Lines On 645N Negatives

Paul MaudDib · 02-09-2012, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Please explain. I have been using SS reels for years and while I don't fill to the top (I pour by volume based on the nominal capacity of the tank), I can't say I have ever heard that there was any particular hazard with SS vs. plastic reels and over-filling.

Steve

This is speculation, but he might be referring to the need for a small void to help mix the liquid. The air pocket acts like a stirring rod and helps agitate the chemistry. No idea why that would apply more to metal than plastic though.

stevebrot · 02-09-2012, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Paul MaudDib

No idea why that would apply more to metal than plastic though.

Perhaps when using the swirl stick for agitation with a plastic tank/reel rather than inversion?

Steve

Clicker · 02-09-2012, 10:22 PM

I don't think its shutter travel because looking at the second image, her head is slightly misaligned. Possibly film advance?

Wait a minute, what type of reels are you using?

rpsez · 02-10-2012, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by Clicker

I don't think its shutter travel because looking at the second image, her head is slightly misaligned. Possibly film advance?

Wait a minute, what type of reels are you using?

Slightly misaligned? I don't understand what you mean.

I'm confused. How would a film advance issue cause a line? Frame overlap sure - but a line?

... and I'm using plastic reels - the kind that snap together for processing either 135 or 120.

R

asahijock · 02-14-2012, 01:22 PM

I don't believe this is a processing issue. You have a very clear line on the neg where the exposure has been greater and the developer has merely developed the more exposed side more as it should in the same way that two negs would be different if one was exposed at say 1/250th and another identical shot was exposed at 1/125th with identical apertures.

It all points to an uneven exposure of the neg so a curtain changing speed halfway across or temporarily sticking would do this.

As far as over filling the tank is concerned this is possible but the effect is to prevent the developer from circulating around the film and giving an even but slightly underdeveloped look. It is what happens if you fill a bottle to almost the top with water and add a colourant dye. Try inversion and see how much the dye moves then do the same with a bigger space in the top of the bottle and watch how much more the dye moves

asahijock

jonny_boy27 · 02-21-2012, 12:15 PM

Just to chip in here, I've also been having this problem with my 645N - thought it might have been a light leak with one of the inserts but also got the perfectly straight lines. I'm glad I'm not the only one!

rpsez · 02-21-2012, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by jonny_boy27

Just to chip in here, I've also been having this problem with my 645N - thought it might have been a light leak with one of the inserts but also got the perfectly straight lines. I'm glad I'm not the only one!

How often does it happen? Every roll? Every tenth? Just curious...

(This 'line-on-the-neg' issue has only happened to me a couple of times in 40 or so rolls.)

R

jonny_boy27 · 02-21-2012, 01:04 PM

Not sure how many rolls, but it's not that often. It happened on the very first roll I put through it, and I've got maybe ten frames affected out of 20 rolls or so - sometimes two frames on a roll but usually just the one. It's just annoying since it always seems to happen to the best shots - there's an otherwise breathtaking portrait of a good friend of mine which has a horrible line right through it!

jonny_boy27 · 02-21-2012, 01:08 PM

Also, to add more info: I've seen this on commercially-developed C41 (fuji minilab); E6 chromes I've put through the Jobo and also inversion-tank developed b&w so I'm pretty sure it's not the processing.

Yamanobori · 02-21-2012, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Please explain. I have been using SS reels for years and while I don't fill to the top (I pour by volume based on the nominal capacity of the tank), I can't say I have ever heard that there was any particular hazard with SS vs. plastic reels and over-filling.

Steve

Sorry, I have not been back to this thread. This is with SS reels and tanks.

If there is no air in the tank, the developer cannot circulate. The edges of the reels will cause micro currents causing the edge of the film to develop a different rate as the developer at the center is not really having any agitation. The results is unmistakable--in a print or contact you will see lighter sides to the film image compared to the center.

westmill · 02-21-2012, 01:34 PM

That line is just too sharp for it to be lack of agitation or low chemical volume. I would go with Srevebrot here, It can only be the shutter.
You could just try whacking off a load of shots at high speed to loosen it up. Its prob due to infrequent use.
A simple service would cure it for sure though.

rpsez · 02-21-2012, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by westmill

That line is just too sharp for it to be lack of agitation or low chemical volume. I would go with Srevebrot here, It can only be the shutter.
You could just try whacking off a load of shots at high speed to loosen it up. Its prob due to infrequent use.
A simple service would cure it for sure though.

Agreed. Shutter.

