Nikon D800E vs Pentax 645D

JinDesu · 03-15-2012, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Anvh

test photos, RAW and jpg online.
Not the E version though
Nikon D800 Camera Samples - First Shots

Much better samples!

But definitely does not beat the 645D then.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/645D/645DA7.HTM

Selecting the ISO100 NR off sample, you can definitely see more detail in the 645D pictures - as well as being more MP anyways. Is it worth the $7000 difference? I don't know!

So it looks like the D800 is pretty damn good.

Last edited by JinDesu; 03-15-2012 at 12:22 PM.

Yamanobori · 03-15-2012, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by JinDesu

Much better samples!

But definitely does not beat the 645D then.
Pentax 645D Camera Samples - Initial Test

Selecting the ISO100 NR off sample, you can definitely see more detail in the 645D pictures - as well as being more MP anyways. Is it worth the $7000 difference? I don't know!

So it looks like the D800 is pretty damn good.

The difference in pixels is less than 4% in resolving power. Not really a factor. But it is a good thing the Nikon has an AA filter or the beer label would have moire too.

Since I have been taking pictures for more than a year equivalent to about $4700 in film and processing costs, the difference is only about $2300 now and I still have to wait.

Anvh · 03-15-2012, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Yamanobori

But it is a good thing the Nikon has an AA filter or the beer label would have moire too.

Is it really that bad? If so than i'm curious about how useful the D800e version will be...

eddie1960 · 03-15-2012, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Anvh

Is it really that bad? If so than i'm curious about how useful the D800e version will be...

not so sure it's as bad as it's made out myself. a number of excellent cameras have no AA filter (though they all are CCD technology)

bossa · 03-15-2012, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

I use the Pentax SMC 43mm f/1.9 special - in Leica 39mm screwmount and it performs superbly on the full frame 18Mp Leica M9 - the 43mm is particularly impressive at f/4 where it rivals the resolution of the Leica summilux-m 50mm f/1.4 ASPH, and the Pentax lens has superior flare tolerance compared to the Leica 50mm lens.

That's the important thing here. If the sensors have the same (or close) pixel number but one is APS-C and the other a FF, then the lens on the FF is NOT magnifying the lens faults whereas the APS-C is actually magnifying them 1.5x. So all the nasty stuff people expect from the lenses don't show up until you get a 36mpx sensor that people immediately start pixel peeing on to see how much they can get out of it. Don't forget that smaller pixels also record camera shake a lot more too.. I'm starting to think that Nikon should really have produced a 24mpx FF instead of the D800 now.

Thanks for that gem of a line Doug.

Yamanobori · 03-15-2012, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Anvh

Is it really that bad? If so than i'm curious about how useful the D800e version will be...

Did you look at the 100 ISO sample image from the 645D?

Roberts · 03-16-2012, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by chicagonature

Nikon D800E vs. D800: Which is more Diffraction Limited?

The Technical Guide to the Nikon D800/D800E was just published and I believe it is saying that the D800E (the one with effectively no anti-aliasing filter) is more Diffraction Limited than the D800. Here's the quote, "The D800E offers better resolution at apertures where diffraction is not an issue. The effects of aperture may therefore be more noticeable than with the D800, and care may be required to avoid loss of definition due to diffraction." Does this makes sense from a physics point of view? I mean, shouldn't it be just the opposite of what Nikon is saying because the Nikon D800 is causing the Airy Disk to be a little bit larger due to the increased blurring caused by the anti-aliasing filter? Plus, Nikon uses the word "may" and they show images from the D800, not the D800E. It's confusing.

I guess they meant that on D800E because of more clearly visible details there is more visible effect of diffraction, too.

Quote from todays article on Luminous landscape Nikon-D800-or-D800e :

"Use the optimum aperture. Apertures below about f/11 introduce diffraction and effectively act as an unintentional AA filter"

jwoodland · 03-16-2012, 03:24 AM

So if you have the 800E and need a little AA filter, you just have to stop down? Two cameras in one!

JinDesu · 03-16-2012, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by Roberts

I guess they meant that on D800E because of more clearly visible details there is more visible effect of diffraction, too.

Quote from todays article on Luminous landscape Nikon-D800-or-D800e :

"Use the optimum aperture. Apertures below about f/11 introduce diffraction and effectively act as an unintentional AA filter"

Will it get rid of the moire effect in patterned surfaces?

**Digitalis** · 03-16-2012, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by JinDesu

Will it get rid of the moire effect in patterned surfaces?

yep, that is how I deal with patterned surfaces that cause moire with my Leica M9 - though most RF lenses only stop down to f/16. But diffraction will also kill detail in pretty much everything else too.

