Read-Only" mode. That way you can keep adding processing steps, go back and adjust previous steps or remove them without rewriting the raw data.

So when you "view" a DNG file you are actually looking at the output of the RAW converter used by your viewer. You can save that output in whatever image format you like or you can keep it in DNG (or any other RAW format) and "replay" all the corrections/manipulations in the saved "scripts" every time you view/print your image.

12-25-2011, 06:46 AM	#1
bull drinkwater Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: pontiac mi. Posts: 392	printing and prossesing raw dng files i keep reading that you can't print or prosess in raw.i know that when you save a raw file that it saves in a number of other formats. but if you prosess and then print the raw file, don't you get around that? i have 3 editors that handle raw dng files.instead of saving them i went straight to print.i have the 8x10s in front of me.are most people working on and saving the same image over and over?

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12-25-2011, 08:57 AM	#2
Yamanobori Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 573	No, you can never see the RAW file. The file that is opened is not the RAW data--it has been converted. You would not even want to see the RAW file--half the pixels would just be green, the other half would be divided into blue and red, all laid out in the Bayer pattern of your sensor. I use ACR. When you open a RAW it remembers the opening parameters. Only when I have a the final process on the image do I save it as another file.

12-25-2011, 09:17 AM	#3
bull drinkwater Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: pontiac mi. Posts: 392 Original Poster	Originally posted by Yamanobori No, you can never see the RAW file. The file that is opened is not the RAW data--it has been converted. You would not even want to see the RAW file--half the pixels would just be green, the other half would be divided into blue and red, all laid out in the Bayer pattern of your sensor. I use ACR. When you open a RAW it remembers the opening parameters. Only when I have a the final process on the image do I save it as another file. i stand corrected,so what format am i seeing it in? my pentax editor shows dng.is that the different format? i do favor converting to tiff. i only use jpg because the sites i visit won't take tiff. thanks for setting me straight.

12-25-2011, 09:33 AM	#4
Yamanobori Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 573	Until you save the file, the extension of the original file is displayed. You should be opening and saving your RAW files as 16-bit. That will preserve the information in the RAW file. Convert to 8-bit after it is processed and you need it for a different application like display on the web or to be printed.

12-25-2011, 09:37 AM	#5
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by bull drinkwater so what format am i seeing it in Not sure about all programs but some "viewers" are just showing you the jpeg preview that is embedded in the RAW. Depending on your program you may be looking at the jpeg or the program may convert the RAW "on the fly" to something viewable. When I first started with RAW I was told to process the RAW to suit, save it out as either tiff or jpeg and delete the RAW. I read this in several articles but it seemed to contradict what common sense and the Lightroom manual state. So now everything stays as RAW, I process the files to suit and that's it. Just like you would a film negative. When I need that image for something it gets exported in the format I need. For stock sites I make a downsized jpeg, for sending to a print lab either a full size jpeg or tiff. For printing in house I just use the Lightroom module which prints from the RAW. I assume it converts the RAW on the fly to something that will print but that format is not saved. The thing I love about RAW is that you can go back as many times as you want and start over. Some files I processed very early came out really bad because I had no idea what I was doing. I can go back now with my expanded skill set and do them over with no loss. Or by creating virtual copies you can process a RAW as many different ways as you want because you never change the 'negative'.

12-25-2011, 10:22 AM	#6
bull drinkwater Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: pontiac mi. Posts: 392 Original Poster	ok guys i am missing something,i plug the card from the camera into my computer and drag the files to a new folder.when i open the folder with pentax utility 4 i have a stripf photos along the botton in jpj and dng, i work off of those.is dng a converted file like jpg? if soo then i get it.

12-25-2011, 11:28 AM	#7
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	You are converting the file when you open it to resize and print (e.g., opening .dng file from Adobe camera raw into photoshop) and then can save it as a converted file (photshop, tiff, pfeg, etc.); but if you don't it is the digital equivalent to having a negative (the raw file) and the print. Unless I did additional pp (beyond resizing) I don't save the converted file.

12-25-2011, 11:37 AM	#8
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	RE: My analogy about the negative and the dng file--of course the analogy is not perfect as you can do much of the pp on the dng file and still keep it as a dng fle. White balance, exposure, etc. but the original data is never altered, so in effect you have the original+multiple/changeable negatives (if you want you can save each changed dng file--best of all worlds--as you have in effect multiple negatives.)

12-25-2011, 11:44 AM	#9
Yamanobori Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 573	Originally posted by bull drinkwater [SIZE=4]so what format am i seeing it in? You are most likely seeing a TIFF (or a Photoshop) redendering. The application needs to encode it somehow to display it.