After the studio class that I'm currently using it for is over, it'll be on its way to Eric for a proper CLA.

R

eaaronross · 03-28-2018, 08:54 AM

Hello,
Did you ever find a solution? I am experiencing the exact same problem. Although I recently changed the batteries and the new roll i've shot doesn't have this issue on it at all. Not sure if the batteries were related or coincidental.

Pentax 645 Producing Dark Area on Negatives | Pentax 645,645N,645N? and 645D | Flickr

lightproof · 05-09-2018, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by rpsez

I emailed Eric to make sure he handles the 645N. He does although he doesn't stock parts for the 645N and (if needed) they can take up to a month to get from Pentax.
...
Off to Eric this beast goes!

I have the same issue with my 645NII which I got used some time ago. The camera was in perfect condition when I got it and internal film counter was showing only 2 rolls of film shot in total prior to me (not sure if the counter can be reset). I have shot 18 rolls since then and I've only had 2, maybe 3 of those half-frames. Whether it is a lot or not, it's quite frustrating to have a tool you can't count on.

rpsez, have you managed to fix your camera? Have anyone else successfully fixed theirs? Any feedback would be appreciated.

stevebrot · 05-09-2018, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by lightproof

rpsez, have you managed to fix your camera?

Originally posted by eaaronross

Did you ever find a solution?

The last post before these two was six years ago.

Originally posted by rpsez

After the studio class that I'm currently using it for is over, it'll be on its way to Eric for a proper CLA.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ CLA is the magic word (clean, lube, adjust).

Professional tools are designed to be dependable and the key to having a tool you can count on is regular maintenance or at least a visit to the shop when problems arise. Shutter capping and similar curtain timing/travel* issues are a common indication of a need for maintenance. The number of shutter cycles is a red herring as is general condition. @rpsez has not been on this site since 2013, but if he gets the notification (the "@"), perhaps he will let us know how his repair went.

Steve

*In the OP's case it was probably oxidized lubricant (or similar) slowing the leading curtain near the end of its travel.

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02-09-2012, 08:18 AM	#16
Paul MaudDib Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 294	Originally posted by stevebrot Please explain. I have been using SS reels for years and while I don't fill to the top (I pour by volume based on the nominal capacity of the tank), I can't say I have ever heard that there was any particular hazard with SS vs. plastic reels and over-filling. Steve This is speculation, but he might be referring to the need for a small void to help mix the liquid. The air pocket acts like a stirring rod and helps agitate the chemistry. No idea why that would apply more to metal than plastic though.

02-09-2012, 09:29 PM	#17
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Paul MaudDib No idea why that would apply more to metal than plastic though. Perhaps when using the swirl stick for agitation with a plastic tank/reel rather than inversion? Steve

02-09-2012, 10:22 PM	#18
Clicker Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,241	I don't think its shutter travel because looking at the second image, her head is slightly misaligned. Possibly film advance? Wait a minute, what type of reels are you using?

02-10-2012, 06:59 AM	#19
rpsez Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Upstate NY Photos: Albums Posts: 25 Original Poster	Originally posted by Clicker I don't think its shutter travel because looking at the second image, her head is slightly misaligned. Possibly film advance? Wait a minute, what type of reels are you using? Slightly misaligned? I don't understand what you mean. I'm confused. How would a film advance issue cause a line? Frame overlap sure - but a line? ... and I'm using plastic reels - the kind that snap together for processing either 135 or 120. R

02-14-2012, 01:22 PM	#20
asahijock Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Northants, England Posts: 167	I don't believe this is a processing issue. You have a very clear line on the neg where the exposure has been greater and the developer has merely developed the more exposed side more as it should in the same way that two negs would be different if one was exposed at say 1/250th and another identical shot was exposed at 1/125th with identical apertures. It all points to an uneven exposure of the neg so a curtain changing speed halfway across or temporarily sticking would do this. As far as over filling the tank is concerned this is possible but the effect is to prevent the developer from circulating around the film and giving an even but slightly underdeveloped look. It is what happens if you fill a bottle to almost the top with water and add a colourant dye. Try inversion and see how much the dye moves then do the same with a bigger space in the top of the bottle and watch how much more the dye moves asahijock

02-21-2012, 12:15 PM	#21
jonny_boy27 New Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 10	Just to chip in here, I've also been having this problem with my 645N - thought it might have been a light leak with one of the inserts but also got the perfectly straight lines. I'm glad I'm not the only one!