Coeurdechene · 03-16-2012, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by bossa

Don't forget that smaller pixels also record camera shake a lot more too.. I'm starting to think that Nikon should really have produced a 24mpx FF instead of the D800 now.

Remember: the d800 has about the same pixel pitch as the k5, the size of the pixels is very similar...have you got problems with camera shake on your k5? if you haven't you will not have them on the d800.
Also Camera shake is much more visible if viewed at 100%...if your viewing size is small you won't see more camera shake than with a 12MP sensor...Camera shake negates some of the advantage of the high resolution but it does not make things worse than with lower MP cameras. Bottom line if you want to fully profit from the higher resolution you got to use a faster shutter speed or a tripod. If you don't need huge prints you can still use the d800 as it was a d700 and get good results for a moderate print size.

Anvh · 03-16-2012, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Yamanobori

Did you look at the 100 ISO sample image from the 645D?

Yes but i haven't seen the images of the D800 because i ain't behind my pc, that's why i asked for a bit more information.

I have even worked with the 645D, it's an amazing camera but a bit slow though.
I'm waiting for the upgrade, the new processor and UHS sd-bus would be a nice upgrade, they can keep the sensor because it's really good.

**Digitalis** · 03-16-2012, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by Coeurdechene

have you got problems with camera shake on your k5? if you haven't you will not have them on the d800

The D800 doesn't have in-body image stabilisation so that is a bit of a pointless comparison. With my D3s camera shake isn't an issue hand holding a 50mm lens at 1/4th second shutter speeds - VR lenses extend hand holding techniques to produce sharp results even at 1s.

Anvh · 03-16-2012, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

The D800 doesn't have in-body image stabilisation so that is a bit of a pointless comparison. With my D3s camera shake isn't an issue hand holding a 50mm lens at 1/4th second shutter speeds - VR lenses extend hand holding techniques to produce sharp results even at 1s.

At longer shutterspeed the shake of your hands isn't the problem but it's damn hard to keep the camera pointed the right direction XD

RonHendriks1966 · 03-16-2012, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by jwoodland

So if you have the 800E and need a little AA filter, you just have to stop down? Two cameras in one!

On the chance of asking the stupidest question of the year:

Can you put a filter on the lens that has the function of a missing AA filter?

03-16-2012, 02:46 AM	#82
Roberts Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Latvia Photos: Gallery Posts: 127	Originally posted by chicagonature Nikon D800E vs. D800: Which is more Diffraction Limited? The Technical Guide to the Nikon D800/D800E was just published and I believe it is saying that the D800E (the one with effectively no anti-aliasing filter) is more Diffraction Limited than the D800. Here's the quote, "The D800E offers better resolution at apertures where diffraction is not an issue. The effects of aperture may therefore be more noticeable than with the D800, and care may be required to avoid loss of definition due to diffraction." Does this makes sense from a physics point of view? I mean, shouldn't it be just the opposite of what Nikon is saying because the Nikon D800 is causing the Airy Disk to be a little bit larger due to the increased blurring caused by the anti-aliasing filter? Plus, Nikon uses the word "may" and they show images from the D800, not the D800E. It's confusing. I guess they meant that on D800E because of more clearly visible details there is more visible effect of diffraction, too. Quote from todays article on Luminous landscape Nikon-D800-or-D800e : "Use the optimum aperture. Apertures below about f/11 introduce diffraction and effectively act as an unintentional AA filter"

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03-15-2012, 12:15 PM	#76
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Originally posted by Anvh test photos, RAW and jpg online. Not the E version though Nikon D800 Camera Samples - First Shots Much better samples! But definitely does not beat the 645D then. http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/645D/645DA7.HTM Selecting the ISO100 NR off sample, you can definitely see more detail in the 645D pictures - as well as being more MP anyways. Is it worth the $7000 difference? I don't know! So it looks like the D800 is pretty damn good. Last edited by JinDesu; 03-15-2012 at 12:22 PM.

03-15-2012, 12:29 PM	#77
Yamanobori Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 573	Originally posted by JinDesu Much better samples! But definitely does not beat the 645D then. Pentax 645D Camera Samples - Initial Test Selecting the ISO100 NR off sample, you can definitely see more detail in the 645D pictures - as well as being more MP anyways. Is it worth the $7000 difference? I don't know! So it looks like the D800 is pretty damn good. The difference in pixels is less than 4% in resolving power. Not really a factor. But it is a good thing the Nikon has an AA filter or the beer label would have moire too. Since I have been taking pictures for more than a year equivalent to about $4700 in film and processing costs, the difference is only about $2300 now and I still have to wait.

03-15-2012, 01:01 PM	#78
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by Yamanobori But it is a good thing the Nikon has an AA filter or the beer label would have moire too. Is it really that bad? If so than i'm curious about how useful the D800e version will be...