12-25-2011, 11:48 AM	#10
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by bull drinkwater is dng a converted file like jpg? No DNG is a RAW file. Every camera manufacturer has their own proprietary RAW format. Pentax's is called PEF. DNG is a 'standard' RAW format created by Adobe in order to attempt to get everyone to use the same RAW format. Pentax has elected to give you the option in their cameras of using the Adobe format (DNG) or the Pentax format (PEF) but both are RAW. There is some argument about whether PEF or DNG is better. I prefer DNG because edits in Lightroom as saved as part of the DNG file. If you use PEF then the edits are saved as a hidden 'sidecar' file which in my opinion complicates things. YMMV. I do not use PCU 4 but if you are seeing both jpeg and DNG files in the film strip then possibly you have the camera set to RAW+ which means you are saving both a DNG and a jpeg file in camera. I just checked in PCU4 and I see only DNG files in a directory I just uploaded. But I don't use it much so something else might be happening.

12-25-2011, 12:12 PM	#11
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by jatrax There is some argument about whether PEF or DNG is better. I prefer DNG because edits in Lightroom as saved as part of the DNG file. If you use PEF then the edits are saved as a hidden 'sidecar' file which in my opinion complicates things. YMMV. You can easily add "convert to DNG" as part of Lightroom import. I shoot in PEF, but convert to DNG and make a copy on import. So PEFs only exist on the card and are thrown away after import. PEFs are a bit smaller than DNGs in-camera (least they were on earlier models, haven't checked on K-5), so you can shoot slightly faster and fit more shots on a card.

12-25-2011, 01:56 PM	#12
bull drinkwater Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: pontiac mi. Posts: 392 Original Poster	Originally posted by jatrax No DNG is a RAW file. Every camera manufacturer has their own proprietary RAW format. Pentax's is called PEF. DNG is a 'standard' RAW format created by Adobe in order to attempt to get everyone to use the same RAW format. Pentax has elected to give you the option in their cameras of using the Adobe format (DNG) or the Pentax format (PEF) but both are RAW. There is some argument about whether PEF or DNG is better. I prefer DNG because edits in Lightroom as saved as part of the DNG file. If you use PEF then the edits are saved as a hidden 'sidecar' file which in my opinion complicates things. YMMV. I do not use PCU 4 but if you are seeing both jpeg and DNG files in the film strip then possibly you have the camera set to RAW+ which means you are saving both a DNG and a jpeg file in camera. I just checked in PCU4 and I see only DNG files in a directory I just uploaded. But I don't use it much so something else might be happening. no, you're good,when i set the camera to raw only i only see dng.. files.i am good with PCU4 my pics and abilities don't warrent the hi-end editors.

12-25-2011, 02:07 PM	#13
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by vonBaloney PEFs are a bit smaller than DNGs in-camera (least they were on earlier models That was part of the argument I mentioned, it being important to some and not to others. I can't find the thread right now but if I remember correctly someone had posted that with the newest versions there was no significant size difference with PEF vs DNG. I have not checked this myself and as you note Lightroom will convert on import. I setup to use DNG to save some processing time on import as there is no conversion being done. Never checked the time that would cost, just figured there had to be some so I started with DNG, card space and shooting speed not being important to me. That's why they give us options, so you can use what works best for you.

12-25-2011, 02:38 PM	#14
demp10 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Atlanta Photos: Albums Posts: 602	You can never see a DNG file directly on a display (or at least in a way that resembles a photograph). The DNG being a RAW file has the bit values (usually 12, 14, or 16 bits per pixel) from the sensor in a mosaic pattern. The file can be compressed (lossless like a zip file) or not. When you "view" a DNG file, depending on the viewer used or the mode the viewer is in (e.g. thumbnail preview vs. full view) one of two things happens: If an embedded JPEG image is available, some viewer will display that for an immediate response. This image was generated by the camera and it is basically what you see on the camera monitor when previewing. The other way (which is used for full image display and manipulation), the viewer generates an RGB representation of the raw data and then displays that. The RGB representation is, in essence, the RAW converter. During the conversion process, many parameters can be changed and applied that will substantially modify the image. All converters have defaults to generate an initial view and then let the user manipulate it. The parameters usually are saved in script-like mode and applied to the raw data on conversion. The raw data are kept in a "Read-Only" mode. That way you can keep adding processing steps, go back and adjust previous steps or remove them without rewriting the raw data. So when you "view" a DNG file you are actually looking at the output of the RAW converter used by your viewer. You can save that output in whatever image format you like or you can keep it in DNG (or any other RAW format) and "replay" all the corrections/manipulations in the saved "scripts" every time you view/print your image.