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02-12-2012, 08:02 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Makten Quote
Yeah, but it could also be better lenses, better de-Bayering interpolation, or a combination of lots of things.
That's why I wrote "I suppose it might be..."


QuoteOriginally posted by Makten Quote
Comparing images from different sources is seldom fair.
I agree in general terms. But try to look from this side: Nikon gave the new D800 to a few photographers who produced thousands of images to prove the world the power of the new camera. There's a reason why Nikon selected these images to publish: Because they were the best. If not, they wouldn't be selected...

So that's why I think is ok (in this special case) to compare images from different sources.

.

02-15-2012, 03:53 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Makten Quote
In my opinion, NOT comparing them would be ridiculous. The D800(E) is one fourth of the cost of a 645D with almost as large sensor and almost as many pixels, PLUS a huuuuge range of lenses that are also much faster (shorter DOF, et cetera).
That's right, any photograph should calculate the Megapixel / Cost ratio of DSLR's sensor in order to secure he is going to buy the best one.
02-15-2012, 04:22 PM   #48
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QuoteQuote:
And smaller pixels means more pixels and thus more signal,
Oh sorry, I thought you'd see it... photons are signal, not the number of receptors. When the signal gets spread around to more receptors (pixels) . You get a higher noise to signal ratio.. so smaller pixels doesn't mean more signal...usually it means more noise. That being said there are so many other factors involved it's hard to say anything will be true, just that all other things being equal, they will be true. Immediately after saying that you have to put in the caveat, all things are never equal.

But you tell me then, have you seen a smaller sensor out perform a larger one.. sensors of the same era?
02-16-2012, 04:34 AM   #49
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The images of the D800 apparently show that FF higher resolution sensors show up the limitations of older lenses. I wonder what that might means for the Pentax FA limiteds on such a sensor because they were not designed to perform at that level.
All speculating, of course, that the K-2 ever were to see the light of day outside the Pentax labs!

02-16-2012, 04:52 AM   #50
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The advantage of the 645D's sensor size being smaller than 645 frame on film is that you get a crop so therefore usually sharper than if the sensor was the same size as the film frame. This was found with FF 35mm cameras and using 5D mk2 I found the limitations of some of my lenses.
02-16-2012, 04:57 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smolk Quote
The images of the D800 apparently show that FF higher resolution sensors show up the limitations of older lenses. I wonder what that might means for the Pentax FA limiteds on such a sensor because they were not designed to perform at that level.
I use the Pentax SMC 43mm f/1.9 special - in Leica 39mm screwmount and it performs superbly on the full frame 18Mp Leica M9 - the 43mm is particularly impressive at f/4 where it rivals the resolution of the Leica summilux-m 50mm f/1.4 ASPH, and the pentax lens has superior flare tolerance compared to the Leica 50mm lens.
02-16-2012, 05:28 AM   #52
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The 'defects' of a lens re' CA are magnified 1.5x on the APS-C sensor because we enlarge the shot to fill the same output format. The noise from the sensor of the D800 would be similar to that of the K-5 based on Pixel size/density but the 'so-called' resolution would be dependent on extra enlargement to access that detail. The old argument that APS-C was inferior because of that extra noise is no longer a criticism because FF sensors have 'caught up' and the FF world is now about to suffer the same limitations that the APS-C world has been dealing with for a few years. I guess we'll find out just how good a Nikon lens really is soon enough.
02-16-2012, 07:51 AM   #53
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I'd be really interested in folks posting why they think the Nikon sensor is in some way inferior... it didn't take me long to post part of the image that led me to believe it was pretty good... I know everyone on the internet is an expert, that can never be challenged but when I see, the image I posted was a taxing image for any photographer, low light, outside light through the windows back lit... someone says it's fuzzy at the edges... but that's a function of the lens not the sensor. I've looked all over that image with the loupe, so 1:1. I think the guys who say there's something wrong with that image probably have fuzzy monitors. Clean the grime off them so you can see properly dudes. But, I posted what I thought was relevant... I don't have a lot of use for people who make blanket statements. I hate it when Canikon users make them about Pentax product, while it's more foregivable for Pentax users, I still want to know what their talking about. Which posted image do people have problems with, and why? When I looked at the Nikon images I thought "sharper than my K20D with the DA*60-250. ". I don't need that level of sharpness or that size of and I wouldn't pay anything for it.. (although if it came with the camera at at the K-5 price I'd take it) ,I just don't need that size of file...but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledged that it looks good.