03-15-2012, 01:38 PM	#79
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,667	Originally posted by Anvh Is it really that bad? If so than i'm curious about how useful the D800e version will be... not so sure it's as bad as it's made out myself. a number of excellent cameras have no AA filter (though they all are CCD technology)

03-15-2012, 03:05 PM	#80
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by Digitalis I use the Pentax SMC 43mm f/1.9 special - in Leica 39mm screwmount and it performs superbly on the full frame 18Mp Leica M9 - the 43mm is particularly impressive at f/4 where it rivals the resolution of the Leica summilux-m 50mm f/1.4 ASPH, and the Pentax lens has superior flare tolerance compared to the Leica 50mm lens. That's the important thing here. If the sensors have the same (or close) pixel number but one is APS-C and the other a FF, then the lens on the FF is NOT magnifying the lens faults whereas the APS-C is actually magnifying them 1.5x. So all the nasty stuff people expect from the lenses don't show up until you get a 36mpx sensor that people immediately start pixel peeing on to see how much they can get out of it. Don't forget that smaller pixels also record camera shake a lot more too.. I'm starting to think that Nikon should really have produced a 24mpx FF instead of the D800 now. Thanks for that gem of a line Doug.

03-15-2012, 03:56 PM	#81
Yamanobori Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 573	Originally posted by Anvh Is it really that bad? If so than i'm curious about how useful the D800e version will be... Did you look at the 100 ISO sample image from the 645D?

03-16-2012, 03:24 AM	#83
jwoodland Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Arkansas Posts: 96	So if you have the 800E and need a little AA filter, you just have to stop down? Two cameras in one!

03-16-2012, 03:42 AM	#84
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Originally posted by Roberts I guess they meant that on D800E because of more clearly visible details there is more visible effect of diffraction, too. Quote from todays article on Luminous landscape Nikon-D800-or-D800e : "Use the optimum aperture. Apertures below about f/11 introduce diffraction and effectively act as an unintentional AA filter" Will it get rid of the moire effect in patterned surfaces?

03-16-2012, 03:55 AM	#85
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by JinDesu Will it get rid of the moire effect in patterned surfaces? yep, that is how I deal with patterned surfaces that cause moire with my Leica M9 - though most RF lenses only stop down to f/16. But diffraction will also kill detail in pretty much everything else too.

03-16-2012, 05:48 AM	#86
Coeurdechene Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: madrid Photos: Albums Posts: 833	Originally posted by bossa Don't forget that smaller pixels also record camera shake a lot more too.. I'm starting to think that Nikon should really have produced a 24mpx FF instead of the D800 now. Remember: the d800 has about the same pixel pitch as the k5, the size of the pixels is very similar...have you got problems with camera shake on your k5? if you haven't you will not have them on the d800. Also Camera shake is much more visible if viewed at 100%...if your viewing size is small you won't see more camera shake than with a 12MP sensor...Camera shake negates some of the advantage of the high resolution but it does not make things worse than with lower MP cameras. Bottom line if you want to fully profit from the higher resolution you got to use a faster shutter speed or a tripod. If you don't need huge prints you can still use the d800 as it was a d700 and get good results for a moderate print size.

03-16-2012, 06:04 AM	#87
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by Yamanobori Did you look at the 100 ISO sample image from the 645D? Yes but i haven't seen the images of the D800 because i ain't behind my pc, that's why i asked for a bit more information. I have even worked with the 645D, it's an amazing camera but a bit slow though. I'm waiting for the upgrade, the new processor and UHS sd-bus would be a nice upgrade, they can keep the sensor because it's really good.

03-16-2012, 06:07 AM	#88
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Coeurdechene have you got problems with camera shake on your k5? if you haven't you will not have them on the d800 The D800 doesn't have in-body image stabilisation so that is a bit of a pointless comparison. With my D3s camera shake isn't an issue hand holding a 50mm lens at 1/4th second shutter speeds - VR lenses extend hand holding techniques to produce sharp results even at 1s.

03-16-2012, 06:34 AM	#89
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by Digitalis The D800 doesn't have in-body image stabilisation so that is a bit of a pointless comparison. With my D3s camera shake isn't an issue hand holding a 50mm lens at 1/4th second shutter speeds - VR lenses extend hand holding techniques to produce sharp results even at 1s. At longer shutterspeed the shake of your hands isn't the problem but it's damn hard to keep the camera pointed the right direction XD

03-16-2012, 06:37 AM	#90
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by jwoodland So if you have the 800E and need a little AA filter, you just have to stop down? Two cameras in one! On the chance of asking the stupidest question of the year: Can you put a filter on the lens that has the function of a missing AA filter?