02-21-2012, 01:00 PM	#22
rpsez Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Upstate NY Photos: Albums Posts: 25 Original Poster	Originally posted by jonny_boy27 Just to chip in here, I've also been having this problem with my 645N - thought it might have been a light leak with one of the inserts but also got the perfectly straight lines. I'm glad I'm not the only one! How often does it happen? Every roll? Every tenth? Just curious... (This 'line-on-the-neg' issue has only happened to me a couple of times in 40 or so rolls.) R

02-21-2012, 01:04 PM	#23
jonny_boy27 New Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 10	Not sure how many rolls, but it's not that often. It happened on the very first roll I put through it, and I've got maybe ten frames affected out of 20 rolls or so - sometimes two frames on a roll but usually just the one. It's just annoying since it always seems to happen to the best shots - there's an otherwise breathtaking portrait of a good friend of mine which has a horrible line right through it!

02-21-2012, 01:08 PM	#24
jonny_boy27 New Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 10	Also, to add more info: I've seen this on commercially-developed C41 (fuji minilab); E6 chromes I've put through the Jobo and also inversion-tank developed b&w so I'm pretty sure it's not the processing.

02-21-2012, 01:32 PM	#25
Yamanobori Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 573	Originally posted by stevebrot Please explain. I have been using SS reels for years and while I don't fill to the top (I pour by volume based on the nominal capacity of the tank), I can't say I have ever heard that there was any particular hazard with SS vs. plastic reels and over-filling. Steve Sorry, I have not been back to this thread. This is with SS reels and tanks. If there is no air in the tank, the developer cannot circulate. The edges of the reels will cause micro currents causing the edge of the film to develop a different rate as the developer at the center is not really having any agitation. The results is unmistakable--in a print or contact you will see lighter sides to the film image compared to the center.

02-21-2012, 01:34 PM	#26
westmill Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Stoke on Trent Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,146	That line is just too sharp for it to be lack of agitation or low chemical volume. I would go with Srevebrot here, It can only be the shutter. You could just try whacking off a load of shots at high speed to loosen it up. Its prob due to infrequent use. A simple service would cure it for sure though.

02-21-2012, 01:52 PM	#27
rpsez Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Upstate NY Photos: Albums Posts: 25 Original Poster	Originally posted by westmill That line is just too sharp for it to be lack of agitation or low chemical volume. I would go with Srevebrot here, It can only be the shutter. You could just try whacking off a load of shots at high speed to loosen it up. Its prob due to infrequent use. A simple service would cure it for sure though. Agreed. Shutter. After the studio class that I'm currently using it for is over, it'll be on its way to Eric for a proper CLA. R

03-28-2018, 08:54 AM	#28
eaaronross New Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 2	Hello, Did you ever find a solution? I am experiencing the exact same problem. Although I recently changed the batteries and the new roll i've shot doesn't have this issue on it at all. Not sure if the batteries were related or coincidental. Pentax 645 Producing Dark Area on Negatives \| Pentax 645,645N,645N? and 645D \| Flickr

05-09-2018, 01:34 PM	#29
lightproof New Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 12	Originally posted by rpsez I emailed Eric to make sure he handles the 645N. He does although he doesn't stock parts for the 645N and (if needed) they can take up to a month to get from Pentax. ... Off to Eric this beast goes! I have the same issue with my 645NII which I got used some time ago. The camera was in perfect condition when I got it and internal film counter was showing only 2 rolls of film shot in total prior to me (not sure if the counter can be reset). I have shot 18 rolls since then and I've only had 2, maybe 3 of those half-frames. Whether it is a lot or not, it's quite frustrating to have a tool you can't count on. rpsez, have you managed to fix your camera? Have anyone else successfully fixed theirs? Any feedback would be appreciated.

05-09-2018, 02:41 PM	#30
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by lightproof rpsez, have you managed to fix your camera? Originally posted by eaaronross Did you ever find a solution? The last post before these two was six years ago. Originally posted by rpsez After the studio class that I'm currently using it for is over, it'll be on its way to Eric for a proper CLA. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ CLA is the magic word (clean, lube, adjust). Professional tools are designed to be dependable and the key to having a tool you can count on is regular maintenance or at least a visit to the shop when problems arise. Shutter capping and similar curtain timing/travel* issues are a common indication of a need for maintenance. The number of shutter cycles is a red herring as is general condition. @rpsez has not been on this site since 2013, but if he gets the notification (the "@"), perhaps he will let us know how his repair went. Steve *In the OP's case it was probably oxidized lubricant (or similar) slowing the leading curtain near the end of its travel.