02-16-2012, 12:40 PM   #54
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I think we agree basically this must be an excellent sensor.
Let's wait and see a bit further, how it performs through the entire test data sheet.
But once again, it will have no greater sense to compare it with 645D, than to other FF, particulaly D700 and D3x.
02-16-2012, 05:36 PM   #55
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Aren't they completely different systems aimed for different photographers?
The 645D is aimed more towards pro landscape photogs, or studio photogs, where you would shoot at lower ISO and you likely would have a tripod.
On the other hand, I think the D800 would be more of an enthusiast, advanced amateur camera. You would probably go for the D4 if you were a full time sports photog, but the higher pixel count of the D800 would be nice for telephoto work, where you want tighter crops, as well some landscape work.
02-16-2012, 06:04 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I think the D800 would be more of an enthusiast, advanced amateur camera.
Don't you think it's a bit early to start pigeon holing cameras? the D800 with its 36Mp full frame sensor would be complete and utter overkill even for an advanced amateur, I find that hand holding a 645D with longer lenses (200mm and up) I have to use a shutter speed that is two~three stops faster than the focal length of the lens in order to get the image perfectly crisp, because with such a high resolution sensor motion blur on subjects and from camera motion is going to be more obvious especially for pixel-peepers.
02-16-2012, 06:12 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Don't you think it's a bit early to start pigeon holing cameras? the D800 with its 36Mp full frame sensor would be complete and utter overkill even for an advanced amateur, I find that hand holding a 645D with longer lenses (200mm and up) I have to use a shutter speed that is two~three stops faster than the focal length of the lens in order to get the image perfectly crisp, because with such a high resolution sensor motion blur on subjects and from camera motion is going to be more obvious especially for pixel-peepers.
Maybe a little early...but the D800 is priced in the advanced amateur/enthusiast category.
And the D800 is actually smaller than the D700, which out to help with the handholding aspect, as well as VR lenses.
02-16-2012, 06:55 PM   #58
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Indeed it is early, and price will have an impact on the demographic that this camera appeals to. The fact that the D800 is smaller than the D700 makes hand holding a bit more challenging for people like me. I prefer big heavy cameras - because their added mass actually help dampen sharpness-killing vibrations, hence my preference for the 645D
02-16-2012, 07:49 PM   #59
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That's what they call The Medium Format Bitch Slap. Down Nikon, Down! Sit....

I would love to see some real tests down the line. However if I recall there were some leaked images on a dudes flickr who had D800 shots and H4D-40 shots... The H4D-40 pictures had a level of clarity that the D800 just didn't get close to.
02-16-2012, 09:23 PM   #60
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Here a few points I have observed that may be pertinent to the discussion. The new Nikon 36 meg sensor is not, to the best of my knowledge, a Nikon-produced device. I think we all agree it is produced by SONY. We probably all agree that both Nikon and particularly Pentax, implement SONY sensors and attendant in-camera processing to a better degree than does SONY.

The SONY 16 meg sensor used in both Nikon and Pentax cameras (K5) is a great sensor and in my opinion, just about the optimum size and performance for an APS-C sensor. The 24 meg version and now the FF 36 meg sensor, I believe to be extensions of the same technologies in the 16 meg device and as you would expect, high ISO performance suffers in the 24 meg version and likely in the 36 meg FF version, as well.

Although Nikon will likely use their processing expertise to extract every bit of performance out of the 36 meg sensor, the upper ISO spec of the D800 is not in the stratospheric range of the new Canon 17 meg sensor or the K-5 with the 16 meg.

I found it interesting to go to DP Review and compare the raw files from the K-5 and 645D with the SONY N7, all at ISO 1600. As implemented in the N7, it has the worst noise performance of the three bodies. For many, high ISO performance is not a critical issue but for those of us shooting nightscapes or in low light situations, it is a matter of concern.

The 645D does a better than adequate job at 1600 while the K-5 is superb and still great at 3200 or beyond, depending on circumstances. Hats off to Nikon, assuming they do a superior job of implementing the 24 and 36 meg sensors than SONY. The performance of the 24 meg sensor as implemented in the N7 is of no interest to me for my type of shooting.
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